Caveman 2 Cosmos

[raxo2222]

Not sure I'd agree with Rocky having Forest on it. Possibly a savannah type, very sparse, but not a full forest really.
I also never really understood why Savannah has a production like Forest has at all. I'd likely make that an extra food instead of a production, from herds wandering the savannah.

Maybe those represent high altitude forests?

 

[raxo2222]

10053

• Removes a point of Disguise visibility from the Law Enforcement unitcombat and adds it throughout each Law Enforcement unit instead. This fixes a buggy reason why Watchers are not being selected as Disguise based See Invisible AI units to be staffed in AI cities and large stacks.
• Adds, for the same reason, a point of Camo visibility to all canine units. This does adjust the visibility power of canines to be a bit stronger overall in balance.
• Adjusts the build priority of see invisible units and adds a filter check that should speed up turn times to a potentially noticeable degree.
• Keeps the Ai from hanging on to infiltrator AIs in their own cities ever.

Didn't you want to reduce building cost globals by 10?
You forgot to do that

On unrelated note I put entire tech tree with their costs and column in my excel file.
Also I added building/tech cost arc graph.
Tech cost grows quicker in 0 - 25 Xgrid, then it slows down and after X50 has steady exponential growth.
Building cost growth is very quick before X10, and then exponential trend stabilizes at X20.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Didn't you want to reduce building cost globals by 10?
You forgot to do that

No. Toffer just raised the research costs. I need to test again to ensure this step is necessary.

 

[raxo2222]

No. Toffer just raised the research costs. I need to test again to ensure this step is necessary.

I know, that he did that.

I wonder if that strategy is all you need for Upscaled Costs gameplay.
He also increased commerce on palace from 8 to 12 too (1.5x increase in initial research), this means very early prehistory is bit faster overall.
400/340 = 1.176x increase in tech cost.
70/80 = 0.875x change in building cost (theoretical).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know, that he did that.

I wonder if that strategy is all you need for Upscaled Costs gameplay.
He also increased commerce on palace from 8 to 12 too (1.5x increase in initial research), this means very early prehistory is bit faster overall.
400/340 = 1.176x increase in tech cost.
70/80 = 0.875x change in building cost (theoretical).

Right, this is a positive offset method for the earliest portion of the game and we discussed doing that a while back. I was glad to see he moved on that plan. I think we may still need a little reduction in construction % but we're closing in on what the players want at least.

 

[Shoobs]

10056

• Fixed errors in CvPlayer which disabled the removal of dead SelectionGroups from NPC's

This should fix the cleanup of dead SelectionGroups from NPC's it was caused by mistakes made almost 6 years ago in.

Revision: 2466
Author: koshling
Date: Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2012 00:18:40
Message:
Adding hypothetical unit pathing capability
Used hypothetical unit pathing to better estimate delivery time on units production tenders
----
Modified : /PDB & DLL archive/CvGameCoreDLL.dll
Modified : /PDB & DLL archive/CvGameCoreDLL.pdb
Modified : /trunk/Assets/CvGameCoreDLL.dll
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvCity.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvContractBroker.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPathGenerator.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPathGenerator.h
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPlayer.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPlayer.h
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPlayerAI.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvPlot.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvSelectionGroup.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvSelectionGroup.h
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvSelectionGroupAI.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvUnit.cpp
Modified : /trunk/Sources/CvUnit.h

This example shows that C2C needs less changes and new additions of stuff but instead more bug fixing.
There might be more issues caused by those changes so i continue to investigate and it might be possible that my change causes CTD's because of bad code in other places but I don't think that should be the case.

Albert? Do you mind if I ask what this actually fixes, what the expected emergent behavior will become?

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Albert? Do you mind if I ask what this actually fixes, what the expected emergent behavior will become?

This bug.

 

[raxo2222]

Sorry, perhaps wrong place, but....
Why is this when I update SVN? What does it means? What action have I to do?

Action Path
Command Update
Updating C:\Users\Utente\Desktop\Cavemanto Cosmos
Skipped, remains conflict C:\Users\Utente\Desktop\Cavemanto Cosmos\Assets\CvGameCoreDLL,dll
Completed at revision 10056
Warning One or more files are in a conflicted state

Any explain please?

Don't post in SVN thread.
Mod folder name MUST be Caveman2Cosmos

Conflict means something went wrong when updating file.
Clean your SVN by rightclicking on mod folder and pressing "cleanup" button.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry, perhaps wrong place, but....
Why is this when I update SVN? What does it means? What action have I to do?

