pigswill
fly (one day)
Got to agree that Financial is the best trait, at higher levels Philosophical is very good as well but not so much at Prince because the whole bulb/beeline/backfill approach doesn't really work at lower levels.
Noob needs help: hit plateau at Prince difficulty
- Thread starter pattison1100
- Start date
Lexicus
Deity
Financial is not the best trait but it is probably the best noob trait...I almost always play Fin leaders too not because I'm a noob but because I'm lazy and enjoy passive bonuses 
Thrasybulos
Prince
- Joined
- May 4, 2023
- Messages
- 465
On the other hand, what works on Prince Level is settling a bazillion GS in your Oxford city.
pattison1100
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2024
- Messages
- 31
Thanks all for the input again.
After a busy week or so I am having some time to play.
2nd attempt at this map (ditched the first one at around 1500bc, after having only 3 cities and lagging behind around the middle of the scoreboard), somehow still not happy.
I'm reading again and again that my workers should be improving food tiles, but often times there's no more food tiles to improve.
Then I'd chop instead, but Bronze working takes ages to research. Often times I'm not telling my workers to build certain stuff because I don't know any better but because they have nothing else to do. Tbh getting to Bronze working already feels too slow. Once it's there I'm supposed to start whipping and chopping but I don't have population and often pottery.
There's a ton of fish but if I'm making fishing boats, I'm not making settlers or granaries.
I still don't get how city growth works. I'm working the food tiles manually, but there's no growth before granaries. I'm missing something.
After a busy week or so I am having some time to play.
2nd attempt at this map (ditched the first one at around 1500bc, after having only 3 cities and lagging behind around the middle of the scoreboard), somehow still not happy.
I'm reading again and again that my workers should be improving food tiles, but often times there's no more food tiles to improve.
Then I'd chop instead, but Bronze working takes ages to research. Often times I'm not telling my workers to build certain stuff because I don't know any better but because they have nothing else to do. Tbh getting to Bronze working already feels too slow. Once it's there I'm supposed to start whipping and chopping but I don't have population and often pottery.
There's a ton of fish but if I'm making fishing boats, I'm not making settlers or granaries.
I still don't get how city growth works. I'm working the food tiles manually, but there's no growth before granaries. I'm missing something.
Cities won’t grow while building workers work settlers; the food is used to produce the units. Is that what you mean when you say your cities aren’t growing?
As for idle workers, often times it’s good to go straight for bronze working, since slavery and chopping are so powerful early on. Especially true if you have a lot of forests and nowhere else for your workers to build. Of course that might mean getting your cottages up later or neglecting animal husbandry or something, but that’s a choice you’ll have to make.
That’s where the fun is in this game! Weighing your options and deciding what you think will work best in whatever situation. With time, you’ll learn for yourself — I think that’s more useful than being told what strategy to take
As for idle workers, often times it’s good to go straight for bronze working, since slavery and chopping are so powerful early on. Especially true if you have a lot of forests and nowhere else for your workers to build. Of course that might mean getting your cottages up later or neglecting animal husbandry or something, but that’s a choice you’ll have to make.
That’s where the fun is in this game! Weighing your options and deciding what you think will work best in whatever situation. With time, you’ll learn for yourself — I think that’s more useful than being told what strategy to take
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Can't open the save - have you farmed floodplains? If your workers seem to not have much to do consider the possibility that you have too many (I have no idea if that is the case). Cities working unimproved floodplains are good. Grow them.
a pen-dragon
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2024
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- 170
While producing Workers or Settlers a city does not grow, instead the surplus food is used to produce it.
In the early game, settlers and workers are what you want, but to produce them it is better to have a grown city, since that is working more tiles. Thus sometimes it is necessary to build something else, usually Warriors or Workboats. Sometimes you are building something you do not need to speed up later settlers. If someone here says to let the city grow in the context of the early game that usually means not to produce Workers/Settlers.
