Catching the Runaway AI

[Mike Hussey]

Hey guys

In my current game on Noble, I have put the strategies of axerush into place conquering a couple of neighbouring computers. The world seems to be in the palm of my hand except for one certain civ, the Persians. This civ seems to be excelling in the art of expansion and tech lead gathering steamrolling the rest of the civs (including me) at the latter in particular. I think this happened because I was too busy conquering my neighbours whilst situated in the far away lands of Persia, Darius was untouched and indeed untouchable by my axes.

So now the problem is Darius' civ has gathered momentum and I can't really reach them efficiently by land transportation to conquer them and I fear that if I continue just conquering my relatively backward neighbours that Darius will become the runaway AI and it will be a duel into the modern ages with he having a massive technological advantage. Any tips on how to tame this monster? My own research has been crippled somehow, at this stage I'm guessing by the Civ3-esque strategy of keeping conquered cities (about 50% of them), maybe this is my downfall?

Please feel free to make any other criticisms of my game.

Anywho below are the saves:

Thanks much!

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

My advice would be this: don't worry. It's so early in the game, you can easily make a come back. I'm assuming you're larger than him, and probably the largest civ out there. Futurehermit's sig contains some of the greatest advice in Civ: Land is power. Dedicate yourself to getting your economy and research on track and you'll be surprised at how quickly you'll catch up through your large empire's ability to tech and some smart trades.

I was in a very similiar situation as you awhile ago, I conqured civs but was very backwards (I didn't have philosphy until the late 1700's-early 1800's!) but my empire was large enough that once I got the economy going, I could tech at a monster rate and quickly caught up.

So for now, I'd say ignore him, focus on your empire, see if you can get enough EP to see his research and that can help you make some tech decisions for trade. You can catch up to him, easy. Just focus.

 

[Refar]

Darius can be quite a pain. However here i dont think there's i a problem. He's the sole Confucianist in a hevily hindu world, you have lots of land.

Mehemed and Sal at your religion between your two should keep you safe enought. You has lots of land, so perhaps turtle for a while and build up some economy (you cant afford much more land as it is now), while bribing your Hindu brothers to attack Darius...

 

[Daedal]

Speaking of EPs... it may be worthwhile to run an espionage economy this game. Play a cottage/hybrid economy as you've already started and devote your to . Plant spies in Darius' nearby cities and steal his tech lead. Use your remaining EPs to cause havoc when you conquer him and then either switch back to a conventional economy or play out the game and conquer the world using EPs to steal techs. Anywho, xanadux did a good tutorial on espionage economies if you're interested in finding out more.

 

[dankok8]

You don't have too much gold yet you're building so many swordsmen .. just wait till machinery is done and build macemen directly (I hope you have civil service) - you simply don't have money to upgrade all your swordsmen..

Another thing, your empire is quite large now so just build courthouses in all your cities (no need in capital) before you do any more conquering or else your economy might crash. Otherwise, I think you're in a good position to win this game!! And yea bring lots of siege to your conquests to minimize casualties.

 

[Zanttu]

You're in great place to win this game - if you play it correctly. This is my version on how I would do it:
1. Stop producing units. You're running 60% science with -50 decifit, and all of your cities are building units?
2. Build courthouse in every city, except in your capital.
3. Build Library in every city
4. All high-food cities assign scientists
5. All other cities get cottaged
6. If you have built or captured the Pyramids, switch to Representation
7. After you start getting positive cash flow at 60% science, start mass producing Macemen+Catapults and conquer another civ - Saladin or Mehmed probably
8. Cruise your way to domination victory

IMPORTANT NOTE: You really don't NEED to attack darius - you can probably win via domination easily without touching his cities.

 

[LlamaCat]

this game is so early and it looks like he only has 3 techs that you don't... this is no problem. Like has been said, you have the basic infrastructure with a lot of land, now start building cottages and get some courthouses and markets/banks built and you will overtake him easily. This game is nothing, you should try Monarch and above when they can really have a massive tech advantage, but as the human player you can buy your time and eventually catch up.

 

[Mike Hussey]

Hmm..

So you guys think that it's time to consolidate and build up economy eh? Not a bad idea, in fact, if this was C3C I would be into it already. However, with this new Civ4 I don't really know how to generate money anymore (in Civ3 it used to be Currency then marketplaces) but now I'm confused.

