Cassandra : How to move CiV forward

[evrett37]

So lets get this out of the way first :: Told you so!

For those that arnt aware, Cassandra was a prophetess cursed by the God Apollo never to be believed by the people she warned. Months before release I pointed out all the signs that the development of Civ 5 was having issues and no one listened. The clearest of those sighs were that we were being advertised at not communicated with. A huge pitfall for any company is losing touch with its customer base and I would say Firaxis fell in that one for sure.

Anyhoo. Civ 5 isn’t a disaster. It didn’t turn out to be moo3. “Just one more turn” is still intact. Some of the new features are a subtle and take a bit to sink in and be appreciated. 1UPH is evolution in flight and pure awesomeness. But as the 100s of threads lamenting the game tell, there are still some not so small issues, many of never should have made it out of beta. (Btw for those of you with a legally purchased copy there are several simple to install mods out there that neuter Steam so you don’t have to ever deal with it, register your copy, or go “online“)

Just imagine what we might have changed if we had organized and used our “hand” as a community. Well..we cant change the past but we can make those meaningful changes now and move forward with the goal of making Civ 5 be the game it certainly has the potential to be.

The first thing we need to do is to establish a non-toxic, non for profit customer-developer culture and relationship. Putting up 100s of whiny threads saying the game sucks is diluting out message. We need to come together as a community with a unified but brief agenda of what we feel needs to be fixed. And we need to make sure that message reaches the people actually working on the game. No more begging for scraps at the 2k table. We need to send a clear message that a 3rd party advertiser not involved with the devolvement living 3000 miles away from Firaxis being assigned as our liaison is unacceptable and disrespectful to the customers. Many other developers have set the communication standard much higher and its about time Firaxis joins us out here on the interwebs. Not just in marketing releases and pod casts.

Unless we want more of the same, there needs to be some accountability here in this community. There is a list posted around here somewhere of the individuals who contributed to Civ 5 development. We as a community need to look inward and ask - did these people do their jobs and honor their responsibilities to the game? Where these people there for the game or there for kickbacks or insure profit from DLC sales. Its not a friendly question to ask. But the results show these people “failed” Civ. Twice. They had a responsibility to make the game the best it could be, and its not the best it can be atm. And they had a responsibility to come out and inform the community that the game would be a little rough at release, to put it mildly. And they didn’t. We don’t need a lynching but we do need to be sure we have strong people who can stand up to the company who have the right motivations to represent this community. At the very least the question should be asked why CiV turned out the way it did while they were "on duty".

Anyhoo I’ll leave it at that for the sake of brevity - We've seen the quality what the status quo will bring us; are we going to make changes or just accept more of the same?

 

[Senethro]

The first thing we need to do is to establish a non-toxic, non for profit customer-developer culture and relationship.

There are so many things wrong with your post but I've quoted the most ridiculous part.

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[Maniacal]

Good luck, you'll need it.

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[Earthling]

It's been suggested/stated by some people that the developers ignored the comments of outside beta-testers and the like, so it's not really their fault, the devs just didn't want to balance the game apparently.

But the Cassandra thing is right on about stuff like the combat system and AI - though it's not really perfectly analogous because plenty of reasonable people did, in fact, see what would be troublesome with the game's development, it's just the typical thing you get when complete newbies don't understand what a game is about and expect something that won't be (and wasn't) true.

 

[Thormodr]

Whether you agree with the Op or not, he/she is right about one thing.

A lot better communication is needed between Firaxis and its customers.

2K Games has been abysmal so far in regards to ciV. Just look at their police state forums where anything critical is deleted unless it is so outrageous that they leave them up as an "example" of how the haters and whiners really are.

We as Civ fans need to tell them that this half baked, unbalanced mess they call ciV is unacceptable.

 

[skallben]

There are so many things wrong with your post but I've quoted the most ridiculous part.

You appeal to what you believe is consensus of the majority and do not even care about refuting his arguments?

 

[Senethro]

You appeal to what you believe is consensus of the majority and do not even care about refuting his arguments?

The guy casts himself in the role of prophet and like religious prophets has interpreted the signs as supporting his prophecy and ignoring contradictions. I see no benefit in engaging with him but just had to point out that he thinks games should be produced on a charitable basis. No doubt he also thinks a non-toxic relationship is the developer doing exactly as he tells them.

