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Challenge-XVI-08

Discussion in 'Hall of Fame Challenger Series' started by Noble Zarkon, May 31, 2015.

  1. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Monarch (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but your best submission meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
    (*) Games must be played using the >> BUFFY MOD 3.19.003 <<
    (*) Games to be submitted via the >> Civ IV Hall of Fame Website <<
    (*) New players, please >> register << using your CFC forum name


    Settings:
    • Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Deity
    • Starting Era: Ancient
    • Map Size: Small
    • Speed: Epic
    • Map Type: Pangaea
    • Civ: Ottoman
    • Opponents: Any
    • Version: 3.19.003 or 3.19.003s
    • Date: 30th May to 25th November 2015
    Must not play as Inca.
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    220AD

    Start was decent, not great, but got boxed in very quickly. I popped pottery from a hut on T1, which made me give it a shot. Beelined alpha to backfill AH and BW and other stuff, only to find I had no metals or horses. :( But I had elephants. Missed oracle construction by 1 turn... But man those elephants were great once I finally got there. :hammer::hammer:

    I wanted to peacevassal Gandhi and thought I met all conditions. He was friendly with me and my only vassal, I wasn't at war, he was a land target, I had more than 1.5 times his power and as far as I could tell he was below average power. Still he was doing fine on his own. How is average power calculated? TotalSoldiers/NumberOfPlayersAlive? Is it the average of all civs, or the average of all AI civs?

    If I had managed to peacevassal him, it would have been a BC win. Instead he got to pikes, castles, longbows and maces. I was probably a bit too careful when I attacked him, as I didn't really know what to expect. Could have done it sooner and shaved a few turns off.

    Anyway, first military deity win ever. Only second time I tried though, last time was a few years ago. Glad I've learned something. :king:
     
  3. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    What was Gandhi's response for not wanting to Vassal? Were you at war at that time, or was he?
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Edited the answer to both those question within one minute of posting. You are fast!

    I wasn't at war and he was doing fine on his own.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    You missed a great chance to get +1 posts to your post counter ;) .

    I'm guessing that you had too little land for Gandhi, you either need twice the land or twice the population for an AI to considering vassaling to you, as one almost never has twice the population, I assume that you lacked land. Afaik, Vassal-territory also isn't taken into the calculation of this, so if the victory-screen tells you that you have twice of his land, that doesn't need to say anything either.
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Of course, you're right. He had nice inland cities and my empire was squeezed along the coast, mostly fresh conquered cities with no culture to speak off. And empire whipped to the ground, as expected. Didn't even think of that. I had 10 cities and he had 3, so I somehow automatically assumed I would meet either land or pop condition.
     
  7. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Hey deity players, any tips here?

    I cannot handle this game ;/ Sth goes wrong always. Either lack of commerce or AIs getting Monarchy - Feudalism too early, Last game I managed to take all India and half German land, then went bunkrupt o_O

    1) How to steal workers effectively = when. I suppose 1 worker is not worth risking? AIs dont want to cease fire even after killing some scouts, then come with few archers and thats the end.
    2) The best settings? High sea is obvious but flat for lower maintanace or toroidal for micro land? Most desired leaders? De Gaulee + Lincoln/Gandhi (worried to miss Oracle)/ Isa (worried again but easy to bribe, no unit spam)/ which of Americans / any German?
    3) Leader. Does Org mean a lot here? At least enough to counter Philo trait for math bulb?
    4) Techs: roll pig map and go straight AH - HBR or add Writing for Math bulb or even Alpha to trade for hunting + archery? I noticed Alpha is rather late with 4 leaders, at least I am always first to writing, no matter which path I take. Or try to Oracle - is it common worth to Oracle HBR? (fe. Math bulb, Oracle HBR, selftech construction?)

    ---

    2 challanges ago I won 1st Deity, but it was religious with Hatty, which was not difficult with 2 early priest slots. But conquest? I cannot do it ;/
     
  8. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Wouldn't quite classify myself as a deity player yet, but I can tell you some thoughts based on my game.

    I went with Mehmed for cheap workers and granaries, didn't plan on bulbing anything. Org probably came in handy as well as I didn't go bankrupt. In the final save it is saving me 25gpt, which isn't much, but it makes the difference between running a deficit or a surplus at 0% slider. Though the main key to not going bankrupt is to keep that conquest gold rolling in. Never slow down unit production, keep reinforcing your army so that you always can move onto the next target as soon as possible.

    Not sure about best settings. I went toroidal aiming at micro pangaea. My map was 360 tiles, which I later learned isn't one. The small micro pangaeas can have as few as 240 tiles. However, when I later tried a few games with maps like that (for a different slot), I noticed the AI would expand to 2-3 cities, run out of space and stuff to build, then spam tons of units. Doesn't necessarily make it easier. I don't know about tile counts for flat or cylindrical maps, but if it doesn't go well over 400, it might be worth it to go with one of those.

