Charlemagne/HRE Changes

[yogiebere]

HRE Changes!​

Ok this is in response to many comments lately about the implementation of Charlemagne and the subsequent split-up into France and Germany (and Italy but they're not a civ)

Also later HREs with Barbarossa and Austria, but let's focus on early stuff for now.


Option 1: Keep what we have: The single UHV dedicated to this is. The object is to essentially conquer the various cities in a loosely controlled empire not unlike Charlemagne himself.

However you start in Paris, not Aachen, the French stay around and keep the Spanish, Italian cities (if they don't collapse), which can lead to some weird dynamics.

As pointed out in another thread, the current Burgundy system in place doesn't work. Burgundy is weak, ahistorical, a really unfun civ to play, and doesn't want to die off like it should.

I'm a history buff, but I admit I am not well read in the intricate history of Burgundy. That said, it seems their paths are very intwined with France. Also it seems Burgundy collapsed several times throughout the course of its history, then most notable regaining prominence during the hundred years war then finally subjecting to the French officially.

Germany is also kind of a weird civ because it combines many kingdoms of Germany and fails to address the competely decentralized Germany in which protestantism was founded (I don't think we need a collapsed Germany so we could say that is one "possible" scenario of our mod). Austria also doesn't do s**t.


*Option 2*

Incorporate Charlemagne in the Mod as a separate entity from France. The only problem is they would be a very brief civ, only about 80 turns, which doesn't seem like much at all. Their only purpose would be to essentially settle and expand.

*My proposal for this option would be to make them independents. Something like the mod starts with Aachen in 500 as indy, then spreads a city every 10 or so turns (a city pops up not settlers) while the pope is spamming catholic missionaries everywhere. Just before 843, unified indy (not split up like indys are in collapsing empires) has Aachen, Paris, Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles, Tours, Strasbourg, Milano, Barcelona, and Augsburg.

I know scripting is awful, but as France you are rather "scripted" into doing a very specific set of actions to complete the UHV1.

France: would spawn in 843 (think civ3 europe mod, not RFC) with Paris, Tours, Bordeaux, armed with several settlers to make Caen and Nantes, and a decent amount of units, workers, and tech. Also buffing up French starting buildings and those civ variables like starting pop, tech rate, that stuff.
Hopefully France should be diverting lots of attention to war with England (who should be a lot more aggressive in France). After a couple hundred of years, France would divert its efforts to capture Strasbourg, Aachen (which it may or may not have already), Dijon, Lyon, and Marseilles, as the period of Burgundy sunsets.

Germany: they could spawn at the same time (or 5 turns later if you want to space them out, I recall there was a good reason for spacing out civ starting times), Build Hamburg, flip Augsburg, expanding north and east with several settlers, much like they play right now.
I'm thinking we should change Germany's UHVs around to make them much more military and barbarossa like. The reformation and army size ones can stay. But I think the territory UHV should be expanded to try to take Basle, Burgundy (yes it's historic), Milano, Tyrol, and into austria, czech like this picture:
LINK
Later on maybe they collapse under Austria's powerful new empire when they spawn.
*Realistically the mod would progress something like: Germany is much more aggressive in alps and Salzburg/Prague and then its power gets checked by France, Genoa and Venezia in Italy, and Austria (and then if they actually do collapse, the French and Austrians will battle over Germany, it's almost like its the 30 years war hohoho)

*Note: Burgundy and Germany can fight over the Basle/Switzerland area.

Burgundy: Not sure what you think about the start time, I'm thinking 843 for balancing (otherwise France takes Lyon, Marseilles which leads to war when Burgundy comes diverting focus away from hundred years war). Burgundy builds Dijon, flips Lyon and Strabourg. They will try to quickly conuqer Aachen and Marseilles, as I think giving them those two on the start would just be too much power, especially as France and Germany only get a couple.
IMPORTANT: Burgundy would seemingly start out strong, but would have handicaps against them in unit production, wonder production, starting buildings, and tech especially (say a 140% cost) to deter their long term growth.
In the long run, France should take over Burgundy.

Charlemagne's Empire: Almost completely collapses within 15 turns after the 843 deadline, everything except Barcelona is now French German or Burgundian

This seems like a pretty good system to me. The HRE would move form indy Dark Ages Charlemagne to Medieval Germany to Renaissance Austria. I don't think "titles" are necessary, not really the mods style, but I don't mind either way.


Option 3: Huge change, not sure bout this.

