Charlemagne/HRE Changes

[3Miro]

I was thinking of this

The code has far more nuances than this. There is Unstable, OK, Natural, Core, Potential to Natural and Potential to Core.

Potentials become Natural or Core if you conquer them (not before).

Core and Natural differ only in penalty for losing cities in those.

The idea is that say Arabia starts with only couple of Provinces. They will get no penalty for Byzantium having Alexandria, however, if Arabia gets Alexandria, they will get Egypt. If later they lose Alexandria, they will suffer a large penalty.

OK is "outer", small penalty for a city in there, which can be more than offset by buildings (Manors etc).

Unstable is Unstable, large penalty, which can also be offset by Imperialism and really a lot of buildings (also Economy, religion, UP, Civics ...)

 

[yogiebere]

Oh ok that's cool, I like that system. Really necessary for a large civ like Ottomans.

Would you guys consider bumping back the obsoletion of manor houses? Cus It's hard for civs between that divine right and public works grouping (maybe put the obsoletion in divine right or a bit later to allow for people to build town watches)

 

[Wessel V1]

The bonus for manor houses still applies so it doesn't matter much, although you want to reach Public Works as soon as possible (health, superwonder, stability, it's my favourite tech). Try to wait with Divine Right until Public Works is at a reasonable price and if you want to conquer a large territory, do it before Divine Right. Don't wait to long though, you don't want to miss that wonderful no anarchy wonder.

 

[yogiebere]

Yeah so if I bump back DR until I get tons of manor houses that works. But what about the ottomans, swedes, or russians? They get kind of shancked in that regard (DR is necessary for stability but at the same time you need to not have it to get manor hosues)

 

[simonsays408]

So it seems that option two is the only real option.

Problem with Aachen is, although it was Charlemagne's capital, that's all it every really was, and to have it be the primary city in the low countries until someone founds Amsterdam is worse than not having it at all. Burgundy should start with Dijon and Antwerp/Brussels no earlier than 843 and flip Strasbourg. The built in collapse/re-spawn idea is good, and giving Burgundy Antwerp/Brussels rather than Lyon would probably cause it to collapse for good once the Netherlands spawn.

Speaking of the low countries, how is it that Groningen was deemed important enough to get spawned on its own but Brussels wasn't? Brussels was always an important economic center (such as they were in the period) and certainly more influential than Groningen. And that square should be Emden rather than Groningen anyway, which also fits in historically with the inevitable conflict between the Netherlands and Germany over that city.

As for Germany, UHV #1 could be based on the electoral principalities, as much as it can be, which would mean the oversized Saxony (I'll return to that later), Brandenburg, and Bohemia. Yes, that's only three, and that's where Saxony comes in. It's way too big and inaccurate besides. It can easily be split into Westphalia (Cologne), Hanover (Hanover/Hamburg) and Saxony (Leipzig), with other pieces going to Pomerania (Luebeck) and the other existing provinces. Yes, the Duchy of Saxony was that big in the earlier time periods that the mod covers, but for the later parts its too big and ignores the subsequent subdivisions of the province (pesky salic patrimony). Bavaria could also be added to UHV #1 with the new Westphalia, so that's five provinces (Brandenburg, Bavaria, Bohemia, Westphalia and Saxony) for UHV #1 plus the capital in Franconia which seems fair for the early 13th century.

Founding corporations for a German UHV is a good idea as well, but the Hanseatic league and the Teutonic knights should be part of it too. Maybe the goal could be staggered? Something like, found the Teutonic Knights by 1000, the Hanseatic league by 1200 and the Augsburg bankers by 1400, whatever works. Also, I preferred to switch Augsburg for Munich via the WorldBuilder (I just deleted Augsburg and created Munich with all the same stats to keep things balanced) but lost Munich with Austria's spawn, which shouldn't happen. Bavaria's capital is Munich and though Bavaria occasionally allied with Austria, it was never a Hapsburg territory and shouldn't be part of their spawn zone. I'm also not entirely sure why Augsburg is there from the very beginning, Munich would be a better choice though it might be best to move it a little bit further north or west to distance it from Austria.

Is there anyway to compel the AI to found cities in certain plots? I almost never see Madrid/Warsaw/St. Petersburg unless I found them myself. More of an aesthetic/accuracy thing, but still.

 

[Daffy]

So it seems that option two is the only real option.

Problem with Aachen is, although it was Charlemagne's capital, that's all it every really was, and to have it be the primary city in the low countries until someone founds Amsterdam is worse than not having it at all. Burgundy should start with Dijon and Antwerp/Brussels no earlier than 843 and flip Strasbourg. The built in collapse/re-spawn idea is good, and giving Burgundy Antwerp/Brussels rather than Lyon would probably cause it to collapse for good once the Netherlands spawn.

