CASA - Space Ship Central

donsig · Feb 24, 2009

Assuming we can pull this off in the minimum time we'll need 14 turns to research the techs and one more turn to complete the SS and launch. That's 15 turns of production. I began by looking at getting the maximum battleship prebuilds our 4 top ports and using these for the 320s parts. It would take 6 non-mobilized turns to accumulate rest of the 320 shields in The Admiralty, The Meeting Room, The Red Tape and The Phoenix. I gathered total production figures assuming we have 9 turns of mobilization bonus and 6 turns regular production:

Spoiler :

We have eight cities that can't even build the 160s parts in time.
The Nursery, The Marina and The Shallows might be able to build a 160s part if production can be tweaked.
The New Yard can do a 160s part.
The Pier might be able to do a 320s part if tweaked.
The Red Tape, The Meeting Room, Chamsuri's Cove, The Phoenix and The Bayou can do 320s parts.
The Arboretum, The Igloo and The Aerie might be able to build Apollo if production can be increased but we must remember there is one less turn for Apollo than the SS parts.
The Institute, The Admiralty and The Silo can build Apollo.
The Chamber, The Gulag and The Treasury can build the 640s parts.

That's as far as I've gotten so far.

donsig · Feb 24, 2009

OK, I've put together a rough pre-build plan for our spaceship. The following assumptions are used:

Spoiler :

Here's the list of cities doing pre-builds:

Spoiler :

There is an extra pre-build for each size part. (The extra 640s pre-build also backs up Apollo). The production levels in some cities will have to be tweaked but I think this is doable.
These cities can just build wealth from here on out:

Spoiler :

The Arboretum, The Aerie and The Igloo can build wealth for a couple turns before beginning their pre-build duty. The Admiralty can build wealth for 5 turns after finishing the nuke sub it has already begun. This will generate about 2950g of the 3699g we need. We can get the remaining gold by shutting off research for one turn. (See timetable below.)
These cities have shields in their bins. We must decide if we'll continue the builds or build something less expensive and then switch to wealth:

Spoiler :

They would all make 1gpt building wealth so each city would be worth 15g over 15 turns.

Timetable:

Turn 255: Turn off research, continue existing builds, begin pre-builds were necessary, otherwise build wealth
Turn 256: Begin research of space flight @ 100%
Turn 260: Lower research to 60%
Turn 261: Learn space flight, set research back to 100%, start satellites
Turn 265: Learn satellites, start superconductor, demobilize
Turn 269: Lower research to 60%
Turn 270: Learn superconductor, build Apollo
Turn 271: Build all spaceship parts, launch, win.

Yilar · Feb 24, 2009

I still think we could build Apollo before. I doubt they are gonna inspect all our cities. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

It may be be a bit early to say for sure, but I think we should do satellites last, that is one tech we don't want them to steal.

Your plan sounds good Donsiq, it will be interesting to see if we can get it work

Also I think we should ditch the builds in The Whale Pond.
The Hide Away can produce a worker and then wealth.
The Beach can produce a coastal fortress which we can sell the following turn for 10 gold and then wealth.
The Greenhouse can produce a settler which can be joined into one of the other cities as 2 pop and then wealth.
The Squeeze and The Dislodged should produce a regular submarine or mobile sam before wealth.

Also for security reason switching The Squeeze and The Ways may be an idea. The Squeeze is located in the "hot" zone, where we may have to disband cities to limit potential targets, The Ways is not in such a zone.

Niklas · Feb 25, 2009

I like the plan in general, but I would prefer not to build Apollo in a coastal location. Those seem to me to be by far the most vulnerable.

donsig · Feb 25, 2009

Niklas said:
I like the plan in general, but I would prefer not to build Apollo in a coastal location. Those seem to me to be by far the most vulnerable.

I understand your concern but the shortage of pre-builds in mobilization hinders us a bit. The Admiralty can use a battleship pre-build and still get to 500s (but not 640s) so it is a good fit for Apollo. Bear in mind that we do have an extra 640s pre-build and our rivals will have only one turn to destroy Apollo anyway.