Overall each starting position may require a different playstile, especially starts with lots of seafood. As a rule of thumb the capital should grow until it is working all improved 5+ food+hammers tiles, and only then start building mass Settlers/Workers. Growing the city does take some resources but it is an investment, not a loss. While you will start your settlers later they will be produced faster.
In this starting position a Workboat after the initial worker would have been a better choice, allowing to let the city grow and also improving one more food resource.
Regarding Tech choices, yes, Bronze Working is relatively expensive. That is compensated by the advantages it brings, especially for production whipping and chopping are great. It also allows you to see copper and claim one early, making sure you can defend yourself. The most important part is that the increased production will speed up your growth a lot.
In the early game, settlers and workers are what you want, but to produce them it is better to have a grown city, since that is working more tiles. Thus sometimes it is necessary to build something else, usually Warriors or Workboats. Sometimes you are building something you do not need to speed up later settlers. If someone here says to let the city grow in the context of the early game that usually means not to produce Workers/Settlers.
Overall each starting position may require a different playstile, especially starts with lots of seafood. As a rule of thumb the capital should grow until it is working all improved 5+ food+hammers tiles, and only then start building mass Settlers/Workers. Growing the city does take some resources but it is an investment, not a loss. While you will start your settlers later they will be produced faster.
In this starting position a Workboat after the initial worker would have been a better choice, allowing to let the city grow and also improving one more food resource.
Regarding Tech choices, yes, Bronze Working is relatively expensive. That is compensated by the advantages it brings, especially for production whipping and chopping are great. It also allows you to see copper and claim one early, making sure you can defend yourself. The most important part is that the increased production will speed up your growth a lot.
The game has trouble loading the save with special characters in the file name. Just rename the file.
@sampsa - You need to edit the save title as it has a special character in it.
From what I can see..
Techs were AH/TW/Mining. I suspect AH was got from a hut.
Went double worker and then settler.
With so much food it's almost worth growing to size 4 or 6 and whipping settlers.
I would of skipped the wheel. So worker first. Beelining BW may have been good as you had the wet rice and could of chopped workboats. 1 worker was fine here.
I would not be building a settler that takes over 11-12 turns. Grow the city and chop out workboats. Then chop into settlers. At size 4 with all food resources worked the settler is 7 turns. Compared to 17 turns at size 1.
From what I can see..
Techs were AH/TW/Mining. I suspect AH was got from a hut.
Went double worker and then settler.
With so much food it's almost worth growing to size 4 or 6 and whipping settlers.
I would of skipped the wheel. So worker first. Beelining BW may have been good as you had the wet rice and could of chopped workboats. 1 worker was fine here.
I would not be building a settler that takes over 11-12 turns. Grow the city and chop out workboats. Then chop into settlers. At size 4 with all food resources worked the settler is 7 turns. Compared to 17 turns at size 1.
Opened the save. Pattison, I'm not sure if you understand how the game works. It makes no sense to have two improved tiles and have the city at size 1. Also those workers have nothing useful to do.
So after you've built a a worker, you should identify how many premium tiles you have. Then grow to that size building warrior(s) and immediately switch to settler upon reaching the desired size. Worker improves the tiles starting from the best one. You want more workers immediately when you hit BW so you can start chopping.
So after you've built a a worker, you should identify how many premium tiles you have. Then grow to that size building warrior(s) and immediately switch to settler upon reaching the desired size. Worker improves the tiles starting from the best one. You want more workers immediately when you hit BW so you can start chopping.
pattison1100
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2024
- Messages
- 31
Well, as I said I wasn't getting how city growth is working.
I literally got to know from Utamaro's comment on Tuesday about the issue you're mentioning - the one that you liked.
So yeah, it made no sense but somehow this basic information didn't get to me before. I was just waiting for the cities to start growing, regardless of what I'm producing. Now I get it!
Since then, I've had my first success, I'd say, on Prince level.