    All I know about worker stealing is that it gets much harder on deity. It's harder to get peace and harder to prevent the AI from hooking up metals. I stole one from Gandhi and had to give him writing for peace when I saw him hook up copper with no possibility to stop him. The nice thing with Gandhi is that he was pleased with me almost immediately after taking peace. :)

    Can't say much about optimal tech order, depends on map and how you are planning to win this, I suppose. I popped pottery from a hut and went mining-writing-alpha, then backfilled through trades. Oracle construction would sure be nice though, if you have elephants. Or maybe oracle currency.

    I'd recommend elepult as the preferred mode of war, if you are not very experienced with early deity warfare. It's ridiculously strong before feud and engineering. I always run into economical problems if I try HA-rushing on this level. If you have a neighbor without metals and find iron yourself, some early swords could be an interesting option to grab some more cities and forests for elephant production. You can usually trade for IW early, so it doesn't delay key economical techs like HBR does.

    If you can keep the AI busy fighting each other, it helps a lot. I got lucky as they took care of that part themselves. Freddy even DoWed Gandhi while they were sharing religion. That came at the best possible time, as I saw him move about a dozen random metal units into Gandhi's territory right before I attacked him. His stack never came back to defend his cities.

    Then it just comes down to building lots and lots of units. In my game I built 49 elephants and 31 pults. Maybe a bit excessive as 30 elephants were alive still at the end and almost 20 elephants didn't fight at all in the final war against Gandhi. Really should have attacked him earlier, but I was so afraid of his castles, pikes and longbows that I waited until all of my army was in position before declaring.
     
  9. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Another try

    I was so backward in techs (no precious metals!) that maybe I should not even mention what Gandhi had and I didnt. Anyway, Popped AH from a hut, blocked land for 4 cities. HA war against Roosevelt ca. 700BC, I took 2 cities out of 5 from Washington (GLH, Mids), but counter attack of spears destroyed my stack so I quit. yes, I was totally without any metal.

    I also forgot to turn barbs off (anyway, barbs in opposite to immortal are no problem). In domination I wouldnt matter, but in conquest they can be a problem later.

    I was playing with Suleiman so I can settle 2nd city quicker and block land, GGenerals are also good, but those expensive granaries are painfull. I thought about Mehmed, but that ORG trait doesnt lower city maintanace, just civic maintanace. In conquest courts are not needed, but Theocracy and maybe Police State after capturing Mids can be painful, I didnt even made a single bulb, but producing a scientist is 13 turns only with Suleiman.

    I will go again with Suleiman. What are the requirements for MC/Engineering bulbs? No fishing and no meditation is enough?

    At least I found good set of AI. Roosevelt to built wonders not units, Gandhi for religion spreading, DeGaulle to be the worst enemy of everyone. The 4th was Lincoln, but he spams cities like crazy in all my games and the last one even spammed units.
     
  10. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Hmmmm

    my current map has 296 tiles. Horses + copper, but very little food. I suppose I rolled such a small map in a wrong challange :D
     
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    You mean declare with HAs 700bc? That's quite late, I declared with elephants 1275bc. Try speeding up your attack date. Skip everything unnecessary and focus on putting together an army. 4 cities is unnecessary for HA rush, it's usually much faster with two, or sometimes even only one.
     
  12. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Isn't 220AD an amazing date? 2nd in the HoF table from what I can see, miles ahead of 3rd and beyond. No idea why you wouldn't call yourself a Deity player ;)
     
  13. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeah...great date!!!
     
  14. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Congrats enKage, I can see you finally got a game in! :goodjob:

    ... and now I realize how stupid this was. Pressed shoreline Flat worldwrap can be 350 tiles with 1/4 the maintenance. :cringe: :hammer2:
    Thank you, maybe it is quite a good date after all. :) When I learn to win in other ways than rushing the whole map with early units and crashing my economy, I'll start calling myself a deity player. ;)
     
  15. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Yes i did it! Nextr try was unsuccesful though. I destroyed roosevelt then nearly gandhi. But indiavteched cuirassiers while I was still before guilds even . But that was a solid lesson.

    Finally i rolled a great start (dry corn, banana, 2 floods and 2 gems). I did not repeat earlier mistakes like chopping stable before HA and not trading some techs i will nprmally not trade below deity.

    But from the start.

    Gandhi took my 2nd city site with dumbos so i eent toward lincoln to settle elephants on the other site. I lost by 1 turn even with imperialistic leader. I was forced to settle horses 9 tiles away.

    When i was ready to declare on lincoln, he improved iron and spammed spears so i moved to gandhi. I pillaged and attacked in the field to compensate lack of stables then took Delhi and ekephant city and razed one settled for iron. Ehen i was ready to attack holy shrined city, he teched feudalism, so tell me is it normal for AIs on deity to have longbows 850 BC ????

    Made peace, at least i had elephants. But Delhi was 1 tile city even though i built all monasteries there! The culture pressure from gandhi took all tiles but i could not liberate because i will lose dumbos.

    Traded Hbr and currency to all but france. I went for de gaulle as he was the only one with no LBs. Took 3 cities with mids and totally useless glh and made peace for metal casting. With 3 arctic cities he will never do any harm.