@Zanttu: Is the library the new marketplace? And also for courthouses, which tech do you need to build them? Do they cost upkeep? What is the minimum amount of maintence which makes building a courthouse feasible? Also by all other cities cottaged do you mean cottaging all available flat land? I would do this but I tend to farm flat non resourced land which produces less than 2 food for fear that it might affect growth. Now I realise that not all growth is good. Also how do you assign specialists? I actually physically don't know how to do this in Civ4 (sorry guys I'm still noobish) And for food rich cities do you mean cities which grow beyond say size 6 and continue to grow in say 4-5 turns or less? I still have that Wonder Addiction from Ision (who I might add has probably long retired from the Civilization series) and am always reluctant to build Global wonders unless they are hideously overpowered.

Also some general questions:
1. How would I get rid of excess swordsman who are high enough in numbers to be an upkeep problem but aren't high enough to fully conquer a neighbouring civ?

2. Also how does the Espionage slider and Espionage in general work? Does it play a big role in Civ4?

So to sum up:
At this stage just reduce military numbers to a lower level and consolidate by building infrastructure and gain commerce which eventually leads to more cities being able to be built. From there build up military and conquer globe? I dunno after playing Civ it seems that only a military victory seems to satisfy all others seem diluted and cheap, unless I play a game specifically for a certain victory. Is that just me?

Well thanks for helping guys.

 

[Err0l]

Courthouses are probably one of the most important buildings - they reduce city upkeep by 50%, which can easily save you 5 gpt per city. They are unlocked at Code of Laws, one of the most important techs imo. I'd immedatly (don't know how this is written...) switch research to this. The actual markets that increase gold output by 25% are unlocked by Currency tech. You also can assign two merchants by this yielding three gold. Libraries give +25% science per city and the ability to assign two sciencists, where the latter is more useful in this situation. Sciencists give three beakers and they accelerate the gereation of a great sciencist, who's able to construct a +50% research building, settle in a city to provide 1 hammer and six beakers or he may accelerate research of a technology.

To assign a specialist, first go into the city screen, then on the right side, you are able to see a plus sign beneath a guy with white clothings. If you see no plus, you lack the buildings for assigning the sciencist. If you click on the plus, you assign a sciencist. I hope you understand what's the minus for.

Growth has to stop at a point where all new citizens get unhappy. To check this, look at the red face in the city screen, somewhere near the city name. If the number near the red face is as big as the population size, don't let your city grow anymore. Each new citizen won't contribute anything.

And, to get rid of a unit, click the button with the skull.

 

[dankok8]

1. How would I get rid of excess swordsman who are high enough in numbers to be an upkeep problem but aren't high enough to fully conquer a neighbouring civ?

Disband a few unpromoted ones but keep the ones that are highly promoted so you can upgrade them to macemen later. And stop building any more military units - focus on courthouses followed by other infrastructure where needed (libraries for good science cities, colosseum or temple for happiness etc)

2. Also how does the Espionage slider and Espionage in general work? Does it play a big role in Civ4?

Assign espionage (on the espionage screen) towards an opponent you plan to attack so you can find his demographics (score, GNP, production, crop yield, power, culture, espionage) and possibly gain insight into what he is researching and gain city visibility. If you collect enough espionage points (EP's), you can send your spy in for an active mission in various acts of sabotage. AI performs many of these active spy missions on you.

 

[Zanttu]

Hmm..

So you guys think that it's time to consolidate and build up economy eh? Not a bad idea, in fact, if this was C3C I would be into it already. However, with this new Civ4 I don't really know how to generate money anymore (in Civ3 it used to be Currency then marketplaces) but now I'm confused.

@Zanttu: Is the library the new marketplace? And also for courthouses, which tech do you need to build them? Do they cost upkeep? What is the minimum amount of maintence which makes building a courthouse feasible? Also by all other cities cottaged do you mean cottaging all available flat land? I would do this but I tend to farm flat non resourced land which produces less than 2 food for fear that it might affect growth. Now I realise that not all growth is good. Also how do you assign specialists? I actually physically don't know how to do this in Civ4 (sorry guys I'm still noobish) And for food rich cities do you mean cities which grow beyond say size 6 and continue to grow in say 4-5 turns or less? I still have that Wonder Addiction from Ision (who I might add has probably long retired from the Civilization series) and am always reluctant to build Global wonders unless they are hideously overpowered.