Speaking of the low countries, how is it that Groningen was deemed important enough to get spawned on its own but Brussels wasn't? Brussels was always an important economic center (such as they were in the period) and certainly more influential than Groningen. And that square should be Emden rather than Groningen anyway, which also fits in historically with the inevitable conflict between the Netherlands and Germany over that city.

As for Germany, UHV #1 could be based on the electoral principalities, as much as it can be, which would mean the oversized Saxony (I'll return to that later), Brandenburg, and Bohemia. Yes, that's only three, and that's where Saxony comes in. It's way too big and inaccurate besides. It can easily be split into Westphalia (Cologne), Hanover (Hanover/Hamburg) and Saxony (Leipzig), with other pieces going to Pomerania (Luebeck) and the other existing provinces. Yes, the Duchy of Saxony was that big in the earlier time periods that the mod covers, but for the later parts its too big and ignores the subsequent subdivisions of the province (pesky salic patrimony). Bavaria could also be added to UHV #1 with the new Westphalia, so that's five provinces (Brandenburg, Bavaria, Bohemia, Westphalia and Saxony) for UHV #1 plus the capital in Franconia which seems fair for the early 13th century.

Founding corporations for a German UHV is a good idea as well, but the Hanseatic league and the Teutonic knights should be part of it too. Maybe the goal could be staggered? Something like, found the Teutonic Knights by 1000, the Hanseatic league by 1200 and the Augsburg bankers by 1400, whatever works. Also, I preferred to switch Augsburg for Munich via the WorldBuilder (I just deleted Augsburg and created Munich with all the same stats to keep things balanced) but lost Munich with Austria's spawn, which shouldn't happen. Bavaria's capital is Munich and though Bavaria occasionally allied with Austria, it was never a Hapsburg territory and shouldn't be part of their spawn zone. I'm also not entirely sure why Augsburg is there from the very beginning, Munich would be a better choice though it might be best to move it a little bit further north or west to distance it from Austria.

Is there anyway to compel the AI to found cities in certain plots? I almost never see Madrid/Warsaw/St. Petersburg unless I found them myself. More of an aesthetic/accuracy thing, but still.

afaik there is work being done on the map
I don't know how extensive however and/or if provinces will be changed, I had already mentioned that Saxony is a bit large.
But there are a few things that you mentioned which i don't agree with.

1. Aachen: certainly was allot more than just simply a 'Capitol' for Charlemagne and unimportant before and after. Besides being settled since the stone-age and being an important Roman border town (imo Germania was one of the main threats to Rome, they certainly didn't build the Limes just for fun), from 936 - 1521 a total of 31 German Kings were crowned there, only after the Netherlands 'spawned' did this move to Frankfurt.

2. Augsburg: formerly Augusta Vindelicorum founded in 15 BC and is considered to be one of the oldest cities in Germany.

3. Hannover imo only really came up later under Prussia (before the 13th century you can pretty much ignore the area) I would simply call the province 'Lower Saxony' or in addition the coastal areas and possibly the coastal area of Schleswig-Holstein into 'Frisia' (Friesland)

4. Lübeck definitely shouldn't be in Pommern but in Mecklenburg if not in Saxony, Pommern starts further east. Map: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Karte-Mecklenburg.png&filetimestamp=20061214080828

5. I'b deem Antwerpen to have a higher 'right' to be preplaced than Brüssel simply due to location (I think Brüssel and Antwerpen exclude each other on the map)
But I also tend to agree about Groningen, It was placed a while back when the Netherlands still had large issues. But the area needs some counterbalancing to Germany (Hamburg's culture can push almost all the way to Amsterdam, Münster(if founded) crushes the Netherlands)

And come to think of it.. whales near Groningen? I've wondered if there might have been whales in the past that are now extinct.
Elsewise I've only heard of occasional whales getting lost and stranding in the area
or..
look more like Dolphins to me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbour_porpoise

But once the revisions to the map are done there will be changes to the city names.
Imo the location for Augsburg is too far east, I would consider that location to be Munich.
And normally Augsburg/Munich doesn't flip to Austria, only Salzburg and Prag.(not sure what you did with the worldbuilder though)




btw @ Yogibere I'd pretty much vote for your 3rd option as being the best solution, but like you also noticed it's also probably the worst one at the same time due to the amount of work involved.
But maybe one could leave the whole start date at 500 ad, just have 3 civs spawn at the same time after Charlemagnes death.
With the addition of 'Burgundy' collapsing early (being crushed by germany/france) and respawning later.
I don't see a problem with having a few civs that play 'alone' for a while (i.e. China in RFC 3000BC) you only need something to do if thats the case barbs/build stuff etc.