Action Path
Command Update
Updating C:\Users\Utente\Desktop\Cavemanto Cosmos
Skipped, remains conflict C:\Users\Utente\Desktop\Cavemanto Cosmos\Assets\CvGameCoreDLL,dll
Completed at revision 10056
Warning One or more files are in a conflicted state

Any explain please?

While Rax is correct not to post in the SVN thread, he's not completely correct with what you're experiencing. You did something on your end to cause this conflict with the dll. Go into Mods/Assets and right click on the CvGameCoreDLL.dll, which probably has an exclamation mark symbol on it rather than the normal green check mark, and select, under the tortoise selection path, the option that says 'resolve using theirs'. This can also be done when you updated and you still have the update panel on. The conflicted file line will be in RED and you can do the same thing there, right click and resolve using theirs.

You do probably want to do a cleanup command on the whole caveman2cosmos folder afterwards though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Some wild 3am ideas

1. What if we could obsolete Victory conditions. Allowing people to select a Victory Condition that ends the game in the Era they want (and perhaps get rid of the Mastery Victory).
   
   We could bring back the Alpha Century Victory. Oh the screams as you realized you wasted all those resources because you got the obsolete tech too soon.
   
   We could have a "Great Exhibition" style event for the Age of Colonization - need a Culture and Myth from each Earth region + various industrial buildings.
   
   
2. I figured out my problem with the game speed stuff. There is not enough turns in the periods I am interested in I want columns 4 to agriculture to cost 5x what they do now and agriculture to iron working to cost 2x what they do now. After that they can cost half what they do now.
   
   So can we have variable periods like this via options? or something else?
   
   
3. Military use for missionaries - oracles/spiritual advisors to stacks of war. Improving their morale and fanaticism.

 

[Thunderbrd]

What if we could obsolete Victory conditions. Allowing people to select a Victory Condition that ends the game in the Era they want (and perhaps get rid of the Mastery Victory).

We could bring back the Alpha Century Victory. Oh the screams as you realized you wasted all those resources because you got the obsolete tech too soon.

We could have a "Great Exhibition" style event for the Age of Colonization - need a Culture and Myth from each Earth region + various industrial buildings.

I don't think it would be widely popular to replace the victory condition list as it is but other victory conditions could be added.

I figured out my problem with the game speed stuff. There is not enough turns in the periods I am interested in I want columns 4 to agriculture to cost 5x what they do now and agriculture to iron working to cost 2x what they do now. After that they can cost half what they do now.

So can we have variable periods like this via options? or something else?

It sounds like you want to be able to set a game to expand on a particular era. Rather like putting a given era under a magnifying glass. You could make replacement gamespeeds for use under a specified option that does this for a specified era. This solution wouldn't allow these options to be combined - only one of them would work at a time. A special set of calendar XML replacements may also be possible to make it so that the calendar isn't thrown way out of whack when such an option is in play.

Military use for missionaries - oracles/spiritual advisors to stacks of war. Improving their morale and fanaticism.

Might be good to put that in when I work on the morale system. If I can ever get past the trait set, diseases, and all the many bugs to address, that's the next thing to work on for me.

 

[Thunderbrd]

To all... I met with @strategyonly over dinner tonight. Great guy! I'd like to meet all of you in person someday. Really think we need to hold a very well planned C2C convention someday! Anyhow, it was a good chat. Nothing worldbreaking about it but managed to clarify a few small things. We agree we'd like to see C2C become a lot wider known at some point but we do need to clean this release up and hope to keep things better debugged moving forward. Mostly we spent time reminiscing about the years we've all been at this here. Been quite a journey so far. And I don't see it ending anytime soon.

 

[pepper2000]

Great idea. I will be marrying in Vegas once I can get my fiancee's visa approved, so let's meet up then.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Great idea. I will be marrying in Vegas once I can get my fiancee's visa approved, so let's meet up then.

Sounds good to me!

 

[raxo2222]

I found use for Eternity game speed:
Roleplaying without AIs in space maps.
Barbarians could be enabled with raging barbarians and barbarian civs on, so barbarians and neanderthals are spawning and founding new civilizations.
Nightmare handicap would help barbarians and civs, that emerged from barbarians.

Otherwise 3 - 5 minutes per turn in midgame is just too long for Eternity GS.
Was anyone playing without starting AIs but with barbarians, that can become full fledged civilization?

On Eternity speed you will spend at least month if not half of year playing from beginning of game to end.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

10060

I did some fixes and cleanups.
CIV4TechInfos.xml - ..., removed redudnancies in prehistoric era and did minor cleanup.