I researched BW early and went for an early conquest with Axemen joined by Immortals (as I researched HBR) mainly against warriors - the Dutch (who were at the top of the scoreboard at that time) vanished quickly.
This put me in an advantageous position, and at AD100 I'm still leading. Yay! I also somehow managed that China and Japan declared war agains my Sumerian neighbours, although I'm quite sure they were plotting against me.
Now I joined them to get my chunk from the Sumerian land. I even converted to the religion of the aggressors, which I wasn't planning to do, but now we're going in the same direction I guess.
I'm very sure that I'm still mismanaging many things but this success is like a breath of fresh air!
Now my issues are the following, at least the ones I know of:
- Low funds. Slow research, as a result.
- I'm really focusing on working my cottages manually to grow them and get more money, and they seem to be developing, although probably not as much as it'd be necessary. Sometimes I simply need to switch to a farm or other tile for more food so that the city can grow.
- I regularly hit the ceiling with my cities (some of which have low population because I kept whipping offensive units), and regardless of how I try to assign worked tiles, even re-distributing tiles in overlap between them better, the best I can get is still Stagnant.
What can be done about this? It seems that one good food source per city is simply not enough, and regular farms don't provide more food than a well placed developing cottage.
EDIT: In the meantime I figured out how to play with the worked tiles in order to have more funds / growth. I found that in this game a management of what exactly happens in which city regarding the tiles is essential. I did not think that it matters this much - I knew we liked tiles with many of whatever they give but now I see there's a delicate balance. Very often I need to wait say 2-3 turns for the city to grow and then go back to adjust the worked tiles, and maybe hand over some to the neighbouring burg as well.
Right now I'm at AD780 and still leading. I know the native americans want to attack me but I keep pumping units to their border. I started the colonisation of a biggish jungle island to the west with a ton of ivory. I'm still very uncultured, just started building my first monasteries and temples.
I've also noticed some more flaws since the AD100 save, my Dutch cities were not connected to the capital for example. Did not cause an issue so far at least.
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Wow, there is a lot to unpack.
1. Don't farm brown tiles. Unless you need them for irrigation chains, but that option only opens at Civil Service.
2. Many of your cities are over their happy cap. It's not even from heavy whipping, you have simply let them grow too big. Get more happy resources a.s.a.p. and / or whip those extra populations away for something you need (see next point).
3. You have huge empire with lots of undeveloped cities, you need more workers to get your fief in shape. In your overpopulated cities, switch to building workers for one turn and them immediately whip them. After you have done that, manage city screen of those cities and allocate workers from farms to cottages and mines until you are no longer providing food surplus. e.g. Amsterdam is two population over happy cap and is building aqueduct (why are you building that, you have more than enough health). Switch over to a worker and then an another worker (whip that one to get rid of unhappy). After that build units or research.
4. Your economy is in bad shape. Far too many cities that are not providing enough commerce.
Your empire's North and South parts are also disconnected, you need a road there.
Open borders with Togu, those 1C trade routes in your cities will turn to 2C routes (or even better if he has big citi9es).
5. Why are you building settler in Tarsus? You already have too many cities and I don't see any obvious spots I would like to settle at this point.
6. Trade techs, you'll want iron working. Don't be afraid to give generous trade to your allies, you get diplomacy bonus for doing that and probably open more trades afterwards. It's usually bad thing to trade for cheap early techs like mysticism, but in this case I would trade math and horseback to Mao for mysticism and iron working.
Finally try to wrap up your war with Sumeria and concentrate to bringing your already big empire online economically for next score of turns. After you have currency you can look to expand further.
1. Don't farm brown tiles. Unless you need them for irrigation chains, but that option only opens at Civil Service.
2. Many of your cities are over their happy cap. It's not even from heavy whipping, you have simply let them grow too big. Get more happy resources a.s.a.p. and / or whip those extra populations away for something you need (see next point).