Not really sure on what to base this but from what I think to remember from history class was that there has been quite a bit of rivalry between germany and france ever since charlemagne. One thing being that pretty much every german king kinda got wet dreams about being able to recreate charlemagnes empire which usually meant that france had to go. Finally achieved in 1870ish under Prussia. But the french didn't quite have the same ambitions.

The whole point being an idea for UHV's
Germany (more or less)tried for about 1000 years to recreate charlemagnes empire. How about having Germany have to conquer france/italy etc.? That way the historical alliances between england and germany would be strengthened (mutual enemy)
The whole expansion could lead to massive german stability problems, which is also a bonus(preventing the historical splittering of the empire as a further challenge)

The french on the other side (not really sure what their UHV's currently are) I don't really know much about them to be honest
But they give the impression that their priorities were on culture and wealth. I'm thinking Notre Dame, Versailles, Louis XIV, huge catholic influence/papal influence faith points?/build x catholic cathedrals?(requiring large expansion, either founding cities densely or conquest of italy and more, say 5 Cathedrals which would require 20 cities.. allot imo)
The expansion goal could also lead them into conflict with germany over 'former' territory.

 

[srpt]

this is a quite esoteric point to bring up but it bears directly on the idea of a post-Charlemagne start. there is a thesis originally promoted by a Belgian historian named Henri Pirenne in a 1937 essay called "Mohammed and Charlemagne", which suggests that the true genesis of "europe" as a geographic/historic/cultural idea did not come about and theoretically would not have come about until the islamic conquests had definitively disrupted the commercial and cultural connections which bound the mediterranean world together. so if you did want to start the mod at the death of Charlemagne you would have solid, if somewhat controversial, historical reasoning behind you.

also, in starting in 500 you're glossing over 300 years of visigoths, ostrogoths, vandals, lombards, alans, gepids, etc in almost constant fluid motion, really a distinct period, still in the pre-history of europe you might say.

but its an awesome mod with any start date. really really enjoying it and very grateful for all the work and dedication.

 

[yogiebere]

Yeah it looks like we're going to have to settle with our current system but modified. Options 2 and 3 are just too much work for the programmers.

I do support a reorganization of saxony.

So it seems that our new German UHVs are:

1. Conquer basic german provinces with good stability (+5 or better?)
2. Found Protestantism
3. Conquer all the provinces stated early for the HRE (Italy Austria, stuff like that) and have highest catholic faith points (sometime around 1500 perhaps)

About the Augsburg/Munchen: Could there be a system in place where you can destroy a city you get on spawn and then get an extra settler? Cus I hate having just terrible city placements that you can't do anything about - Turkey in particular bugs me about this.

 

[civ_king]

Could we merge some Polish provinces?

 

[FakeShady]

Yeah it looks like we're going to have to settle with our current system but modified. Options 2 and 3 are just too much work for the programmers.

I do support a reorganization of saxony.

So it seems that our new German UHVs are:

1. Conquer basic german provinces with good stability (+5 or better?)
2. Found Protestantism
3. Conquer all the provinces stated early for the HRE (Italy Austria, stuff like that) and have highest catholic faith points (sometime around 1500 perhaps)

About the Augsburg/Munchen: Could there be a system in place where you can destroy a city you get on spawn and then get an extra settler? Cus I hate having just terrible city placements that you can't do anything about - Turkey in particular bugs me about this.

So Germany is to found Protestantism AND have the most Catholic faith points?

 

[yogiebere]

exactly. you're trying to fulfill the HRE and strong catholic nation box but then also have the reformation. Early I suggested 1519 as the checkpoint which historically makes sense, but if this is conflicting with getting protestant in time, then it could be switched to just higher faith points of any nation.

 

[Daffy]

edit: misunderstood

 

[FakeShady]

ok understand. But UHV 1 looks a bit easy. Maybe tougher independants?

 

[ezzlar]

Forcing HRE into the mod might not be worth the effort. I am not missing it. Better to change the UHVs to match the HRE concept.

 

[Barratt_87]

I havent tried this since the new province system came in but munich was built between the mountains in what is now the most north western plot of salburg.. If bavaria is out of the austrian flip zone then munich (which was not built untill the 1300s anyway) should be fine one tile north on the edge of bavaria.. Also, the HRE didnt expand much east of the elbe untill the same period so any territorial UHVs should take this into account.. And lastly, im unhappy with some of the provinces in western europe.. Firstly, normandy should NOT include calais.. It should either be its own province called Nord-Pas-de-Calais (dont know if this is too modern of a name.) Normandy should stop at the seine. Also, lorriane is way too big.. It should end just south of luxembourg and should include alsace since they were always a hot spot between germany, france and burgundy. This province should therefore be at least ok stability for these 3 civs. As for the rest of what is now lorraine should just be the rheinland or if anyone has any more medieval suggestion that would work to.