I have a feeling that we will need to add back in, and place even more, so called redundancies to help the AI "know" as much as the player given how much the AI does not look beyond the next step. This wont just be in the Tech tree either.

 

[raxo2222]

I have a feeling that we will need to add back in, and place even more, so called redundancies to help the AI "know" as much as the player given how much the AI does not look beyond the next step. This wont just be in the Tech tree either.

Well @Thunderbrd removed some redundancies, that he noticed when he untangled tech tree before V38 release.
There were only four such techs in prehistoric era.

Trapping required Basketry/Deception/Tracking, but Deception is already covered by Tracking prereq.
Trapping now requires Basketry/Tracking instead.

Theft required Trapping/Cooperation/Scavenging, but Cooperation and Scavenging already are covered by Trapping.
Theft now requires Trapping.

Drying required Trap Fishing/Skinning/Binding, but Trap Fishing and Binding already requires Skinning.
Drying now requires Trap Fishing/Binding.

Megalith Construction required Mysticism/Arithmetic/Slavery but Mysticism already requires Arithmetic.
Megalith Construction now requires Mysticism/Slavery.

SVN 9847, committed by Thunderbrd.

[*]Massive tech tree audit. Some tech y positions were changed. Numerous prerequisites were reorganized. A FEW techs picked up some very minor prereq changes. This was an audit for gateway tech integrity to ensure no player could skip an era gateway tech on the way into a new era AND to untangle the mess of criss-crossing arrows representing OR Tech Prereqs. While there are still a couple of arrows that go under another tech or cross in a slightly confusing manner with other arrows, all should be completely followable under close evaluation now. This is in part for aesthetics but also so that players can have the confidence to be able to read the OR/AND prerequisite structure on the tech tree with 100% accuracy under study, provided they understand that the lines represent OR prereqs and the AND prereqs show in the upper right corner.
[*]A correction in the DLL to the last update where I inverted the intended religious button displayed whether the religion is researched or not.
[*]An adjustment to XP earned math when a unit possesses a less than 0% modifier total to that amount. Units should never be earning NO XP from a conflict now unless the amount just vanishes in a final round-down of less than .1 XP total earned.

4 techs per 100 with redundant AND (are all icon prereqs AND prereqs?) requirements doesn't matter much for AI.
Pepper is going to clear such redundant prereqs for Nanotech and later eras.
Edit: There are more such techs later...
At least it would make Beeline Stings option not sting AI too hard.

Here is how I check for redundancies:

Spoiler :

In this example I check if Negotiation AND prereq (Sailing) is redudnant.
I select Sedentary Lifestyle, which is OR prereq for Negotiation (white arrow).
Sailing isn't selected in this case, this means Sailing isn't redundant.

Checking Ancient era techs.

Spoiler :

Ideograms requires Sedentary Lifestyle/Pictograms, but Pictograms is already is covered by Sedentary Lifestyle prereqs.
Ideograms will require Sedentary Lifestyle.

Pottery requires Agriculture/Ideograms/Earth Oven, but Earth Oven is already covered by Agriculture/Ideograms prereqs.
Pottery will require Agriculture/Ideograms.

Bread Making requires Agriculture/Earth Oven, but Earth Oven is already covered by Agriculture prereqs.
Bread Making will require Agriculture.

Consciousness requires Community/Celebration, but Celebration is already covered by Community prereqs
Consciouness will require Community.

Folk Music requires Community/Prehistoric Music, but Prehistoric Music is already covered by Community prereqs.
Folk Music will require Community.

Folk Dance requires Community/Prehistoric Dance, but Prehistoric Dance is already covered by Community prereqs.
Folk Dance will require Community.

Ancestor Worship requires Pottery/Celebration but Celebration is already covered by Pottery Prereqs.
Ancestor Worship will require Pottery.

Board Games requires Standardization/Ideograms, but Ideograms is already covered by Standardization prereqs.
Board Games will require Standardization.

Salt Processing requires Masonry/Drying, but Drying is already covered by Masonry prereqs.
Salt Processing will require Masonry.

Soap Making requires Folk Medicine/Salt Processing/Fermentation, but Fermentation is already covered by Folk Medicine itself.
Soap Making will require Folk Medicine and Salt Processing.

Piracy requires Trade/Fermentation/Naval Warfare, but Naval Warfare is already covered by Trade prereqs.
Piracy will require Trade/Fermentation.

Candle Making requires Priesthood/Soap Making/Apiculture, but Apiculture is already covered by Soap Making prereqs.
Candle Making will require Priesthood/Soap Making.

