Challenge-II-06

[Dynamic]

After first try on Settler level this time I played Prince because its middle level between Settler and Deity and also the last level where starting Warrior rush is effective.

I've played again on the Rain Forest map partly because my current space strategy is very good for such map, partly for correct comparing with pevious Settler game.

I added 3 more civs to starting list for more compact placement of AI for sucsess early rush. Ideal starting position is at centre of the map but rendom generator put me there very seldom so I started in the rigth down corner. River, 2 Pigs, Bananas, Marble and Gems, several grass and hills, several Forests - isn't very good for Cottage spam, but quite good for building. But the main requirement to Prince start is fast capturing 1 or 2 neighbour Capitals. This time my starting Warrior has entered to empty Asoka's city with 2 Gold in city radius - very good. Next target was Wang Kon. I used 3-Warrior rush but only random saved me - he built 2d Warrior 1 turn before I attacked. But suddenly my first Warrior killed defending Warrior and next turn I had 3 vs 1 so Seoul stayed mine.

After completing my starting goal (got 2 AI Capitals) my Warriors explored the Map and located all other AI, Copper, Silver and Stone. Silver and Stone were on average and far distance so I couldn't capture its fast, so my next 3 cities was in home region and located Copper and food places. Next goal was Civil Service via Oracle - got successfully in 1225BC (But I researched Alphabet first and traded for Iron Working).

Having in mind my previous Settler game, where I expanded too slow, this time I delayed Education but accelerate expansion. I founded 6 more cities, locate Silver, Stone, some Calendar resources, place for NP and simply other good spots. I reserched Metal Casting and Music before Education because my cities were built Settlers and Workers and just weren't ready to build Universities. Finally I got Education in 215BC and Oxford near 50BC.

Next target was Machinery+Engineering then fight against Willem for his 6 cities near my region. The war was successfull + 1 barb city was captured. I also founded 3 more own cities in good places. Capital built Wonders but not Pyramids - I hadn't room for that before it was too late - revolution could kill all advantage from Representation.

So, I had more then 20 cities and my way to Communism via Liberalism was quite slow - I got it in 655AD, started GA and Revolt to State Property + Representation. Note, I got 2d and 3d GS at this time so I used it for bulbing Scientific Method and Biology (700 AD). At the and of GA I also revolted to Caste System+Pacifism from Slavery+OR.

After discovering Steam Power I found that I have no Coal.
But there were 2 free Coals on the map so I founded my last 23-d city near the Coal far away.

Next step - Assembly Line (950AD) and double GA (2GP+Taj Mahal), Factories and Coal Plants in the most cities.

Then Industrialism (I had Aluminium ) - Rocketry - Superconductors - then my standart finish sequence Fiber Optics-Fission-Fusion (4th GA)-Satellites-Composites-Medicine-Genetics-Ecology and launch SS next turn.

P.S. Finish in 1440AD.

 

[Dynamic]

Interesting thing, the most of Deity Epic/Normal Space Colony games are PA-OCC. What is the appropriate date for game without these settings?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Interesting thing, the most of Deity Epic/Normal Space Colony games are PA-OCC. What is the appropriate date for game without these settings?

Please define "appropriate date".

What is your goal for specifying "without these settings" = PA & OCC? There are additional settings that must be met for the Game to qualify for Challenge II Game 6, like:

Starting Era: Ancient
Map Size: Small
Required: No Vassal States, No Tribal Villages
Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians, Random Personalities, Permanent Alliances, One City Challenge
Civ: Maya (Pacal)
Opponents: Must include England (Elizabeth), Korea (Wang Kon), Mali (Mansa Musa), Netherlands (Willem Van Oranje)
Version: 3.19.003

If you provide additional clarification about what you are looking for, I'd be happy to answer. Caveat: However, I've only won two Space Colony games (both Deity level and both using OCC & PA; one of which won G-Major-71), so my answer would definitely be suspect.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

Please define "appropriate date".