3. You have huge empire with lots of undeveloped cities, you need more workers to get your fief in shape. In your overpopulated cities, switch to building workers for one turn and them immediately whip them. After you have done that, manage city screen of those cities and allocate workers from farms to cottages and mines until you are no longer providing food surplus. e.g. Amsterdam is two population over happy cap and is building aqueduct (why are you building that, you have more than enough health). Switch over to a worker and then an another worker (whip that one to get rid of unhappy). After that build units or research.
4. Your economy is in bad shape. Far too many cities that are not providing enough commerce.
Your empire's North and South parts are also disconnected, you need a road there.
Open borders with Togu, those 1C trade routes in your cities will turn to 2C routes (or even better if he has big citi9es).
5. Why are you building settler in Tarsus? You already have too many cities and I don't see any obvious spots I would like to settle at this point.
6. Trade techs, you'll want iron working. Don't be afraid to give generous trade to your allies, you get diplomacy bonus for doing that and probably open more trades afterwards. It's usually bad thing to trade for cheap early techs like mysticism, but in this case I would trade math and horseback to Mao for mysticism and iron working.
Finally try to wrap up your war with Sumeria and concentrate to bringing your already big empire online economically for next score of turns. After you have currency you can look to expand further.
Lexicus
Deity
You need to understand the basics of how food and growth works.
One good food source per city is generally not enough, though it does depend on what you want to do with a city.
Start by reading this.
Getting the Most From Your Cities: A guide to Industry and Economy - CivFanatics
I'm posting this because it doesn't seem to be redundant with Stuporstar’s city placement article. Read his article first if you’re confused about the numerical values of the various terrains and improvements. Also, this article was written based on version 1.09. I won’t experience 1.52 until I...
www.civfanatics.com
pigswill
fly (one day)
You can't afford further expansion so peace with Gilgamesh. Calendar resources will solve your happiness problems. After calendar you probably need currency to grow your economy. Build research instead of walls, aqueduct, settlers, units. Connect cities.
Ecbactna should be using the gold tile.
I probably would of built a galley and just settled on the ivory on that island. It will give most of your cities a 2 commerce trade route. Plus 1 happiness from the ivory.
You need a road to connect your 2 empires (3N of Amsterdam or somewhere where there is no fog.). Then all cities would have +1 happiness and +4 health if they have a granary. This wipes out the -4 health in your capital. One road giving the power of 3 resources is a simple win.
Lean to use research in your cities. You don't need city walls and aqueducts everywhere. Research turns your hammers into science.
One of your cities was not working a fully fledged cottage. You can whip or chop settlers. Slow building is bad.
I would probably take peace here. Maybe you could suicide stack into Sumerian city after Japan attack? Not sure. Catapults might of been better.
Calendar is needed asap here and workers need to be near these resources once you get it. So you really want a worker near your capital too.
Great to see that you took down an AI here.
I probably would of built a galley and just settled on the ivory on that island. It will give most of your cities a 2 commerce trade route. Plus 1 happiness from the ivory.
You need a road to connect your 2 empires (3N of Amsterdam or somewhere where there is no fog.). Then all cities would have +1 happiness and +4 health if they have a granary. This wipes out the -4 health in your capital. One road giving the power of 3 resources is a simple win.
Lean to use research in your cities. You don't need city walls and aqueducts everywhere. Research turns your hammers into science.
One of your cities was not working a fully fledged cottage. You can whip or chop settlers. Slow building is bad.
I would probably take peace here. Maybe you could suicide stack into Sumerian city after Japan attack? Not sure. Catapults might of been better.
Calendar is needed asap here and workers need to be near these resources once you get it. So you really want a worker near your capital too.
Great to see that you took down an AI here.
pattison1100
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2024
- Messages
- 31
So, that's exactly what I've been doing after posting my save. And I'd say I managed to get my economy in shape.
Then, while still leading, I got into a big mixup in diplomacy...