Cuisine requires Specialization/Gardening/Fermentation, but Fermentation is already covered by Specialization prereqs.
Cuisine will require Specialization and Gardening.

Monotheism requires Writing/Sacrifice Cult/Masonry, but Masonry is already covered by Writing prereqs.
Monotheism will require Writing/Sacrifice Cult.

Seafaring requires Locks/Sundial/Piracy, but Piracy prereq is already covered by Locks prereqs.
Seafaring will require Locks/Sundial.

Polytheism requires Resurrection/Sculpture/Stargazing/Dualism, but Stargazing is required by Resurrection
Polytheism will require Resurrection/Sculpture/Dualism.

Glass Blowing requires Central Heating/Bronze Working/Masonry, but Masonry is already covered by Central Heating/Bronze Working prereqs.
Glass Blowing will require Central Heating/Bronze Working.

Judaism requires Monotheism/Resurrection/Scriptures, but Monotheism is already required by Scriptures.
Judaism will require Resurrection/Scriptures. This will make tech arrowless like Shamanism.

Hinduism requires Scriptures/Karma/Folk Dance, but Folk Dance is already covered by Karma prereqs.
Hinduism will require Scriptures/Karma.

Canaaism requires Polytheism/Pottery/Caste System/Stargazing, but Stargazing/Pottery/Caste System is already covered by Polytheism prereqs.
Canaaism will require Polytheism. It is Custom Religions tech.
And those are all Ancient techs with redundancies.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The problem is that the AI tends to only look at one level.

Trapping required Basketry/Deception/Tracking, but Deception is already covered by Tracking prereq.
Trapping now requires Basketry/Tracking instead.

Which means that Deception is now not as valuable to the AI as it used to be.

It is probably not as important in the tech tree but it is a problem with buildings. Especially building chains. By not indicating all the buildings a building is required for you reduce its value in the calculation for what to build next.

Example: If building A is needed for building B and building B is needed for building C and D.

If you only say building B requires building A and buildings C and D only require building B the AI does not take into consideration the importance of building D when deciding if it should build building A.

However if you have buildings C and D also require building A you have a redundancy but the AI will take into consideration the importance of buildings C and D when deciding if it should build A. This is something a human player would take into account.​

 

[raxo2222]

The problem is that the AI tends to only look at one level.

Which means that Deception is now not as valuable to the AI as it used to be.

It is probably not as important in the tech tree but it is a problem with buildings. Especially building chains. By not indicating all the buildings a building is required for you reduce its value in the calculation for what to build next.

Example: If building A is needed for building B and building B is needed for building C and D.

If you only say building B requires building A and buildings C and D only require building B the AI does not take into consideration the importance of building D when deciding if it should build building A.

However if you have buildings C and D also require building A you have a redundancy but the AI will take into consideration the importance of buildings C and D when deciding if it should build A. This is something a human player would take into account.​

So all redundancies in tech tree, building tech requirements (Building requires X and Y techs, but X is required by Y anyway) and building requirements accidental or not are helping AI.

Ah so AI is inside of tech tree, and inside of tech tree is very opaque
Is it possible to make AI look at two levels of tech tree?
That is if X leads to X1 and X2, where X1 leads to X1a, X1b and X2 leads to X2a, X2b, X2c, then AI would see X leading to 2 techs on first level and 5 unique techs on second level.

Players see 160 layers of tech tree anyway
You can get from first to last column in less than 160 steps anyway by checking where tech leads next

Still AI would research Deception when going for Tracking or Trapping sooner or later.
With Beeline Stings long tunnels between two techs means more risk too.

As for buildings requiring other buildings redundancies are fine.
About half of tech redundancies were in first three columns after Sedentary Lifestyle tech.

Classical techs.

Spoiler :

Ship Building requires Classical Lifestyle/Seafaring, but Seafaring is already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Ship Building will require Classical Lifestyle.

Aristocracy requires Classical Lifestyle/Falconry/Caste System, but Caste system is already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Aristocracy will require Classical Lifestyle and Falconry.

Military Training requires Classical Lifestyle/Board Games/Linguistics, but Linguistics/Board Games are already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Military Training will require Classical Lifestyle.

Mathematics requires Classical Lifestyle/Board Games, but Board Games are already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Mathematics will require Classical Lifestyle.

Mail requires Classical Lifestyle/Scriptures/Linguistics, but Linguistics are already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Mail will require Classical Lifestyle/Scriptures.

Alphabet requires Classical Lifestyle/Linguistics, but Linguistics are already covered by Classical Lifestyle prereqs.
Alphabet will require Classical Lifestyle.