What is your goal for specifying "without these settings" = PA & OCC?
Sun Tzu Wu

You understand right. I meant that current game 6 requires NO PA and NO OCC but the most of HOF-table games used these options. So we haven't enough HOF entries as examples for understanding what the finish date is available for strong player. But it's needed for creating right Level Equalizing Formula.

P.S. If we exclude 2 Ironheads Classic games the best finish date with settings near Game 6 is 1897 AD. But it's obviously poor result so we haven't examples at all...

 

[AgedOne]

@Dynamic
You can get a little something by querying the small / epic / space colony submissions at emperor and immortal, and guess where the best times are heading.

At deity, as you pointed out, the best results are using OCC and PA. In fact both are Misotu, obviously trying the same EQM slot for Wang within 2 days of each other. That leaves ssjos' entry, which might well be beatable by top players.

Down at immortal, there are a lot more entries. 10 in total, and only 3 using the PA / OCC settings. The best is by Ironhead, at 1764AD, followed by srad with 1820AD.

Move on down to emperor, and you've got 48 submissions, only one using OCC / PA! The top scores here are Ironhead (again) on 1704AD, your good self just behind at 1706, and then srad again at 1800.

You might take a guess that Ironhead, following the line of previous results, would be aiming for a deity finish just into the 1800s.

I can't pretend it's an exact science, but that's what I would be aiming for if I could beat deity at space colony (which I can't).

One factor that tends to throw this kind of reasoning off, is that for an EQM or QM attempt, the player often tries it only a few times and gives up happy when they have a score on the board. When a challenge or a gauntlet is going on, many players will try the same set-up again and again to try to shave a few turns off their best time, until the close date comes up. Given that, I might expect a deity player to beat 1800AD on this challenge - eventually!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You understand right. I meant that current game 6 requires NO PA and NO OCC but the most of HOF-table games used these options. So we haven't enough HOF entries as examples for understanding what the finish date is available for strong player. But it's needed for creating right Level Equalizing Formula.

P.S. If we exclude 2 Ironheads Classic games the best finish date with settings near Game 6 is 1897 AD. But it's obviously poor result so we haven't examples at all...

I suggest that we need to widen the net to allow all Speeds and all Maps sized Small or Larger. The caveat is Speed = Marathon and Player = Darius I/Cyrus might be over powered and an argument for dismissing them could be made, but I'd suggest they be allowed/considered. See Ad-hoc Query for possible useful data:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/adhoc_query.php?show=summ&condition[]=9&difficulty[]=9&speed[]=1&speed[]=2&speed[]=3&speed[]=4&mapSize[]=3&mapSize[]=4&mapSize[]=5&mapSize[]=6&civ=-1&maptype=-1&era=-1&exp=0&pubID=108&exclinca=on&submit=Go

Items 8 and 9 seem close enough to this Challenge game to be useful; no overwhelming unique unit like Quechua, Immortal, War Chariot, Vulture or Praetorian.

Note that Inca was excluded, since it is overpowered for at least Marathon and Epic speeds.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

Of course, I've looked Ad-hoc Query before I started this discussion.
But I strongly think that we may not include Marathon speed to our estimation. I've played it and have checked others' games so I can say that right played Marathon game in the most cases lead over different speeds for ages.

Of corse, I have my suspiction what the date interval for this should be. But I've never played Deity so I've asked other players. Of course, This date should be before 1800AD, but I don't know how much earlier... It looks like there is the single way to know this - play it myself. But I don't like the highest levels (just don't like) so I hoped to know the tournament's formula before I start playing...

 

[Debanad]

Managed to eke out a win on Immortal.

Used 'Big and Small' and added Bismarck and Ghandi to push the tech pace. Started on a small island with a really nice capital with plenty of food and 2 gems. Got two other good city placements along with 2 other cities with very few resources. Turned out there were no other civs on my island...but also no rivers . Used a workboat to find the rest of the civs and start trading, and took 2 barb cities on a nearby island with macemen.

With no rivers but lots of food around I went pure SE and whipping, brokering techs as much as I could. Got everyone to at least +8 with me so I wouldn't have to worry about DOW (My capital was defended by a warrior the entire game). When the modern age hit just about everyone was on tech parity, with Bismarck a bit behind. The way the map worked out from the top to bottom civ (usually me) there was only a 20% or so difference in power.