    At this moment i knew i won. With GE bulb of guilds even if sth went wrong i was too close to gunpowder and if elephants and maces would be stopped somehow, janniseries has no match till rifling.

    Second india war was 7 turns to vassalise. Roosevelt 10 turns
    France fonished in the meantime by coalition. 13 turns to finish lincoln because i supposed i could not simply vassalise.

    The forum was not working so i couldnt check what has a priority: conquest or domination if by vassalising the last rival domination limit is reached. I didnt want to risk domination so had to taze all his cities to the ground. I finished at 64% even gifting back cities.


    Just to mention - philo and imp was good for extremely early C5 HA and for early theology bulb. Not only i got nice techs in trade but was able to produce 11 exp mounted units (barracks stable vassalism theocracy) with police state bonus.
     
  16. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Yes i did it! Nextr try was unsuccesful though. I destroyed roosevelt then nearly gandhi. But indiavteched cuirassiers while I was still before guilds even . But that was a solid lesson.

    Finally i rolled a great start (dry corn, banana, 2 floods and 2 gems). I did not repeat earlier mistakes like chopping stable before HA and not trading some techs i will nprmally not trade below deity.

    But from the start.

    Gandhi took my 2nd city site with dumbos so i eent toward lincoln to settle elephants on the other site. I lost by 1 turn even with imperialistic leader. I was forced to settle horses 9 tiles away.

    When i was ready to declare on lincoln, he improved iron and spammed spears so i moved to gandhi. I pillaged and attacked in the field to compensate lack of stables then took Delhi and ekephant city and razed one settled for iron. Ehen i was ready to attack holy shrined city, he teched feudalism, so tell me is it normal for AIs on deity to have longbows 850 BC ????

    Made peace, at least i had elephants. But Delhi was 1 tile city even though i built all monasteries there! The culture pressure from gandhi took all tiles but i could not liberate because i will lose dumbos.

    Traded Hbr and currency to all but france. I went for de gaulle as he was the only one with no LBs. Took 3 cities with mids and totally useless glh and made peace for metal casting. With 3 arctic cities he will never do any harm.

    At this moment i knew i won. With GE bulb of guilds even if sth went wrong i was too close to gunpowder and if elephants and maces would be stopped somehow, janniseries has no match till rifling.

    Second india war was 7 turns to vassalise. Roosevelt 10 turns
    France fonished in the meantime by coalition. 13 turns to finish lincoln because i supposed i could not simply vassalise.

    The forum was not working so i couldnt check what has a priority: conquest or domination if by vassalising the last rival domination limit is reached. I didnt want to risk domination so had to taze all his cities to the ground. I finished at 64% even gifting back cities.


    Just to mention - philo and imp was good for extremely early C5 HA and for early theology bulb. Not only i got nice techs in trade but was able to produce 11 exp mounted units (barracks stable vassalism theocracy) with police state bonus.
     
  17. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    It's quite RNG dependent when they get longbows, but I don't think 850BC is extremely rare. Gandhi is quite a teching beast though, if he doesn't get into trouble, which is why I prefer Asoka in conquest games. In this challenge Gandhi was in my game and he was the first one to longbows, the other AI I took out before they got to feud. I think I was done with the second last, Asoka, about 50BC and he didn't have longbows yet at that time. Though he had been at war with De Gaulle large parts of the game, which probably slowed him down.

    The above quote is the main reason why I decided to go with Mehmed. Getting that worker and granary earlier might only speed up your attack date with a couple of turns, but a couple of turns is often exactly what you need to take out the AI before he's got that crucial tech to counter your units. On lower difficulties it doesn't matter as much, but in a game like this on deity, you know you will have to fight longbows at some point. Being able to grab a few more cities before this happens might make a huge difference to your victory date. Or in the case of HAs, a couple of turns earlier might make the difference between them hooking up iron or not.

    This also affects the kind of starts I'm looking for. Lots of commerce is of course nice, but I find one gold/gems is enough for HA rushing. Rather than having 2nd, 3rd and 4th gems, I'd take a few more forests. Getting HBR a couple of turns earlier doesn't help you much if you can't produce them quickly enough. Aim to have everything prechopped and cities grown as large as possible by the time you can produce HAs, then you can get that initial army out in no time.
     
  18. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    in my expierience on lower levels, Asoka often goes straight to Feudalism, so better take Gandhi IMO
     
  19. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Monarch (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    It's a coin flip so not worth risking it!!
     
  20. Lazybones

    Lazybones Chieftain

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    I'm not a Diety player so I'm not hoping for a fast finish but a win would be nice if possible. I was thinking of trying to do this using Snaaty's guide which basically involves peacefully rexing until rifles can be drafted. I tried a couple of times and got boxed in so I'm not sure if it's even possible.

    Does a peaceful rex strategy sound viable or does the map type require early war to get enough land?

    I'm also not sure which leader I prefer yet either since cheap granaries/courthouses are nice but I might need IMP to get the land, any ideas?

    Thanks in advance.
     

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