Horse Breeding requires Military Tactics/Equine Domestication/Animal Riding, but Equine Domestication is already covered by Military Training and directly by Animal Riding prereqs.
Horse Breeding will require Military Training/Animal Riding.

Geometry requires Mathematics/Sundial, but Sundial is already covered by Mathematics prereqs.
Geometry will require Mathematics.

Calendar requires Geometry/Sailing, but Sailing is already covered by Geometry prereqs.
Calendar will require Geometry.

Construction requires Road Building/Hydraulic Mining/Ancient Machinery/Monarchy, but Monarchy is already covered by Road Building/Ancient Machinery prereqs.
Construction will require Road Building/Hydraulic Mining/Ancient Machinery.

Democracy requires Code of Laws/Alphabet/Currency/Mathematics, but Alphaet is already required by Code of Laws.
Democracy will require Code of Laws/Currency/Mathematics.

Spice Trade requires Calendar/Diplomacy/Cuisine/Salt Processing, but Cuisine is already covered by Calendar prereqs.
Spice Trade will require Calendar/Diplomacy/Salt Processing.

Ancient Ballistics requires Construction/Oil Lamps/Ship Building, but Oil Lamp is already covered by Construction/Ship Building prereqs.
Ancient Ballistics will require Construction/Ship Building.

Concrete requires Construction/Glass Blowing/Road Building, but Construction already requires Road Building.
Concrete will require Construction/Glass Blowing.

Drug Trade requires Spice Trade/Law Enforcement/Ancient Medicine, but Ancient Medicine already requires Law Enforcement.
Drug Trade will require Spice trade/Ancient Medicine.

Canal Systems require City Planning/Irrigation/Construction but Irrigation already is covered by City Planning/Construction.
Canal Systems will require City Planning/Construction.

Siege Warfare requires Ancient Ballistics/Military Training/Chariotry/Iron Working, but Military Training is already covered by Ancient Ballistics.
Siege Warfare will require Ancient Ballistics/Chariotry/Iron Working.

Philosophy requires Meritocracy/Mathematics, but Mathematics is already covered by Meritocracy.
Philosophy will require Meritocracy.

Aesthetics requires Calligraphy/Furniture Making/Geometry/Sericulture, but Geometry is already covered by Calligraphy prereqs.
Aesthetics will require Calligraphy/Furniture Making/Sericulture.

Drama requires Aesthetics/Oratory/Folk Dance/Combat Sports/Literature, but Oratory/Literature is already covered by Aesthetics prereqs
Drama will require Aesthetics/Folk Dance.

Floristry requires Aesthetics/Gardening, but Gardening is already covered by Aesthetics prereqs.
Floristry will require Aesthetics

Sanitation requires Canal Systems/Lead Working/Ancient Medicine, but Lead Working already is covered by Canal Systems.
Sanitation will require Canal Systems/Ancient Medicine.

Musical Notation requires Drama/Folk Music/Mathematics, but Mathematics is already covered by Drama.
Musical Notation will require Drama/Folk Music.
Classical Era is finished.

I connected floating techs.
It was moving up and down except Shamanism, that I swapped places and moving column .
Shamanism now is connected with arrow, but I had to swap places - basically it was on top of column and now is at bottom of column.
Piracy, Sculpture and Board Games are connected to techs with arrows now.
It looked harder than it actually was, opposite of connecting Shamanism to tech tree with arrow.
Fixed floating Judaism on my side (removed its redundancies) and accordingly changed places of techs in game and in file.
Changed Diplomacy so it is connected with arrow.
Moved Executions and Surveying out of way, so Alchemy can have OR requirement with Engineering.
Swapped Colonialism with Navigation and Mercantilism with Corporation, so Heliocentrism could get OR requirement.
Moved one tech out of lawn, so Barbed Wire can have OR prereq with Agricultural Engineering.
Moved techs under Civil Engineering one Ygrid down so Artillery can have OR prereq with Semiautomatic Weapons.

Spoiler :

 

[Toffer90]

Thanks, I was asked earlier by other members on forums if I wanted to join, but I was reluctant.
Thunderbrd sent private message as official invitation to team essentially

The invitation was discussed internally in the team before it was sent. ^^

Welcome to the team, make sure you run the debug .dll once before making any substantial commits, play a turn or two from a save to be sure.
It can pick up some xml errors/inconsistencies that otherwise would not throw any error messages on the regular .dll.

Edit: also, please refrain from small talk and discussions in the SVN changelog thread; the same goes for joseph who you responded to. ^^