Decided I didn't want anyone beating me to space so I traded some tech and some gold to get everyone but myself involved in a world war, which gave me time to put a decent tech lead on everyone else. Used 2x engi to rush the Elevator and I'd figured I had won. MM scared me to death when I saw he had 2 cities 50k+ culture and another at 46k, so I got most of the world to DOW him. Hit the turn that put him over 50k and was resigned to defeat, then when I didn't lose realized he needed 75k on epic .

Finished up my spaceship, landed in 1904, about 15 turns before MM went legendary.

Obviously not a spectacular time, but I think this is probably my first non-cheese Immortal Spacerace victory so i'm rather pleased with that. Also managed to do it without fighting any other civ.

 

[Dynamic]

Fast SS requires enough amount of cities, 20-30 for Small and Standart sizes. But on high levels there isn't enough room for peacful expand (only on standart size with min AI). So we sould fight for the territory and cities. But it's difficult (in time) if AI placed on the other continent, so IMHO we should choose maps where several of AI live on the same land with us.

 

[shulec]

I need help! I keep getting worked over on this one. I am trying to break into deity level and this one is a monster!

This is what I have settled on as the best approach:
Map: Fractal (Best for choke points and multiple neighbors for trade)
Number of opponents: Six (Liz, Mansa, Wang, Willem, plus Qin Shi Huang & Huayna)
Seas: Low sea level (to make enough land for six civs)

I chose to add the Incas and Chinese to break up the lovefest that Wang Kon, Mansa, Liz and Willem make if left unchecked. I chose them for their favorite civs to try to keep them somewhat happy. My goal is to get Rifles and Cannons before my neighbors. Then try to take down two of them and then sprint to a Space Victory.

The problems I have encountered are associated with falling too far behind in teching once I start warring. The runaway teching civs get too far out of hand and their war defenses too strong to overcome. I admit that I have no skills with nukes, and this may be where the answers lie.

In my current game, I have about 19 cities and may or may not get the 20th before my war machine is decimated. Even if I do get it, it will probably flip to culture. I have backstabbed all of my friends and everyone is cautious or annoyed with me except Mansa who will dislike me once I go to free religion. I fear I will be left with no trading partners and will be primed for an AI deity beatdown.

I have a big lead in cities, but they are somewhat backwards. I fear that I will have go kill a culture city from the tech leader overseas and maybe one Spaceship capitol city.

I have tried pangaea and felt there was not enough land. I tried archipelago for blocking, but there was not enough land and too many ocean tiles in cities.

Any suggestions are welcome.



Update. As predicted the culture leader needed to lose a city. I took down the coastal capitol about 10 turns from the third city going legendary. Mission accomplished. The next turn, I got bribe dogpiled by two of my neighbors. Game, set, match.

 

[Dynamic]

What the date was when you stopped the game?
May be try to win with small amount of cities? I've never played Deity but I think it's possible to win by SS before somebody reaches Culture even with 5-8 cities...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I need help! I keep getting worked over on this one. I am trying to break into deity level and this one is a monster!

This is what I have settled on as the best approach:
Map: Fractal (Best for choke points and multiple neighbors for trade)
Number of opponents: Six (Liz, Mansa, Wang, Willem, plus Qin Shi Huang & Huayna)
Seas: Low sea level (to make enough land for six civs)

Settings:

Map: Big and Small (for maximum effect of Sid's Sushi)
Opponents: Go with the minimum, required Four (more land for everyone and more Sid's Sushi Resources for trade)
Sea Level: Low (Usually best for Space Colony, Culture and TUN Diplomatic, since there's more space for initial REX)

Research path:

beeline Pottery -> Writing, rush Library -> run 2 Scientists -> Great Scientist -> Academy while beelining Alphabet
beeline Civil Service
beeline Education -> build 5 Univesities -> build Oxford University in the Capital
beeline Liberalism
beeline/trade Astronomy (build Observatories)
beeline Biology (build National Park)
beeline Medicine (found Sid's Sushi with saved Great Merchant)
beeline/trade Railroad (maybe found Mining, Inc. with saved Great Engineer)
beeline Superconductors (build Laboratories)

Key Civics: Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Mercantilism, Free Market or Environmentalism, Pacifism.