We could make it like the europe scenario in civ3 (again not RFC). What I mean is the mod starts in 843. Hold on for a sec there before you run screaming into the other room. Yes it would totally F up all the timings, but this is just one option. What was great about the civ3 thing was that it competely bypassed the Charlemagne situation. Currently, until 843 it's pretty much only the French and Byzantines (later Arabs, Cordobans, but they aren't huge until after 834).

If you don't want the scripted Charlemagne and want the whole France/Burgundy/Germany/Austria/HRE system to be fixed, (which needs a serious change to the system we have currently), this is another option.


*Alright please post comments, and not some random post like "I don't really like it" or "Cool". Let's leave this thread for serious discussion which I would love to see. If you have a great idea please introduce it. Want to work "within" the system? By all means let's. I'm sure this change would be massive works for the programmers which I wouldn't want to impose if there's a possible working change for the current system.

 

[ezzlar]

I dont know the exact dates but how about a Byzantium situation where the original empire is pre-placed and then bits of the empire flipping to new civs?

 

[civ_king]

I'd like to point out that that map is from ~1600

I'll go with #2, spawning Indy cities is good

 

[Veshta]

France is stupidly strong. All the provinces they "need" are solid which translates into monster stability .. easy to have 40+ when castles get erected, don't think any other nation has as easy a time as they do which I presume is why the AI is always in the top 2.
They also have an enormous amount of faithpoints thanks to being wonder happy and generally diligent with improving cities so until the Mediterranean civs get their purses out all Crusades are French.
Burgundy gets the entire swath of space from Marseilles to Amsterdam more often than not in my games. The few times they fail horribly it is due to lucky barbarians mostly.

After having played the Polish I am no longer too concerned about historical accuracy and a lot more with gameplay/fun to be honest. On that note, any change that makes for a fun experience (current French is pretty fun) is OK in my book .. if scripting is used so be it

@Ezzlar: That solution would be quite handy, but you have to account for the distance and stability which is what 'balances' the Byzantium spawn, they are bleeding cash and shedding cities for quite a while as a result.

 

[ezzlar]

An "old" French emipre suffering similiar production penalties like the Byzantines should make them more balanced. A 500AD start is somewhat OP.

 

[Daffy]

France is stupidly strong. All the provinces they "need" are solid which translates into monster stability .. easy to have 40+ when castles get erected, don't think any other nation has as easy a time as they do which I presume is why the AI is always in the top 2.

I can't second that, France is far from being OP in my games(no interference from me, if I had crushed them with say Germany that wouldn't be an accurate image)
but anyway they're still far from the 'top 2'

France 12. in score with me as Genoa



France 7. in score with me as Portugal



France 6. in score with me as the Netherlands (still missing civs i.e. Ottomans, Arabia)

I'd like to point out that that map is from ~1600

I'll go with #2, spawning Indy cities is good

referring to the thumbnail in the original posting?

http://www.deutschland-im-mittelalter.de/bilder/landkarten/landkarte-mitteleuropa-980.jpg

supposedly 980ad, looks pretty much the same to me

the site has a time line with different maps, in case anyone is interested
http://www.deutschland-im-mittelalter.de/landkarten.php

 

[yogiebere]

ok heres a better picture: of frederick barbarossa's empire.

France in my experience hasn't been OP but hasn't really had the guts to take out Burgundy like they should. Burgundy usually remains as weak as a Genoa, but yes sometimes it will takes low country cities and be a lot more formidable (slightly historically but they never end up dying off...)

Any other ideas or thoughts?

 

[3Miro]

843 start of the game is out of the question. Even if it didn't involve a lot of code and balance, you are still ignoring the Byzantines, Bulgaria, Arabia and partially Venice. You are also almost completely ignoring Charlemagne's Empire by taking it out of the game.

As you said, you cannot have a civilization playable for only 80 turns.

An independent civ is also not a very good option as it would be very artificial. The AI just doesn't expand that much that fast.

The biggest issue with the current system are the Spanish cities and Burgundy. We can make the Spanish cities more likely to declare independence, hence France would probably lose those. We can also give French AI some more units so that they can conquer more of the Indies. Burgundy is a harder question, if there is nothing to keep France in check, they will get too powerful (think of another Germany). Burgundy also has a special respawn during the 100 year war. We can add some penalties for Burgundy so that they are likely to collapse early and then respawn again.