I'd say that I'm being fooled by the AIs as it seems they are ALL plotting against the human player and there's no one that can be trusted.
Honestly I never had a game where I had an "ally" and it did not backstab me eventually. Never.
First of all, I was at Friendly with Mao and I wanted to keep this up. He was having Islam, and for me I converted to Christianity in 940, but this did not seem to cause a huge issue.
I ended the war agaist the Sumerians and by finally wiping them (1190 AD).
I was kind of cautious with Ragnar, did not want to anger him for sure and I knew that fighting Sitting Bull will eventually be unavoidable.
So when Ragnar came to me and asked me to fight Sitting Bull together, I thought: okay, this is a bit early but let me please him (1280 AD).
In 1330 Mao also joined the war on my side, but then already in 1350 Ragnar made peace with Sitting Bull which was smelling like a set-up. I tried to make peace with SB but he refused.
In 1400 out of the blue, Tokugawa (that's been a turncoat throughout) became a Vassal to Ragnar.
Mao was doing better in the Sitting Bull war than I could (had to move my entire army from the south) and forced them to capitulate in 1515. Only 5 years later Ragnar (and his henchman Toku) declared on me out of Pleased. Awesome.
He practically lured me to fight SB "together" in the north and then he attacked me from the south.
I saw that I was in trouble so I paid a big sum and Gunpowder to Mao (and SB) to attack Ragnar (and Toku) in 1530.
I thought: let me allow Mao & SB to fight Ragnar in the north-east, while I stay defensive against Ragnar and finally take care of Toku in the south. He also seemed more like a soft target.
Toku, seeing that he was no longer of use, renounced his vassalage to Ragnar in 1555.
But, after capturing 2 cities, Mao & SB made peace with Ragnar in 1620. And somehow they immediately went to Friendly and Open Borders too... This was not a good sign at all.
Mao moved his armies through Ragnar's lands (!) to take the Japanese capital that I've been softening for a long time at that point. I saw him coming with a big army and tried to ask him to make peace with Toku before he reached but he refused.
Alas, after taking Toku's capital, he also swore allegiance to him, now having two vassals... I was scared, as SB has been arming himself heavily since 1515 but I tried to keep the good relationship with Mao - alternating between Friendly and Pleased.
I thought okay, let me take one or two towns from Ragnar and then end that war. In the meantime I was sending missionaries to China, and gifting them to Mao (I wasn't able to spread myself due to his civic) in hopes of becoming brothers in faith.
The war against Ragnar seemed to have good chances, and I was still pissed about the set-up and his sneak attack, so I wanted to end this conflict in a plus. I captured Birka, but before continuing to the next city, he became a vassal of Mao, and with that momentum ALL civs declared war on me.
Mao out of Pleased, where he just went down by himself from Friendly.
Seeing the stacks that Mao was amassing in Tokugawa's territories in the south, I think this was unavoidable and has been in the pipeline since 1515.
Was this all happening because I had a different religion? In case of Tokugawa and SB being on Taoism didn't seem to be an obstacle...
It seems to me that you can literally never trust any AI in this game. I'm regularly being attacked by old war buddies & trade partners out of Pleased or Friendly. A telltale sign is that despite the good relationship all their trade options become red.
It seems that you have to prepare for war with literally everyone, except the one you're already at war with...
I understand that this was Mao's best option to become #1 but I also see a tendency that the AI civs tend to become vassals of other AI civs very easily whereas for me I literally have to ask them before wiping them to succeed.
At this point I've practically lost, as I don't have a decent defensive force, especially towards the south, and I'm being attacked from all sides.
Sad end to a good game, but it seemed that I've been tricked.
Also, my empire is very uncultured, due to the fact that I was pushing for military competitiveness, but even that wasn't enough, and somehow Mao ended up having a more agile army that could somehow appear everywhere and eventually became a stack of death in the south.