Also some general questions:
1. How would I get rid of excess swordsman who are high enough in numbers to be an upkeep problem but aren't high enough to fully conquer a neighbouring civ?

2. Also how does the Espionage slider and Espionage in general work? Does it play a big role in Civ4?

So to sum up:
At this stage just reduce military numbers to a lower level and consolidate by building infrastructure and gain commerce which eventually leads to more cities being able to be built. From there build up military and conquer globe? I dunno after playing Civ it seems that only a military victory seems to satisfy all others seem diluted and cheap, unless I play a game specifically for a certain victory. Is that just me?

Well thanks for helping guys.

I haven't played previous versions of Civ, but I think I can explain how the economy works in Civ4.

All works with Commerce. Commerce is those coins what you see in the city screen. So you get Commerce by working tiles in your cities. Commerce translates to gold, science, culture and espionage. You can change the amount of commerce going for science by adjusting your science slider. Same works for espionage and culture (But to adjust culture, you must research drama first). All extra commerce, which doesn't go for science, culture or espionage, translates to gold. Got the idea? The most important one of the sliders is of course the science one. I usually play my games without touching the espionage slider at all, and the culture one I raise only if I have happiness problems. (With theatres and colosseums you get happiness bonus for every 10% culture in the slider.)

The easiest way to generate more commerce is cottages. Cottage increases the commerce yield of a tile, and as it grows bigger it gives more and more commerce.

You can multiply your science/gold/culture/espionage output via multipliers. Some buildings give bonuses, which multiply your output. Library, for example, gives +25% to your science output, market gives +25% gold etc. These buildings of course only affect one specific city, so you have to build library to every city you want to have the +25% bonus.

City mainteance and unit upkeep are eating your commerce, before it translates to anything. How big the mainteance cost is, depends on the distance of the city to your capital. NOTE: The amount of buildings inside the city doesn't affect city mainteance. Courthouses are the most important buildings for a big empire, because they cut the mainteance in half. (Courthouses become available when you research Code of Laws tech.)

There is way to generate science/gold/culture/espionage without generating any commerce. This can be done by assigning specialists. To assign a specialist, open your city screen and click one of the + buttons next to the pictures of scientist, artist, merchant, engineer, spy and priest in the right side of the screen.

In case you don't know how to control the citizens and how to use the city screen, I'll explain it now. In the city screen, you see the big picture of the city. There you see some white circles on the tiles which are currently being worked. For every population point, you have one citizen. (+ the one in the middle, working the city tile itself.) So for instance instead of working a mine with a citizen, you can assign that citizen to a specialist. In the beginning of the game, you can't assign specialists though. That's because you need to build some specific buildings or run specific civics to be able to run specialists. Library for example allows you to assign 2 scientists.

So specialists don't produce commerce. A scientist specialist for example gives you +3 beakers(=research) and a merchant gives you +3 gold. NOTE: specialists don't produce food at all, so thats why the cit has to be food-rich to be able to run specialists.

Whoops, I didn't mean to write an essay . I hope it helps though! ( if you didn't fall asleep in the middle of reading it)

 

[Mike Hussey]

Ok guys, I took all your valuable advice and put it into practice. Now the economy/commerce side of my empire is relatively strong now, but I think my peaceful infrastructure building has cost me in terms of military. The Ottomons declared on me for some reason straight after I finished off Saladin and so now I'm locked in an attritious war with him. He just keeps the horse archers and catapults coming and with me building mainly banks, courthouses, grocers and markets, I fell into the trap of building too many defensive longbowmen and just fortifying my common border with Mehmed II. Neither side seems to be able to break through and now I'm torn because on one hand I still need to finish strengthening the economy whilst still pumping out a decent force to conquer the Ottomans who seem to have a limitless supply. Should I now declare peace? If so that could be viable think about it but I would need to disband 10-15 Macemen. But then the issue would be when do I declare war again because whilst this little war with the Ottomans has gone on, Darius has lengthened his tech lead and vastly improved his civilization size. Now I'm really worried about him.

My building the economy up was definitely a success tho. Even tho my cities are still relatively small I'm now able to research at around 40-60% with a budget surplus gaining gold. Thanks guys for that. It's more difficult than Civ3 because in Civ4 markets, banks and such only give you +25% whilst in Civ3 they gave +50% and you only need to build 2 of em in each city. But anyway the courthouses helped a lot too and I now have the Forbidden Palace built.