 

[yogiebere]

I see your point that it would be artificial, but they currently don't do charlemagne's empire.. so it may be necessary if you want that

I don't even mean the indys would settle, they would just straight up get a city. And what's wrong with that? I just think of Charlemagne as a shortterm territorial Pope in that its non playable and easily forgotten later on.

I like that burgundy respawn idea. I don't think France would become too overpowered especially if it was like a Spain - constantly fighting from 1000-1400 until it carved out an empire for itself. Plus if it spawns in 843, it wouldnt have those 80 some odd turns to become an early powerhouse.

I think we need to reorganize the french and german UHVs to incorporate more of the HRE. You have to admit that things are not very historic at all (and that could be changed while making it even more balanced).

I wasn't considering the third option dont worry.

 

[3Miro]

I think we need to reorganize the french and german UHVs to incorporate more of the HRE. You have to admit that things are not very historic at all (and that could be changed while making it even more balanced).

I wasn't considering the third option dont worry.

Overall, I like the French UHV, however, the German ones are very bad. I think we should redo all of the German UHV. I just haven't had the time to do the research.

 

[yogiebere]

Ok what do you think of this 3Miro

Without creating a new civ or changing start times or any of that:

Make Burgundy more aggressive with France (and vice versa) but make Burgundy easy to collapse (about what venezia is now hehe) and then a high probability of respawning during the 100 years war.

With a strong France and nerfing the stability with France UHV, France's "OP" would be toned down. Though in my experience they weren't any stronger than Spain, Germany, or England.

I think Germany needs to be strong. Right now it often doesn't get Lubice and doesn't try to get baltic cities. I think Germany needs to be more military focused - taking Milano (through Basle area), fighting around with Poland (who also could use some buffs), Burgundy, and France.

Once Austria spawns it would need to be stronger, more aggressive with the augsburg area, and would try to reunite the HRE in german speaking lands, like in history (and likely in the mod would be met with strong resistence from Germany, but for the human they'd be able to do it)

Proposed German UHVs

1. Unify the HRE: Control Franconia, Saxony, Brandenburg, Bavaria, Swabia, Lorraine, Bohemia, Salzburg, Tyrol,
and conquer (capture all cities in that province) or vassalize one of: Burgundy (Burgundy), Genoa (Lombardy), or Venezia (Verona)
They could be buffed early on with more military units. Stability wise they should be great. Only Salzburg and one of the 3 would be OKs.
A much stronger Austria would keep Germany in check (as well as a strong France, Poland, Norse, respawning Burgundy, Genoa, Venezia on all sides.)

2. Found protestantism by 1521. About when Martin Luther did his thing. Would leave enough time for a prepared Spain to conquer 3 protestant cities.

3. This is where it gets tough. Both the 3 vassals and the mercenary are kind of crap in my opinion. Conquer Jerusalem? (like Frederick). Found a corporation? (Augsburg families for example). Something else perhaps?

 

[3Miro]

1. Unify the HRE: Control Franconia, Saxony, Brandenburg, Bavaria, Swabia, Lorraine, Bohemia, Salzburg, Tyrol,
and conquer (capture all cities in that province) or vassalize one of: Burgundy (Burgundy), Genoa (Lombardy), or Venezia (Verona)
They could be buffed early on with more military units. Stability wise they should be great. Only Salzburg and one of the 3 would be OKs.
A much stronger Austria would keep Germany in check (as well as a strong France, Poland, Norse, respawning Burgundy, Genoa, Venezia on all sides.)

2. Found protestantism by 1521. About when Martin Luther did his thing. Would leave enough time for a prepared Spain to conquer 3 protestant cities.

3. This is where it gets tough. Both the 3 vassals and the mercenary are kind of crap in my opinion. Conquer Jerusalem? (like Frederick). Found a corporation? (Augsburg families for example). Something else perhaps?

1. OK, get a lot of territory, makes sense.

2. Remove the year, just found Protestantism whenever. Also, this has nothing to do with Spain, the AI doesn't know about UHV and doesn't try to achieve them. If you see an AI getting a UHV, this is by accident. At any rate, found Protestantism is a nice UHV.

3. This one should be ahistoric. Where did Germany fail? Call them Germany or the HRE or whatever, the question is what could they have done to reverse the tide of history (like Byzantines not losing Constantinople or the Venetians getting Colonies or the English winning the 100 year war).

 

[yogiebere]

I'm still thinking crusades, because Frederick Barbarossa came so close but then drowned near constantinople. If you want something harder maybe:

Control or vassalize 3(or 4) of these: Poland(Greater Poland), Norse (Denmark), Venezia (Verona), Genoa (Lombardy), Burgundy (Burgundy), Dutch? by some date possibly.