I chose to add the Incas and Chinese to break up the lovefest that Wang Kon, Mansa, Liz and Willem make if left unchecked. I chose them for their favorite civs to try to keep them somewhat happy. My goal is to get Rifles and Cannons before my neighbors. Then try to take down two of them and then sprint to a Space Victory.

Usually, one AI will found Buddhism and another with found Hinduism, so there would be a natural split. If all AIs share the same Religion, that is even better, assuming you have that Religion also, since this would permit adopting Pacifism without any risk.

If you REX well (5 Cities is enough for Oxford University), you may not need to rush at all.

If you want to Rush AIs, use an early Axeman rush or use Pacal's unique unit, the Holkan, which does require Hunting but no Copper.

The problems I have encountered are associated with falling too far behind in teching once I start warring. The runaway teching civs get too far out of hand and their war defenses too strong to overcome. I admit that I have no skills with nukes, and this may be where the answers lie.

Nuking a City twice on the same turn will nearly always eliminate all Defenders. You could take the City with a Chariot/Horse Archer/Axeman/Swordsman. Normally, you would want Paratroopers to approach a City quickly and take it after the double Nuke.

In my current game, I have about 19 cities and may or may not get the 20th before my war machine is decimated. Even if I do get it, it will probably flip to culture. I have backstabbed all of my friends and everyone is cautious or annoyed with me except Mansa who will dislike me once I go to free religion. I fear I will be left with no trading partners and will be primed for an AI deity beatdown.

I'd say that is far too many Cities. What is your Research slider at? Do you have a Cottage, Specialist or Hybrid Economy? I'd guess that Hybrid would be best.

Don't back stab all your friends. What is the profit in doing that? Rushing 0-2 AI Civs should be sufficient.

I have a big lead in cities, but they are somewhat backwards. I fear that I will have go kill a culture city from the tech leader overseas and maybe one Spaceship capitol city.

You want 5-8 Cities (like Dynamic suggested). Preferably no World Wonders; Concentrate on National Wonders. One World Wonder like The Pyramids with Stone or The Great Library with Marble may be OK. With The Pyramids, one will want several high food sites to run Representation Scientists. Also, since Pacal II starts with Mysticism, a Civil Service sling-shot via The Oracle is a bit easier and Marble is not necessarily as essential as fast Researching is.

I have tried pangaea and felt there was not enough land. I tried archipelago for blocking, but there was not enough land and too many ocean tiles in cities.

Archipelago Map with Archipelago type Islands should be OK. Inland Sea would be better than Pangaea. However, Big and Small is the best Map for Space Colony in my opinion.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

Thanks for the suggestions. These are a major departure from my current approach. I think a totally different approach is more likely to either be advantageous or offer insight that will help with a "fusion" strategy.

P.S. My deity failures have been extremely educational. If I can motivate myself, I will replay half of my last game, which was by far my best attempt, and see if I can without without my second war which was really minimally fruitful.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks for the suggestions. These are a major departure from my current approach. I think a totally different approach is more likely to either be advantageous or offer insight that will help with a "fusion" strategy.

The critical thing any strategy does for you is gives you an early Research lead that you can maintain through the end of the Game. If you can so this and get adequate production in most of your Cities for SS part production, it shouldn't be too hard to Win.

I would advise against any rush, early or later, since your Research inertia is likely to suffer a lot as you build up for the War, during the War and as your economy recovers from the War.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

Settings:

Map: Big and Small (for maximum effect of Sid's Sushi)
Big and Small is the best Map for Space Colony in my opinion.