Summary: We need two turns of zero research to gather gold. (Or do one turn of zero research and find 500g some other way.) Also, rough plan had to change since The Bayou and The Phoenix were not viable for 320s pre-builds. Had to swap them for The Institute and The Silo (after we demobilize). Things are very tight, though two turns of zero research gives us some gold to work with. I estimate a 393g surplus when we finish teching. Beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech. Of the 14 prebuilds half have overages of 4 shields or less. Pollution could easily wreak havoc though our extra pre-builds help guard against this as well as sabotage. I've had to update some of the data I posted earlier. I left the prior posts alone and just include the new data here. I'll also try to attach my spreadsheet though I use Open Office.

Turn 255:

Spoiler :

Raw beakers and gold numbers:

Spoiler :

Research time and costs:

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Production figures:

Spoiler :

MM Schedule:

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Impact on treasury:

Spoiler :

Paul#42 · Feb 25, 2009

Quite a plan! I'll try to check... :scan:

edit:
Quite optimistic, that one - of course.
No riots please, no hostile assault... :shifty:

Rather than forfeiting the shields in The Beach, The Greenhouse and The Hideaway I'd have some more subs - and maybe some more air defense if it helps against stealth attacks... :run:

Did I get it right that we'd stop research in #270 and keep building till #272? :dubious:

Are you sure that we're not into deficite before?
Shouldn't we finish the space ship the turn after finishing the final tech? :hmm:

edit 2: Ah, got it (I think :crazyeye:

), the zero-Research should be at the start...

donsig · Feb 25, 2009

Paul#42 said:
Quite optimistic, that one - of course.
No riots please, no hostile assault...

All bets are off if we're invaded again. But we need to carry on assuming we'll be able to withstand another attack if it comes.

Paul#42 said:
Rather than forfeiting the shields in The Beach, The Greenhouse and The Hideaway I'd have some more subs - and maybe some more air defense if it helps against stealth attacks...

I doubt jets or SAMs will help much against stealth bombers. We could continue with more subs.

Paul#42 said:
Did I get it right that we'd stop research in #270 and keep building till #272? ...

edit 2: Ah, got it (I think ), the zero-Research should be at the start...

The first version of the plan had only one turn of zero research. When I realized we'd be short almost 500g I added another zero research turn and probably just forgot to edit part of the plan when I shifted everything down a turn.

I think I did not get things right with respect to the amount of shields we can stock up during mobilization. I wanted to get as close to the max as possible but think I got too close and the pre-build would actually build on the turn we plan to demobilize. I'll check that tomorrow.

AutomatedTeller · Feb 26, 2009

can we jigger some of our northwest costal cities to be more production and apollo prebuild sites? I ask, cause everyone is going to assume our southeast powerhouses will build the vital parts, but one enormous advantage of being commercial is that those cities are less corrupt than they are for FREE or SABER.

donsig · Feb 26, 2009

I'll take a look at the NW cities. I did look at the plan this morning and there are some cities that would build battleships the turn we planned to leave mobilization. The easiest way to fix that is to just drop out of mobilization a turn early - this doesn't alter the gold situation - but does leave 4 cities short of their shield goal. It's only 28s total (less than 10s per city) and I think they can be made up. Will look at it later and hope to play the save this evening.

dl123654 · Feb 26, 2009

Looks like a great plan, looks like you put a lot of work into it :goodjob:

The one thing that still troubles me is the use of wonders for prebuilds for as long as we are going to be.

If I'm reading your chart correctly we need to switch to wonders on 262 Arboretum and Aerie. I think thats going to be the red flag to everyone.

My plan had us demobilize and use manufactoring plants to prebuild, that will give us till turn 265 to switch to the wonders, not much better, that will also mess up the a lot of cities that are depending on the extra shields. In that respect your plan is good as is because I can't think of a way to greatly improve that. Maybe we can start a campain in the UN forum wanting to give them a building to conduct their business in and while we want peace we will back our words with nuclear weapons.

Remember we will need the back up prebuild cities to switch to something else the last turn. The 640 backup can go to a wonder, likewise with the 320 backup. The 160 one can switch to a manufactoring plant. I have a feeling if we make it that far one of those pieces will be destroyed as everyone rushes for our continent.