If I could have win any of the other wars besides the Dutch and the Sumerian one, then maybe I could have avoided everyone teaming up against me. But Mao always arrived at the right time. Of course it made it easier that he could make peace with Ragnar with ease, while for me once I'm at war with someone, I can be glad if they are willing to talk.
Thoughts?
I really love playing Darius btw.
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pattison1100
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2024
- Messages
- 31
Thanks for the tips!
Actually I've done many of these things by myself since posting the save which is a good sign, that I was thinking in a similar direction like a more experienced player.
The research option I've done a few times but honestly I've forgotten about it lately. Thanks for the reminder, that's an important one.
Why have you not got rifles or infantry by now? You had such a great empire. Your game play still needs work here as the basics are failing you.. This is winnable but how you got here is not good.
Those island cities are suffering colonial costs. One of them has upkeep of 36 gold a turn. Another 32 gold. You can whip courthouses.
You probably should be whipping grenadiers everywhere and heading for cannons. Till you have a stack that can beat Mao's stack. In 4-5 turns you could have 30+ grenadiers. Then 10-15 cannons could follow. He only has one stack which will beat you hands down but it can only move 1 tile a turn. Your current army is not going to take any cities here. Might as well send it home.
If you are at war pretty much every city should be whipping/producing units here. Longbow will not help you here. You are missing quite a few techs too. No literature for Heroic Epic either.
At present if he offers peace I would take it till you actually have an army that can take cities. You have over 40% of land.Just no army. You can ignore the other Ai stack as 2-3 units will not take down grenadier defences.
Religion/ diplomacy is something to work on but too late here.
Those island cities are suffering colonial costs. One of them has upkeep of 36 gold a turn. Another 32 gold. You can whip courthouses.
You probably should be whipping grenadiers everywhere and heading for cannons. Till you have a stack that can beat Mao's stack. In 4-5 turns you could have 30+ grenadiers. Then 10-15 cannons could follow. He only has one stack which will beat you hands down but it can only move 1 tile a turn. Your current army is not going to take any cities here. Might as well send it home.
If you are at war pretty much every city should be whipping/producing units here. Longbow will not help you here. You are missing quite a few techs too. No literature for Heroic Epic either.
At present if he offers peace I would take it till you actually have an army that can take cities. You have over 40% of land.Just no army. You can ignore the other Ai stack as 2-3 units will not take down grenadier defences.
Religion/ diplomacy is something to work on but too late here.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Do you have any saves betwen 100ad and 1760ad? That's a big gap. Seems like things went pear-shaped around 1200ad.
You have organised trait here so whipping court houses is great. Essentially a 60H build. If a cities cost is 8 or higher a turn it's probably worth the whip. Usually i got 9 or higher if not organised. Many would say that is a waste.
Your big issue here is lack of direction and ambition. Your army sizes need to be bigger. 5-6 trebs is not going to reduce castle defences in 4-5 turns. You need at least double that and before the Ai gets muskets.
In terms of Sumerian on your 1ad save you had enough units for his capital. However ideally that late you want catapults too. 5-6 catapults and 6-7 melee units captures his well defended city.
Then a case of momentum. A stack of 8-10 catapults. 6-7 elephants and a few axes will be enough to start your next war. Japan only had 4-5 cities. SB maybe 5-6. I don't think the other Ai were that bigger and you had a big tech advantage.
Play to win!
Your big issue here is lack of direction and ambition. Your army sizes need to be bigger. 5-6 trebs is not going to reduce castle defences in 4-5 turns. You need at least double that and before the Ai gets muskets.
In terms of Sumerian on your 1ad save you had enough units for his capital. However ideally that late you want catapults too. 5-6 catapults and 6-7 melee units captures his well defended city.
Then a case of momentum. A stack of 8-10 catapults. 6-7 elephants and a few axes will be enough to start your next war. Japan only had 4-5 cities. SB maybe 5-6. I don't think the other Ai were that bigger and you had a big tech advantage.
Play to win!
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