Germans will be kept in check by a much stronger Austria bent on their conquest.

 

[Panopticon]

3. This one should be ahistoric. Where did Germany fail? Call them Germany or the HRE or whatever, the question is what could they have done to reverse the tide of history (like Byzantines not losing Constantinople or the Venetians getting Colonies or the English winning the 100 year war).

The obvious HRE/German failures in history were the failure to unite and the passage of imperial superiority to Austria.

 

[azander12]

I'm still thinking crusades, because Frederick Barbarossa came so close but then drowned near constantinople. If you want something harder maybe:

Control or vassalize 3(or 4) of these: Poland(Greater Poland), Norse (Denmark), Venezia (Verona), Genoa (Lombardy), Burgundy (Burgundy), Dutch? by some date possibly.

Germans will be kept in check by a much stronger Austria bent on their conquest.

How about just "Capture Vienna"? It would be ahistorical, as the Hapsburgs failed to unify the HRE, but the Protestant princes failed massively against the Hapsburgs as well.

 

[3Miro]

How about just "Capture Vienna"? It would be ahistorical, as the Hapsburgs failed to unify the HRE, but the Protestant princes failed massively against the Hapsburgs as well.

UHV 1: Get Germany and Northern Italy in year ??
UHV 2: Get Protestantism.
UHV 3: Control Germany, Northern Italy AND Austria in year ??

I guess the biggest question here is about Germany going after Venice and Genoa. If they have northern Italy, then they will have to conquer those. Otherwise we can leave the two provinces for Genoa and Venice and get only the rest of Northern Italy.

 

[yogiebere]

UHV 1: Get Germany and Northern Italy in year ??
UHV 2: Get Protestantism.
UHV 3: Control Germany, Northern Italy AND Austria in year ??

I guess the biggest question here is about Germany going after Venice and Genoa. If they have northern Italy, then they will have to conquer those. Otherwise we can leave the two provinces for Genoa and Venice and get only the rest of Northern Italy.

well verona and lombardy are pretty much the only ones.

I'm thinking we should just have 1 Territory one. Germany isn't a hugely territory focused country as opposed to say Moscow, Ottoman, or Arabia.

Also I was hoping to include the HRE with Austria as well (add Silesia at the very least to their territory requirements)

Ok here's the big issues. The HRE was founded before 1000 and continued in pretty much the same form until 16th century, when it truly started to collapse (at least into many separate princedoms and all that). When Austria took over the HRE, it wasn't like some big war it was pretty much just a transfer of power (dont quote me on that).

Some perhaps we can have largely conflicting goals of Austria and Germany in terms of the HRE.

My proposed UHVs

German 1 (Barbarossa's Vision) Control Swabia, Franconia, Saxony, Bavaria, Lorraine, Brandenburg, by 1282 (Austria Spawn date, though it probably should be 1279 because it officially started in 1278

German 3 (Holy Roman Empire) Control All the above and Austria, Tyrol, Verona, Lombardy, Bohemia, Salzburg, and have the highest faith points of any Catholic Nation (which probably should be a thing anyway; highest faith point catholic gets HRE title or something like that) by 1519 (When Charles V took over as HRE).

Which should directly conflict with Austria's (Austria needs to be buffed a lot imo)

Austria UHV #1: Control Hungary, Upper Hungary, Austria, Salzburg, Transylvania, Bohemia, Moravia, Pannonia, Bavaria, Verona, Tyrol, Carinthia (its even historical), Croatia, Slavonia, and Bosnia - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Growth_of_Habsburg_territories.jpg

Austria again needs to be buffed and their stretch of stable provinces widened:
Upper Hungary from OK to Solid (Hell it starts 1 tile east of Vienna!), Pannonia to Solid(starts 1 tile SE from Vienna), Bosnia from Unstable to OK, Hungary to Solid?

 

[civ_king]

Don't make them solid, make them stable because solid is the same as stable except you get penalties if the enemy is in it

 

[yogiebere]

True, isn't there only "Solid", "Ok", and "Unstable"? like whats an example of Stable?

 

[civ_king]

True, isn't there only "Solid", "Ok", and "Unstable"? like whats an example of Stable?

I was thinking of this

Stable and Solid give the exact same stability benefit/penalty for your cities. The only question is the foreign cities.Solid Flanders penalizes the Dutch if they don't have all cities in it.