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[markieness]

So did you buy the game afterall?

 

[rep1826]

There are so many things wrong with your post but I've quoted the most ridiculous part.

Being currently enrolled in a graduate school of business, I felt compelled to respond to your "criticism" (more like insulting/flaming) of the OP.

I assume you are claiming that his request is "ridiculous" because it requests that developer time be invested in something that is "non-profit" and you believe that to be unrealistic and silly.

It is correct that businesses need to earn profits, and customers need to understand that the profit motive is usually the only way for that their goods and services can be provided on a sustainable and efficient basis.

However, it is important to remember that businesses are not owed profit, they must convince customers to give it to them because those customers value the product highly enough. Demanding a "non-profit" customer service is effectively asking the company to add a marketing expense, and not because the company wants to, but because they have to in order to keep customers buying.

Not understanding this appears to be common, and I would guess is an outgrowth of subtly socialist values becoming ingrained in the welfare state society. The thought process seems to be: "big business is strong, and we the consumers are weak, therefore they set prices and extract profits, we are powerless to do anything except pay them". In fact, I would say the balance of power rests heavily on the demand side in most markets. This makes your misguided appeal to capitalism very...odd. The reality is just the opposite: marketing budgets are huge for most non-commodity products.

Interestingly, this extra marketing expense was unnecessary when Firaxis had a better reputation, before September 21st. Because of a phenomenon called "branding" Firaxis and 2k didn't need to spend money convincing anyone of product quality in the past because they'd released many classic games and never released anything...well, as bad as Civ 5. Yes, there are indeed hidden costs to releasing bad products: no one wants to buy from you again until you convince them they should. Then you have to spend the money convincing them.

Basically, you always pay. It's usually a question of when are how much and to be honest, 2k probably did the right thing for its own sake, since it appears to be in very bad shape and needed money now. However, this will come at a price for both them and Firaxis later (in terms of lost sales) as they erode goodwill with their customers.

In reality, we probably have less market power than we would like and perhaps are not worth the extra expense, but sometimes I really wonder. People say that all the money comes from "casual gamers" and truly marginal (to the point of irrelevancy) revenue comes from people who want a better game.

But Civ IV did very well. It sold 3 million copies! If no one but "the hardcores" care about a quality, well-tested game, then who was valuing IV at so much more than $50? And why on earth did 2k buy Firaxis if they thought Firaxis made a product no one wanted?

My theory is this: either the people who like Civilization for what it was are more numerous than estimated, or that people who aren't "intellectuals" like to intellectualize sometime in their lives, just like nerds prefer social activities over reading/playing games at least occasionally. As another example, the French like to eat at McDonalds because it's "fun", i.e., nobody can be a food snob every day. It just gets tiring. It's fun to be something you're not, even if it's just for a little while. Whoever they were, we can be sure that those 3 million people were somebody.

I think there is room in the market for a good product. Firaxis is going to need to spend money convincing people that they can make that product, so that they will be able to attract repeat business. They used to get repeat business for free, but for many people that will likely not happen again. I agree with the OP.

 

[skallben]

The guy casts himself in the role of prophet and like religious prophets has interpreted the signs as supporting his prophecy and ignoring contradictions. I see no benefit in engaging with him but just had to point out that he thinks games should be produced on a charitable basis. No doubt he also thinks a non-toxic relationship is the developer doing exactly as he tells them.

Evrett, how many non-toxic posts have you made on this forum?

I'm of the opinion that even the village idiot (not saying Evrett is that) deserves freedom of speech, maybe once and then our taken-for-granted-values needs to be questioned if not else so that we remember why they are our values in the first place.

No offense meant, I just think that for the sake of a civil debate it would be more constructive to reply properly. That and "prophets" only seem to win ground by being stigmatized.

 

[Senethro]

I'm of the opinion that even the village idiot (not saying Evrett is that) deserves freedom of speech, maybe once and then our taken-for-granted-values needs to be questioned if not else so that we remember why they are our values in the first place.

No offense meant, I just think that for the sake of a civil debate it would be more constructive to reply properly. That and "prophets" only seem to win ground by being stigmatized.

He wants a witch hunt and trial of the beta testers. What civil debate?

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[Moss]

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