But I'm glad as you say they've removed the city maintence for buildings, that's great.

And yes I finally know how to implement specialists now, but the thing is sometimes when I implement them, it doesn't affect food/shield production whilst increasing commerce or espionage points, and other times it does, how can you guys tell? Specialists are one way to control a city growing beyond its happiness limit right?

Espionage is just finding out what the enemies are building and demographic information? Isn't that kinda useless at lower levels, because you usually attack them regardless using brute military force? Also on the panel showing score, there is a tech showing and a number, is that related to espionage?

Some screenshots of the game at present:

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Zanttu]

Espionage is just finding out what the enemies are building and demographic information? Isn't that kinda useless at lower levels, because you usually attack them regardless using brute military force? Also on the panel showing score, there is a tech showing and a number, is that related to espionage?

When you have generated enough espionage points against an AI, you are able to see more information from their empire. You see their demographics (power rating for example), what they are researching (this is the thing showing right next to their score), their city wiew (first you see what units are there, later you will be able to see what they are building and you can open their city screen to look closer) and other that kind of things. There are other uses for espionage also: With spies you can perform espionage missions in their cities. You can for example poison their water for few turns, put a city to a revolt for 1 turn (this can be used to remove the cultural defense without siege units, since when in revolt the city doesn't have cultural defense), or steal a tech from your opponent. The espionage missions performed by spies are called active effects, and the others (seeing their research for example) are passive effects. Passive effects don't use the espionage points at all, they are just available when you have enough of them. The active effects (espionage missions) however, spend some of the espionage points when performing a mission. (If a mission fails, no espionage points are used though). You can see the costs for passive effects in the espionage screen, but to know the costs for active effects you must have a spy in enemy city.

 

[backblast]

In my own recent Monarch game, Darius just won via Cultural Victory. He definitely seems to be a powerhouse AI. He was on the other continent, and when I first made contact, he had both the tech & culture lead. His tech lead was huge, but I was able to slow him down by bribing his neighbor, Shaka, into war.

But despite Shaka's superior land mass & a vassal, Darius was holding his own. I convinced Peter and Genghis (both on my continent, sharing my religion) to join the fight. For some reason Shaka and Genghis started a war. Great, with everyone at war, I could gain the tech lead and go for spaceship! All seemed well, I used strategic tech bribes to restart the fighting. But Darius was still holding on to his key cities. Then I see the dreaded "Persepolis has achieved legendary status" near the dawn of the 20th century-- this really woke me up. This is the first BTS game I've played where an AI was making a serious run at cultural victory.

Using the victory conditions screen, I noted that the #3 culture city was coastal, and had about 30,000 pts banked. The problem was this city was on the opposite side of the continent from Shaka. I was forced to divert my own resources and build an invasion force to raze the city. At this point, the #3 city shifted to one with 10,000 pts, so I assumed I was safe. I sued for peace.

I should have been on track to win the game, but I think lost focus, as I often do during the modern age (don't play the era often enough). I secured Aluminum Inc and distributed to my cities, since I needed that resource for the space ship. I am sure expert players would point to this as a mistake, arguing aluminum is a luxury.

Then Shaka declared war and I had to fend off his invasion force of artillery and infrantry (guess I looked too weak on the power graph). I did capture the tech lead from careful research and building the Internet (probably another sign of lost focus).

But ultimately my tech wasn't up to snuff, it was ~2025 before I grabbed the last spaceship tech and started building the SS Life Support capsule. Even though the rest of my space ship was ready to go, I could not launch before Darius came out of nowhere (because I hadn't checked the victory screen) for the culture win. Somehow he managed to boost that #3 city despite near constant war and losing the tech lead.

I guess I deserve the Warren G. Harding moniker.

 

[TRJS]

Ben,

I would suggest you continue to defend against Mehmed for now. Perhaps adding a few horse to your cities as defenders that can counter attack.

Slowly build up military ensuring your tech does not get hurt too much.

Then hit him hard and grab a couple of cities.

Or you could throw pup the ball.

 

[azzaman333]

Push for a domination with with catapults.

 

[oyzar]

Why would he want to build courthouses? why is he running science? Just kill all the remaning AI's and you win..