My last point is that there should be one more indy city in that region which should be the focus point of strife between germany, france and burgundy.. That city, Verdun. It was the treaty of verdun that split charlemanges empire, it was an important roman town and eventually became one of the most fortified cities in europe. With verdun in french or burgundian hands and metz (2 tiles east exactly beside the town) in german hands that could set up for one of the most disputed regions in western europe to be a war zone.

Also, with the map revisions in work is there any plans to do anything to eastern france and the low countriesÉ I feel that one city in belgium is not enough... If it can be done i would like enough space to build antwerp, brussel and ypres.. If this can be done there should be more room in holland too.. my main concern here is enough room to build arnhem AND amsterdam while still being able to build maastricht as germany (should flip on netherlands spawn) I am canadian so i dont know the regions in question as well as others so if i am wrong on anything, just tell me.

 

[yogiebere]

so any final decisions on what's going to happen for the HRE

 

[HockeySam18]

You should also add found Teutonic Knights as part of the second UHV. Seeing as the third German UHV should be ahistoric, it should be to conquer Jerusalem (Barbarossa), Poland (Battle of Tannenberg/Grunwald 1410AD), and conquer Austria. I forget what German UP is but it should be changed to no instability for conquering cities outside of stable area and free teutonic knight unit for each spread of that corp.

I also think that Cordoba should be redone so that they spawn a few turns after the Arabs with more starting units so that they conquer the indies in spain and france to create battle of Tours situation. That has the convenient byproduct of making the French fight someone to get their first UHV. The cities directly south of the Pyrenees should flip to Spain on spawn to solve that problem.

I also find the Arabs pitifully unable to defend vs. crusades and expand into Turkey shortly after spawn like in real life. They need a buff.

Corps, if not founded by their historic date, should be scripted to be founded in their historic city on that date.

Templars- Jerusalem, 1119AD
Hospitallers/Knights of St. John- Jerusalem, 1023AD, move to Rhodes in 1309AD, Malta in 1530AD.
Teutonic Knights- Tyre, 1192AD, move to Marienburg/Malbork in 1309AD.
Hanseatic- Lubeck, 1159AD
Bank of St. George- Genoa, 1407AD
Medicis- Florence, 1397AD,
Augsburg/Fugger Banks- Augsburg, 1536AD.

Oh and please add Marienburg/Malbork as an indie in Prussia, it was such an important city during the middle ages as the hq of the teutonics, and didn't become Danzig until hundreds of years later.

 

[yogiebere]

Thanks for the good ideas. Unfortunately almost all of your suggestions won't work due to how the mod is set up.

Definitely: Jerusalem was thought of for Germany but then it conflicted with Burgundy's and the conquer Austria thing prevailed (what will now be the UHV 3: unify the HRE). Poland is too far for them to stretch, maybe an Austrian thing if they were buffed a lot.

We can't script corporations. Think of corporations in bts, they aren't even real corps and don't have set spawn dates or locations. The whole point is that they are flexible leading to different outcomes in the mods. We try to avoid scripting, that way things aren't so predictable (but not consistently imbalanced)

Cordoba would be cool, but unfortunately with how civ works, military units can only move so quickly and the quick spread and retreat of muslims into france can't be replicated in the game.

Yeah the Danzig sounds good as an indy. Perhaps Poland will take them (or Germany if they actually feel like doing something in new versions)

 

[Olaf_The_Great]

How about do something like what SoI does with the Egyptians. The Frankish Empire comes before France and Germany, and if it's unstable between dates x and y the French and Germans spawn. Thus Charlemagne's goals can last until any date.

 

[Issos]

Still lurking here, sadly i don't have time even to play Civ lately :/

I just have to add:

Oh and please add Marienburg/Malbork as an indie in Prussia, it was such an important city during the middle ages as the hq of the teutonics, and didn't become Danzig until hundreds of years later.

Malbork =/= Danzig . Malbork was a capital castle and a town founded by Teuteonic Knights once they settled eastern prussia. Danzig is few centuries older and is placed few hundrets kilometres away, by the sea.

Thumbs up for Danzig indie!

Also... IMO HRE should end it's UHV's until XV century, and then spawn of protestant Brandenburg/Prussia as new civ, and growth Austria, should tear it into pieces... Prussian expansion on pomerania, prussia (nomen omen), Lithuania and Livonia is something i missed in game.