Cavarly overpowered?

[UWHabs]

Yeah, Cavs can take out muskets in cities with less than about 50% cultural defenses.

On the same token, infantry are overpowered since they can take out everything you get before it, except machine guns. I'd probably say that Muskets are under-powered. If you upped muskets to 10 strength, that'd make cavalry assaults much tougher to accomplish.

But even with cavalry, a C2 cuirassier is no easy pickings, and a C2/formation one is no walk in the park.

 

[futurehermit]

True, cuirs are decent at standing up to cav, but they don't get city defenses and the AI doesn't tend to beeline them or use them in sufficient numbers.

 

[Bleys]

Essentially a tech lead is overpowered

Not always. I have been the first to Rifling many times and not even been close to the tech-leader at the time. The AIs do not make RP and Rifling much of a priority at all. You may be beat to the free GP at Econ, Physics, and Communism by doing so, but its not hard to be the first to Rifling, even at Emperor.

 

[mirthadir]

Essentially a tech lead is overpowered

Ain't that the truth. I reserve the term "overpowered" for units where you can leverage the unit to an easy win even if the AI (or other human) has a significant lead on you.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Not always. I have been the first to Rifling many times and not even been close to the tech-leader at the time. The AIs do not make RP and Rifling much of a priority at all. You may be beat to the free GP at Econ, Physics, and Communism by doing so, but its not hard to be the first to Rifling, even at Emperor.

They tend to beeline Democracy and instantly flip to it in a pathetic attempt to try to lower your happy cap. Meanwhile I'm getting Steel, Rifling, Assembly Line, and then ...ownage.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Ain't that the truth. I reserve the term "overpowered" for units where you can leverage the unit to an easy win even if the AI (or other human) has a significant lead on you.

Numbers trump tech every time though. Even if they have higher-tech units, just bring more and you have at least a *chance*.

 

[mirthadir]

Numbers trump tech every time though. Even if they have higher-tech units, just bring more and you have at least a *chance*.

Not always. Firstly, on higher levels the AI bonuses to unit construction can dwarf any short term effect you want to exploit. Even an AI like Ghandi can quickly ramp up an army (normal speed) while you are still taking the border cities. Secondly, there are some tech jumps that just too high to make. I.e. maces are so viciously good that you are stuck with pults and HA; a decidedly weak option (this is assuming you both have xbows and lbs as well), running around with a stack swords vs shock maces is not going to happen. Lastly infantry and MGs vs rifles and MGs is just no contest, unless you are running redcoats, you can through rifles away by the dozen and still not make a dent. On the naval side, destroyers can eat frigates for lunch all day. The numeric advantage you need is so steep you may as well forget about that special quality that comes with quantity.

 

[Bleys]

I am with Mith here. I have tried to put Cav and Rifles up against Infantry, and had good numbers to do it, and its like running into a wall. Likewise when your trying to run Cats and Swords up against Wall/Castled LBs. You better bring a LOT of extra units.

 

[Skallagrimson]

If you have cav and rifles you should also have airships. It's also a good chance he doesn't have SAMs yet. Even though the bombardment is very weaksauce compared to bombers, you can get infantries to within range of cannons and upgraded CRIII rifles, no problem. Plus you siege or spy away the city defenses obviously. 3:1 numerical odds is almost overkill. Continue the march until they give up assembly line for peace.

 

[mirthadir]

If you have cav and rifles you should also have airships. It's also a good chance he doesn't have SAMs yet. Even though the bombardment is very weaksauce compared to bombers, you can get infantries to within range of cannons and upgraded CRIII rifles, no problem. Plus you siege or spy away the city defenses obviously. 3:1 numerical odds is almost overkill. Continue the march until they give up assembly line for peace.

Why?

Physics is on a completely different tech line.

Just to be clear, let's say I ran out to democracy to build the SoL and run US/Eman; I nabbed communism for the Kremlin. Then I tech out to combustion for destroyers and cre con. My AI target has railroad and assembly line. I could actually be "ahead" in overall tech here but lack infantry and airships. Even if I did have airships, what dictates that I have an airbase in range to attack?

3:1 is not good enough vs machine guns/infantry. They will be drilled and they take no collateral. My CRIII rifle will be utterly hosed by even a CG II infantry; and let's be honest here hordes of CRIII rifles aren't exactly cheap and the benefit is not that large given the expected burn rate against even completely toasted infantry/machine guns.

 

[Skallagrimson]

let's say I ran out to democracy to build the SoL and run US/Eman; I nabbed communism for the Kremlin. Then I tech out to combustion for destroyers and cre con. My AI target has railroad and assembly line. I could actually be "ahead" in overall tech here but lack infantry and airships. Even if I did have airships, what dictates that I have an airbase in range to attack?

Nothing dicates anything, although I rarely spend beakers on democracy nor hammers on SoL. What I'm gunning for wonder-wise are Cristo for a free Spiritual trait and Internet for free techs. Everything else is gravy, "nice" to have. AIs will trade out democracy eventually, before the Emancipation nuke becomes too damaging and combustion and physics ARE along the way to radio and computers. And along that way I pick up assembly line and industrialism, so, "oh by the way Mr. AI, I now have tanks. HA!" With radio, one of my backfill trade priorities becomes flight (often an aggressive AI will have it) and the non-aggs are just about giving democracy away by then.