Sun Tzu Wu

I am not a believer. I see Big and Small as a bad deity map for this game. This could be due to my limitations. I expect the deity AI's to spam cities on the small islands and exclude me. If I tried to spam, I would expect my economy to crash. If I waited until my civ is up and running, I would expect the "small" islands would be gone. Therefore, I would expect Sid's Sushi to be worthless.

 

[Dynamic]

I also think Big and Small is too tight. One of the reasons I use Rainforest is slow AI expansion but I haven't tryed it on Deity.
But this map has main disadvantage - we need 2-3 workers per city for good development.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I am not a believer. I see Big and Small as a bad deity map for this game. This could be due to my limitations. I expect the deity AI's to spam cities on the small islands and exclude me. If I tried to spam, I would expect my economy to crash. If I waited until my civ is up and running, I would expect the "small" islands would be gone. Therefore, I would expect Sid's Sushi to be worthless.

Do not try to settle the islands; you want all your Cities to be heavy Hammer Cities with the exception of the Capital which should be loaded with Cottages.

All your Cities should be in the main Continent. Be sure to specify Massive Continents. That will usually cause one Massive Continent to be generated.

The AIs will be happy to trade Sid's Sushi Resources to you for 4 Wpt each. Build five Banks and Wall Street in the City where you founded Sid's Sushi, possibly the Capital. That and maybe a few Markets and Grocers should pay for the Sid's Sushi branches and the cost of trading for Sid's Sushi Resources.

Remember to use just four Opponents.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[greatbeyond]

Three attempts so far at this challenge, all at Settler level. Why Settler? I'm not big on SR and need to explore the mechanics. I looked in the war Academy for a good SR win write up but there isn't one. The other reason to pick Settler is I haven't read what the difficulty level adjustment is, are the higher levels worth it? (Setting aside the battered ego from being beaten by someone playing at a much higher level!)

I started out the Challenge 2-1 (Domination) at Emperor thinking a higher level would result in a better adjusted score. Boy, was I wrong. It seemed the games dragged on forever and look at all the results on Settler. That convinced me to drop down a level and then just concede and play Settler.The number 1 date looks unbeatable based on my 50 or so games.

Anyhow, first attempt on Settler was a long drawn out affair that is incomplete but will result in such a late date, it isn't worth finishing. The second game started out with a bloodfest, inspired perhaps by all the practice at Domination. I had captured two of the four AI capitals in the first 15 turns, leaving korea and the Dutch. I finished 1782AD which seems pretty late to me. I spent a little too much time on wonders, thinking I could use a boatload of great people to hurry my tech pace. I think it would have been better to emphasize growth first. Either way I never had to worry about any attacks from the AI and when I launched, their LB's were looking up in awe at my spaceship. It wasn't even necessary to go to war with them. As it was I had to watch to keep just under the Domination limit.

The current game has lead me to speculate on what is the best course to take; expansion by Settler or conquest? Is it worth letting the AIs live to tech trade with them? I tend to think not, as I don't want to be like an earlier poster and get beat out by 2 turns by another AI. Of course this means self research after the early years.
Then of course there is the research path. I haven't really come up with a "best path" but have used Lib. to take Physics for the free scientist. I was so far ahead of the AI, I could wait on Lib. for quite some time to get the most expensive tech from it.

The funniest thing about this current game is I almost considered forgetting about submitting it for the Challenger series and making it a HOF entry as I had killed off all but Mansa within ~20 turns and was looking at his undefended Capital! Of course this was an aberration with all the AIs being settled so close to my starting point, something I had not seen before. Perhaps I will regret this decision if I don't get a decent finish date.

 

[Denniz]

The funniest thing about this current game is I almost considered forgetting about submitting it for the Challenger series and making it a HOF entry as I had killed off all but Mansa within ~20 turns and was looking at his undefended Capital! Of course this was an aberration with all the AIs being settled so close to my starting point, something I had not seen before. Perhaps I will regret this decision if I don't get a decent finish date.

No descision to make. Every submission is for the HOF. If it matches the Challenge settings then it shows up there too.

 

[greatbeyond]

Does that mean I can go back to this spot in the game and eliminate Mansa for the fastest Conquest win on a small map at Settler?