Niklas · Feb 26, 2009

Very impressive, great work donsig! :thumbsup:

The one thing that worries me is that "beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech", which means a single polluted tile pretty much anywhere will cost us a turn. The shields for prebuilds are less of a problem, but the research is very vulnerable it seems... :shifty:

AutomatedTeller · Feb 26, 2009

I think we may have another problem.

Once we build Apollo, our opponents know we can win.

We have 1 source of rubber which we need an improvement to hold... and FREE has stealth bombers, which can cut improvements.

We may need to rush walls, coastal fortress, harbor, lib, temple and other inexpensive improvements in that little city to keep FREE from cutting all the improvements and our access to rubber - without which, we can't build a part.

Other option may be to build apollo, then the one part that needs rubber, then go back to researching - that tips our hand, however.

Other other option is to take out FREE cities that could be holding stealth bombers near that city.

Yilar · Feb 26, 2009

If they do bomb the airport we can always rush a harbor, they would have to sabotage the build every turn if they were to stop us, and there is nothing that prevents us from taking one of the other rubber islands for a turn. Also sooner or later the spy will fail.

The whole plan revolves around surprise, so building the part early is out of the question.

donsig · Feb 26, 2009

Niklas said:
The one thing that worries me is that "beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech", which means a single polluted tile pretty much anywhere will cost us a turn. The shields for prebuilds are less of a problem, but the research is very vulnerable it seems...

Yes research is vulnerable but we can track pollution and more importantly, since we have a 300g leeway we can switch some taxmen over to scientists on the last research turn for each tech. Back-up is the name of the game now. We're using three extra prebuilds so a few extra scientists are in order.

dl123654 said:
Remember we will need the back up prebuild cities to switch to something else the last turn. The 640 backup can go to a wonder, likewise with the 320 backup. The 160 one can switch to a manufactoring plant. I have a feeling if we make it that far one of those pieces will be destroyed as everyone rushes for our continent.

We'll also have the palace available for a pre-build once we return to a regular economy.

dl123654 said:
If I'm reading your chart correctly we need to switch to wonders on 262 Arboretum and Aerie. I think thats going to be the red flag to everyone.

The Aerie would have to switch on turn 261 since it's largest pre-build is an airport. The Arboretum and The Igloo have only armor for pre-builds so they can only go one turn before using a wonder. (Well, one of these three can use Battlefield Medicine.)

donsig · Feb 26, 2009

Ok, I think we can adjust those four cities to keep them from building the battleships and still make up the needed shields during the regular economy.

The Admiralty starts it's pre-build one turn later without reducing it's mobilization shield output. Two turns at 72 spt (plus turn 266 works same tiles for 50 spt) then in the regular economy beginning on turn 267 it will have to take some tiles form The Chamber to get up to 60 spt.
The Pier runs at 25 spt (with +2 food/turn) during mobilization, plus has to lose at least 1s before turn 266. Then it swaps over to all 4 mountain tiles (and a food shortage) during the regular economy. It may have to work a couple less mountains on the last turn to avoid starving.
The Meeting Room does bg to tax man for one turn (#261), then does the airfield tile swap with The Arboretum as planned, and on the last two turns needs another bg from The Arboretum (which gets the dyes tile from The Institute).
The Red Tape almost made me throw in the towel but it did shed some light on the whole process. It should start its pre-build a turn later. Three turns at 28spt and 3 more at 30spt during mobilization (by changing tax man to a cop). Then during the regular economy it does 24spt - which leaves it two short!!! All the tiles it is working already make 2spt or more and all the good tiles are taken by The Meeting Room and Arboretum!!! Then I realized that on the very last turn we won't be researching so we can raise the lux slider. Nice insurance, allowing us to put clowns and tax men to work making back up shields. Trouble is, The Red Tape is so corrupt that putting the cop to work makes less shields! Then I realized I was so focused on this (to me unnatural) MMing that I forgot we can alter tiles. Mining a couple irrigated tiles should get The Red Tape where it needs to be.