In fact scientific method you can usually trade for a bargain--one of the few techs you can have at a trade advantage. I think this is because the AIs want to nuke your monasteries. Fine, nuke 'em, gimme almost free tech plz, kthxbye.

3:1 is not good enough vs machine guns/infantry. They will be drilled and they take no collateral. My CRIII rifle will be utterly hosed by even a CG II infantry; and let's be honest here hordes of CRIII rifles aren't exactly cheap and the benefit is not that large given the expected burn rate against even completely toasted infantry/machine guns.

Drilled take "less" collateral, not "no" collateral. And we're talking the AI here not a smart human player who knows how to defend. Agg AIs will go the full CG line and the full C line, and Protectives are the only big worry here, but they usually only keep DI and follow CG up to III. After my airships can't do anymore damage, then it's safe to where I won't lose more than 1 or 2 cannons. And after that bombardment round is done, it's safe for just about anything reasonably strong to attack. I've even had cuirassiers own infs at this point.

And thanks to the AI propensity to pack in cities at the minimum 3 tiles away from each other, a wide-front modern war gives me plenty of airbases even if I can't pick forts to launch from, or friendly AI cities. If they have me at a chokepoint the war tends to be more... costly.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Machine guns are immune to collateral because they are classed as seige.

 

[Bleys]

I still think the plan is to get a military tech lead at some point in the game, and leveraging that into taking the land you need in the "Second REX Phase". While doable, most of the time trying to battle superior forces is costly and unfun, and there is very little upside. You dont get nearly the cities grinding as you do with getting a tech lead, or at least full parity, and using as many as you can to sweep through quickly, especially SoZ opponents.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Machine guns are immune to collateral because they are classed as seige.

Okay, I thought the claim was due to "drill". Misunderstood.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I still think the plan is to get a military tech lead at some point in the game, and leveraging that into taking the land you need in the "Second REX Phase". While doable, most of the time trying to battle superior forces is costly and unfun, and there is very little upside. You dont get nearly the cities grinding as you do with getting a tech lead, or at least full parity, and using as many as you can to sweep through quickly, especially SoZ opponents.

While that's generally true, sometimes the game gives you no other choice. You have an AI techer who'll beat you to space if you just live and let live, and you can't bribe any AIs to take him down.

 

[mirthadir]

While that's generally true, sometimes the game gives you no other choice. You have an AI techer who'll beat you to space if you just live and let live, and you can't bribe any AIs to take him down.

This is also true, however there are some points in the tech tree where you simply cannot overpower with large numbers of units. Infantry/MG Maces/Xbows (excluding phants), destroyers, and nukes all spring to mind as places where the exchange rate for fighting down a tech handily exceeds 3:1.

 

[ppciv4]

hey, spy is the most overpowered one. it makes a whole city's defence force into . .. .. .. ..

 

[Skallagrimson]

This is also true, however there are some points in the tech tree where you simply cannot overpower with large numbers of units. Infantry/MG Maces/Xbows (excluding phants), destroyers, and nukes all spring to mind as places where the exchange rate for fighting down a tech handily exceeds 3:1.

Speaking of destroyers, I had "oil and coal issues" in one game but my HE/WP city was on a high-production coast like I normally do, so it was blasting out Frigates 1/turn. I was stacking 6+ frigates onto each seafood and "hoping for the best" when an oiled-up AI DoWed on me. As typically happens the AI would send the destroyers in pairs, so it would go 2:6 with each of my 6 getting the slight sea bonus for defending. They each would obviously kill 1 Frigate in the first turn of the attack, leaving 4 to Hail Mary and try to hold onto the seafood. 2nd turn usually one of the AI destroyers kills again, and the other one had gotten damaged enough the first time around that it fails. 3rd turn the 1 remaining destroyer is badly damaged but it just sees wood ships so it goes for it anyway. Bam, kills one more so I'm down to 2. 4th turn it tries yet again and NOPE, deeeenied, the AI destroyer is sunk. Meanwhile my high-prod unit pump just threw out 4 new replacement Frigates to re-defend the seafood. And all the WW was going to the AI each time...

 

[pi-r8]

So, has anyone mentioned yet that you can actually beat cavalry by churning out large amounts of pikemen? catapults/cannons also help, of course.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't like cannon when the AI has cuirassers or cavalry and I don't have rifles. It's a recipe for disaster. You get hit by those massed combat II cuirassers in the field and...unless you have formation pikes (aggressive mostly) you're toast. Even if you do, the damage/killed siege is substantial for its cost and being later in the tech tree.

Infantry are a SERIOUS break point. Once you get infantry/arty, the AI is going to have a hard time stopping that until at least tanks. The AI doesn't use tanks very well though, so you can usually plow through even that and completely own their ill-advised production of paratroopers and marines for fighting infantry. Mech infantry are too strong but that's a big, big window.