Charles V

[Huayna Capac357]

In all of OTWH's opinion, which country does Charles V represent the best? Belgium? Spain? Germany? Austria? Something Else? Please explain, I am confused.

 

[North King]

Er... They're not really "civilizations". As to what country he best represents, probably the Netherlands (Belgium at that time being part of the Netherlands). After all, that's the culture he himself chose to live in most often.

 

[Dachs]

OTWH is not the correct term at all. Also I assume you meant Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and not this dude.

IMHO Karl V is really more of a guy who transcended the Spain/Burgundy/Austria components of his empire and was best described as a Habsburg, but I'd probably defer to Arwon or NK or somebody else here.

 

[holy king]

austria, that's what they told me in school after all.

 

[Dachs]

austria, that's what they told me in school after all.

They say in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia that Alexander the Great was a Slav, too.

 

[Agarwaen]

When he divided his heritage his son got Spain, so maybe he thought that those were the most important part of the Empire?

 

[philippe]

You can't really say that he belonged to one of these "nations". I'd say Belgium justbecuase of the amount of time spend here and becuase I am one, so neglect my vote.

 

[sydhe]

When he divided his heritage his son got Spain, so maybe he thought that those were the most important part of the Empire?

He'd delegated the defense and administration of Austria to his brother Ferdinand, who did such a good job he got to keep it when Charles abdicated. Philip got the Netherlands and Naples, too. (Actually he got Naples a couple of years early.)

 

[Arwon]

I've always known him as Carlos I, so my vote goes with Spain though obviously modern countries didn't exist then. The model of statehood was based on personal patrimony, not on territorial or cultural or linguistic homogeneity. Hell they all used Latin back then anyway.

What this meant is that all the lands pertained, through their different constitutional arrangements, to the same person. Despite all pertaining to the same person, this person nevertheless held each crown separately. His powers were different and particular in each realm, more restricted in some, less restricted in others - for example, the Crown of Castille was an almost completely absolutist playground for its holder, but the realms of the Crown of Aragón (Aragón, Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearics) were arranged as a medieval, pact-based monarchy built on feudal ideas of vassalage and reciprocal responsibilities, which limited the holder of the Crown's powers of taxation, gave the cities some power and autonomy, compelled the Crown to hold regular parliaments, and so forth.

Think of the Habsburg Empire as the loosest of confederations, with a single foreign policy and an army loyal to the monarch rather than any territory, but not much else tying them together. There was no legal or administrative unity.

However, although I voted for Spain:

-Spain didn't exist then.

-The crown falling to the Habsburgs only happened because of several historical accidents (several deaths and Juana's insanity) that led to the end of the House of Trastámara and the permanent personal union of the Crowns of Castille and Aragón.

-The coming of the Habsburgs was a bit of a disaster for Castille and Aragón in the long run, particularly for Castille which bore the brunt of the taxation used to pay for wars in other Habsburg European holdings, eventually squeezing the life out of Castillian cities and commerce.

 

[Tee Kay]

The Holy Roman Empire.

 

[flyingchicken]

Habsburg, if only so that I may call him a Habsburger.

 

[Masada]

The Netherlands, look at the languages he spoke, when he learn't them, why and even more amusingly where he kept going back to.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse."

 

[Sharwood]

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse."

There is nothing not awesome about that quote.

Honestly, I think I'd have to go Austrian, since he was a Hapsburg, and they, like, came from, like, there, but Arwon is far more knowledgeable about this than I, and he summed up my feelings on Chuck more eloquently than I could.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Nothing awesome, i agree. Only the opinion of the guy.

 

[aronnax]

There is nothing not awesome about that quote.

Honestly, I think I'd have to go Austrian, since he was a Hapsburg, and they, like, came from, like, there, but Arwon is far more knowledgeable about this than I, and he summed up my feelings on Chuck more eloquently than I could.

His German was limited, not high-school german standard, but not fluet either.
He also only ruled Austria for 4 years before passing it to his brother(?). I doubt he is very Austrian as are the various German towns he held.

He spent quite a lot of time in Spain, such as his last years. Spain was also the core of the Empire, along with Aragon and Castile came Naples, Sardinia, Sicily and the New World. However, he had felt like a foreign Prince in Spain.

Though Spain was the core of his kingdom, he was never totally assimilated and especially in his earlier years felt like and was viewed as a foreign prince. He could not speak Spanish very well, as it was not his primary language. Nonetheless, he spent most of his life in Spain, including his final years in a Spanish monastery.

From Wiki.
So Spain is out.

Italy? It was his battleground more than his home.

He was born and bred in Flanders, Burgundy and can say to best represent that area. However, I have yet to read or hear about a Belgian or Dutch person claiming him to be hero, of their people/nation.

I think he best represents two things
1. The Hasburgian Empire
2. The fight against Islamic Ottoman.

He was against the Greatest Ottoman Sultan of them all. Suleiman

 

[Arwon]

The problem is that by that rubric a lot of the monarchs of England haven't really been English. I think when you're talking about monarchs, what they ruled is a lot more important than what languages they spoke or where they grew up. That's kinda the point of a monarch, after all.

Also: random thing, in Spain the Habsburg house is commonly refer to as 'Las Austrias'.

 

[philippe]

uh, aronnax, in our senate, charles V is portraited as one of the great figures of our country. But so is Charlemagne. It's a bit 19th century romanticism that started trying to put a nationality on great figures , even if that nationality idn't exist at the time.

 

[aronnax]

uh, aronnax, in our senate, charles V is portraited as one of the great figures of our country. But so is Charlemagne. It's a bit 19th century romanticism that started trying to put a nationality on great figures , even if that nationality idn't exist at the time.

You see, I never knew about that...
Question though, do you think he is a Belgian Hero?

 

[aronnax]

The problem is that by that rubric a lot of the monarchs of England haven't really been English. I think when you're talking about monarchs, what they ruled is a lot more important than what languages they spoke or where they grew up. That's kinda the point of a monarch, after all.

Also: random thing, in Spain the Habsburg house is commonly refer to as 'Las Austrias'.

Well Whenever I think of Charles V. I think of his entire Empire rather than just one place, the Protestant Reformation, the Diet of Worms, freeing Francis and his Ottoman Wars.

I guess, that if you dont live in those actual places, your view is more spread out.

I mean, he was an Emperor and King that transcended nationalities and ethnicities, he was King of a dozen different kingdoms and dukedoms and duchies. Putting him in just one of them seems quite selfish to the others.
At least in my own opinion