Now, the big question: How, exactly, does dropping from mobilization affect the shields that go into the bin? I've assumed it works like this:

On turn 266 we ask Whomp to send peace with accept.
We open our turn 267 save and the first thing we see is BABE's peace offer (with accept). We accept and immediately go back to normal economy and so there are no more shield bonuses.

If I am wrong and the shield bonuses still get added on turn 267 (the turn we accept BABE's peace) then we''l have 4 new battleships and 4 less pre-builds and that would be bad. :badcomp:

Paul#42 · Feb 27, 2009

IIRC diplomatic actions are set before production phase so the end of mobilization should take place before shields are calculated. :hmm:

But I'd be glad if anybody could test / know for sure.

donsig · Apr 17, 2009

Here's a summary of my latest attemp at a pre-build scheme:

Code:

City	        Item	Shields	preb.	lost wealth
The Aerie	Extra	640	1000	600
The Arboretum	Engine	640	1000	552
The Igloo	casing	640	800	572
The Treasury	Extra	500	500	504
The Gulag	Apollo	500	500	500
The Admiralty	Extra	320	200	350
The Institute	Cockpit	320	200	360
The Silo	Life s.	320	200	378
The Pier	Stasis	320	200	260
The Meetng. Rm.	Thrust.	320	200	298
The Shallows	Extra	160	200	0
The Marina	D. bay	160	160	0
Chamsuri's Cove	Fuel	160	160	0
The New Yard	lounge	160	160	0
The Nursery	S/sup.	160	160	0
				
			Total lost	4374
			deficit	         924

It differs from the original mainly by the addition of an extra pre-build (for Apollo). It needs very little tile shifting and has some nice overages in case of pollution.

A few problems exist though. A small one is a few cities need to cut back on war time production to avoid building the battleships. Trouble is that some of the overages equal what needs to be lost making things tight. The big problems are we're 924g short so we might want to lose some of the insurance pre-builds. (There are four.) Also, tomasjj asked about shaving a turn off superconductor. It's possible but we'd need a few more scientists - in addition to turning all our taxmen into scientists for 5 turns. That's another 300g bringing the deficit to about 1200g. It also puts a strain on some of the pre-builds since there is one less turn.

I need a break from this but I'll try to come up with something getting us superconductor in 5 turns with maybe only one or two insurance pre-builds and see if that works.

donsig · Apr 18, 2009

The pre-builds:

Spoiler :

MM stuff:

Spoiler :

Other notes:

Spoiler :

Pre-build notes:

Spoiler :

Research:

Spoiler :

Summary:
Turn 265: Learn space flight
Turn 270: Learn superconductor. Make peace with Babe and demobilize.
Turn 271: First turn without mobilization shield bonus.
Turn 275: Learn satellites. Build Apollo.
Turn 276: Launch.

Someone else will have to figure out which turn the invasion begins. :gripe:

EDIT: I forgot to say something about our treasury! If my figures are correct then the lowest our treasury will reach is 632g on turn 275 (the turn we learn our last tech and build Apollo). For the last turn we can turn research off. The plan also has all four extra pre-builds (one for each size category).

Niklas · Apr 18, 2009

Superconductor on turn 270, then Satellites in 4 turns should mean turn 274 no?

donsig · Apr 18, 2009

Niklas said:
Superconductor on turn 270, then Satellites in 4 turns should mean turn 274 no?

We can't do satellites in 4 turns. At 90% science (the max we can do since we need the 10% lux) we generate 1757 :science:

(not counting scientists). For 4 turns that's 7028 :science:

Satellites is 7800 :science:

so we need the fifth turn at 40% giving us a total of 7803 :science:

We run 3 scientists each turn as insurance against pollution. 5 turns at 90% is 8785 :science:

. This is only 235 :science:

short of the 9000 for superconductor. 235/5=47 and 47/3=15.6 so by running 16 scientists for those 5 turns we top 9000 :science:

We change a couple more cops to scientists for pollution insurance and we also get superconductor in 5 turns.

I don't have to change the plan. (Until the orange and light blue transports or stealth bombers show up.)

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