Cavarly overpowered?

[Skallagrimson]

Actually it is fairly realistic. The German's learned just how realistic in WW2 when they attacked Russia.

Russia wasn't extremely tech backward when overpowering the Wehrmacht. In Civ terms they were sending cossacks (powerful cavalry or weak tanks, take your pick), draftee CI infantry, and cannons against CRII infantry, artillery, and tanks. And the German tanks and infantry were beaten to near-death after the first two city raids, and Leader Hitler (opportunistic, stupid) decided they didn't need any healing time before marching towards Stalingrad.

When the units are in those conditions, the numbers needed to overwhelm are not extreme, and with some less drunk and stupid generals (or a less psychopathic Stalin) Russia could have retaken most of the land they'd given up, with far fewer losses. But part of Russia's strategy was to use war losses as a way of eliminating dissidents, by way of "punitive battalions" to deliberately get killed off, and call them war losses rather than internal oppression.

 

[mirthadir]

Cavalry always strike me as underpowered actually. Their counter comes on the same tech (but without the pre-reqs) and they require a resource. I've always found curis/cannons to both be better beelines.

Frankly I still have to go with phants to be the most overpowered unit out there. They can beat prats, triple promos out the gate is easy, and the only real counter is siege.

 

[CivCorpse]

Cavalry always strike me as underpowered actually. Their counter comes on the same tech (but without the pre-reqs) and they require a resource. I've always found curis/cannons to both be better beelines.

Frankly I still have to go with phants to be the most overpowered unit out there. They can beat prats, triple promos out the gate is easy, and the only real counter is siege.

I definately agree with you on Jumbos being the most overpowered unit for it's time. The only balancing factor (and it is a small one) is the hammer cost for a jumbo.
Ranked second is MG's. They have no counter, are immune to collateral and can get defensive bonuses. Killing CG MG's is an absolute pain in the butt without air units or arty.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Wasn't there a version (maybe Warlords?) where Marines used to get a bonus versus MGs?

 

[CivCorpse]

Wasn't there a version (maybe Warlords?) where Marines used to get a bonus versus MGs?

They get +50% vs MG's in BtS as well as +50% vs arty. But they become available with Industrialism which means you get tanks as well. The problem with Marines is that other units can not be promoted to marines. The +50% merely cancels out the +50% bonus vs gunpowder units that MG's get. Since Marines cannot get CR promotions that leaves the MG's CG promos uncountered.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Since Marines cannot get CR promotions that leaves the MG's CG promos uncountered.

When upgraded from CG crossbows or grens, yes. Out of the box all they get is the drill line, or, absurdly enough, Shock.

Sometimes I'll reserve a Guerilla II gren and a Woodsman II gren for MG upgrades as well, for beefy stack D. Takes a lot of cavs to wear those puppies down, on terrain.

 

[mirthadir]

They get +50% vs MG's in BtS as well as +50% vs arty. But they become available with Industrialism which means you get tanks as well. The problem with Marines is that other units can not be promoted to marines. The +50% merely cancels out the +50% bonus vs gunpowder units that MG's get. Since Marines cannot get CR promotions that leaves the MG's CG promos uncountered.

If they are CG III MGs yes that's a problem. However Marines can go combat line with charge or whatever to win. The real problem is that by the time you can get Marines, you will almost certainly face infantry (which counter marines exceedingly well) and MGs (which counter everything else except tanks) marines and zepps kindof work, but frankly tanks are just head and shoulders above marines except for amphib work.

 

[Skallagrimson]

In my modern stacks, Marines are welcome until mobile artillery and gunships, then they go off into "city defense via counterattack across rivers" duty.

 

[mirthadir]

In my modern stacks, Marines are welcome until mobile artillery and gunships, then they go off into "city defense via counterattack across rivers" duty.

If I have viable airpower, good espionage, naval bombardment oppurtunity, or the ability to nuke then my modern stacks consist of armor, paratroopers, and eventually gunships. One move units slow me down too much to be all that useful; by the time my marines would normally actually have attacked a few MG, I'd have gotten far more bang for my buck with tanks. The marine is a bastard little unit that serves a niche function and nothing much else.

Seriously marines losing to army infantry, don't make me laugh.

 

[Tacgnol]

Marines are not a great grunt unit, they are not meant as a grunt unit. If you use them the way they are meant, as a naval invasion force, they are extremely strong. Against a weaker opponent, you can just send in an overwhelming force and cap cities one after another, in one game I played I captured 7 cities in 2 turns using a fleet of 4 or 5 transports, naval bombardment and carriers. Typically what I do is have one city spamming marines, hopefully one every 2-3 turns, and have 2 or 3 transports full of marines moving along an enemy coast along with 2 loaded carriers and 4 battleships or 6 destroyers, medic on one of the ships and C1/pinch on marines, it takes 1 turn to cap a lightly-defended city (2-3 inf and a couple MGs), and I can airlift in a defender and a marine to replace any losses and have the fleet sailing again in 2 turns, usually reaching and capping the next city the turn it leaves or 1 later. Of course, this requires quite a bit of preparation, the right situation, another front to occupy enemy air power and reinforcements, and a strong production base to maintain, but given those it is extremely powerful and can effectively double your speed of advance by grabbing the entire coast without having to march tanks or troops along.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Marines are very good for fast, effortless capitulations via naval assault.

VS tougher opponents you can even apply a heaping dose of cheese: Take at least 2 cities ASAP, then constantly liberate to a colony. Just keep doing this and moving on while the AI falls all over itself trying to take cities back from your colony (which magically generates 2 defenders/city liberated, usually infantry). Unless the AI itself has a strong industrialism stack, it will incur losses to this tactic, both in taking the city back AND leaving garrison troops behind, and its SoD will chase your navy hopelessly in circles.

It doesn't usually last long though. Eventually the AI runs out of units, lacks the ability to counter attack, and starts being unable to take cities back. That's when you take capitulation, leave that sloppy continent with culture pressured crap cities to be fought between your vassals, and win using the UN .

 

[Skallagrimson]

Seriously marines losing to army infantry, don't make me laugh.

Marines with CII + Formation owning floods of cavalry thrown at me by Monty, especially on terrain, do make ME laugh!

 

[Archbob]

Pikes fare pretty good against Cavs actually.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Pikes fare pretty good against Cavs actually.

Everyone knows a pike has a longer range than a .30 calibre Winchester!

 

[mirthadir]

Marines are not a great grunt unit, they are not meant as a grunt unit. If you use them the way they are meant, as a naval invasion force, they are extremely strong. Against a weaker opponent, you can just send in an overwhelming force and cap cities one after another, in one game I played I captured 7 cities in 2 turns using a fleet of 4 or 5 transports, naval bombardment and carriers. Typically what I do is have one city spamming marines, hopefully one every 2-3 turns, and have 2 or 3 transports full of marines moving along an enemy coast along with 2 loaded carriers and 4 battleships or 6 destroyers, medic on one of the ships and C1/pinch on marines, it takes 1 turn to cap a lightly-defended city (2-3 inf and a couple MGs), and I can airlift in a defender and a marine to replace any losses and have the fleet sailing again in 2 turns, usually reaching and capping the next city the turn it leaves or 1 later. Of course, this requires quite a bit of preparation, the right situation, another front to occupy enemy air power and reinforcements, and a strong production base to maintain, but given those it is extremely powerful and can effectively double your speed of advance by grabbing the entire coast without having to march tanks or troops along.

The problem I have with marines is that the are only really useful if you have a rather strong tech lead (I play on normal speed mostly) if the enemy has two promo infantry rolling down the coast it is exceedingly difficult and you can't make CRIII marines. Tanks are simply much more reliable, their counter unit sucks and tends not be mass upgraded. If the enemy has tanks, you are essentially screwed (whereas a tank assault can make a few ambush tanks that own the AI).

I grant marines are the fastest way to beat up the backwards coastal civs, but speaking from a highly biased position there is no way in hell infantry should own marines.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Beat up the Infantry with fighters first! My favorite use of Marines is really being able to establish a good beachhead on another landmass. Then you can start bringing in the tanks via airdrop and whatnot. Continue assaulting coastal cities with marines/battleships/fighters, and let the tanks just roll through the non-coastal cities. The AI doesn't know what to do! They'll just keep shuffling around units. And what's even better is, they won't really be building counter units like more infantry...instead they'll start building even more friggin' ships!

I've only recently started really waging modern wars (thanks to a move up from Prince), so maybe I've gotten lucky a couple of times. Also, I think I did this with America, so the first strikes the SEALS get might make them significantly better at this that regular Marines.

Still though, you're original point that tanks own is certainly true!

 

[mirthadir]

If I'm going to mass fighters and carriers, I'm just going to take the place with mass drafted infantry and/or paratroopers. With enough air power lead you get to the penultimate fastest conquest in the game - the vertical envelopment with air power assist. No need for a navy, just get open borders with a neighbor and roll. And if you want to go really quick, then go the best commandos/paratroops and nukes.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I did one modern war once, just to test it, using only air power and paratroopers. It was hella fast: Paras defend against the AI's attempts to retake the city you just took, while the air units wear down defenses in the next city. When the air units can do no more damage at all, para drop onto the most defensible terrain on the same side of a river with the city. Even on flat land this is usually not too dangerous as the AI's units have been severely weakened anyway. Next turn, keep the air unit pounding and then finish the garrison off with the paras. That turn you paradrop in your own CG paras so the AI's retake attempts meet a lead wall. Wash-rinse-repeat, watch the slider drop like a rock and powergraph go the other way.

I precede that with a pretty extensive beach head campaign with marines though, because I suppose I didn't know you could paradrop from an AI's open borders city. I knew you could station air units there though.

 

[futurehermit]

I wrote a thread on Cav still being overpowered when BTS first came out. The key is to hit them before the AI (at least the AI you are invading) hits rifling. The AI doesn't spam enough pikes so you really roll the AI with Cav. For more effective steamrolling add espionage and spies to bring down city defenses.

 

[Loki Strikes]

Essentially a tech lead is overpowered