Choosing ideology

MightySpice

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
75
Hi,

How do you chose your ideology? I want to avoid a revolutionairy wave.
Most of the times i wait untill a few Civs chose one and determine wich has the most influence over me. This does not allways work.
Any help?
 

danaphanous

religious fanatic
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Sep 6, 2013
Messages
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If you've emphasized culture by building the appropriate buildings and running all the culture specialists and converted most of them to great works for tourism usually the ideologies won't affect you that much and you can pick whatever you want. Your goal should be to be exotic on every other culture by the time you pick as this gives you one level of defense against pressure from those civs. I usually do this to get the 2 free tenets and get a headstart on the ideology tree.

If you find yourself lacking in culture and tourism most games that is when you get revolutionary wave. It means the AI's tourism is at least popular compared to your culture. It is worse if you have shared religion, trade routes, and open borders with them so careful who you give that stuff too. Go to the tourism screen and click the influence tab to see the civs that influence you most. You want to be the ideology of the civs with the best tourism that have the most influence over you so check them all and see which ones are exotic or above on you. Picking the ideology that the most influential civs have is the best way to be safe because your citizens will be happy if you pick the same ideology as civs they like. If anyone is already "popular" in your land that's even worse and they could possibly exert 2 influence over you. The game adds up all the influence minus your influence on them and if more differing ideologies are influencing you then the same ones you get unhappy.

The way it works is the game compares your total culture output of the entire game to the AI's total tourism output and vice versa. The tourism gets multipliers for open borders, shared religion, and trade routes along with some other modifiers after ideologies as well.

If someone's total tourism is 10% of another's culture they are considered "exotic". If they are 30% they are "popular" and so on. Each one is an influence level. If they are "exotic" or "popular" already in your land and you aren't to them that is when you get bad ideology pressure effects that affect your happiness. If you are both exotic to each other there is no effect. If they are exotic to you and you are unkown <10% to them then they get one influence over you which is usually around 10 unhappiness. If they are popular and you are popular there is no effect. If they are popular and you are exotic then they get one influence over you same as the previous case. If they are popular and you are unknown they get 2 levels over you and you hit civil disorder for around 20 unhappiness. Revolutionary wave is the 3rd level. The level is calculated by the sum of all people's influence over you. So if you have 3 other civs all 1 level above you you'll be in revolutionary wave. However, if you pick the majority ideology each other them defend you from other influences because you get that level over you as defense instead. It is a bit complicated to get used to at first but I hope this makes sense.

Because this is the way it works the best defense is to invest in early tourism yourself so you get to exotic on every other civ. This will make the blow from differing ideologies much, much smaller and possibly negligible. The way you keep them from getting above exotic to you and getting an influence level is by keeping your culture output high. Both are accomplished by getting and running the culture specialists as quickly as possible so this is a habit that I always do on my games. Convert all you can to great works which is usually far better then spending them before industrial as it gives tourism and culture all game afterward. Also, try to be the first to archaelogy and gather as many artifacts as possible before the AI. You want to keep your tourism around the same level as theirs at least.
 

meatpardle

Warlord
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
169
If I'm in a position to be one of the first then I'll forge ahead, no need to wait and see what others do. If you're ahead enough to be the first one taking an ideology then you should be ahead enough to dictate to others what they should be doing, not vice versa. If you're ahead in tech but your culture is so poor that you can't protect your people from other ideologies that after taken after you choose then something has gone badly wrong.

If I'm having a bad game and others have already chosen ideologies then I'll weight up the affects of taking each one - no point belligerently taking an ideology knowing you'll be pressured to change it due to unhappiness a few turns later.
 

MightySpice

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
75
Oké, thanks. Right now i am playing a game in wich i neglegted tourism totally and my culture is low (only the usual buildings). I teamed up with brazil Who seamed to have the most influence over me. Richt now i'm doing well.
The trouble is that it is very difficult to get ahead with tourism/culture on king and a huge map.
 

meatpardle

Warlord
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Nov 4, 2015
Messages
169
Yes if you know that another civ is dominant over you then you can save a lot of pain by just adopting their ideology. Also be aware that differing ideologies if often a reason for war - adopting the same ideology as Brazil might keep your people happy but if other aggressive civs have different ideologies they might come after you (and Brazil).

If you understand how to generate and manipulate culture/tourism then it's pretty easy on King level to first maintain your independence and then start influencing other civs - have a read of this - http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/culturalvictory.php.

danaphanous touched on it but look at culture as how you defend your national identity and tourism as how you promote it to influence others - if you have strong national identity (high culture) then it's hard for others to influence your people, while if you have high tourism it's easier to influence other civs (especially if they have low culture). If you have low culture then your national identity is weak and your people will look to other (influential) civs for their ideals, which is when you get unhappiness if your chosen ideology is different from a civ that your people revere.

You can become influential over other civs at any time but it really comes into play when ideologies are introduced. A very simple way to look at it is you need to spend the first 2/3 of the game building up culture to protect from the latter game when tourism really opens up. If you neglect culture through the game then by the time you realise other civs are using their tourism to push their identity and become influential over you it's too late for a peaceful solution.
 

MightySpice

Chieftain
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Feb 24, 2016
Messages
75
About open borders and trade. Suppose i have an output of tourism of 4 and someone else has 6. Of we both trade with eachother and both have open borders with eachother, the AI still is 50% ahead in my theory? Am i right?
 

meatpardle

Warlord
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Nov 4, 2015
Messages
169
No the comparison is between tourism and culture, not tourism and tourism.

So if you have a culture output of 50 and they have a tourism output of 60 then every turn their tourism total will 'catch-up' with your overall culture total by 10. When they have caught up and passed they own your ass.

If you share open borders and a trade route their tourism gets a 50% modifier but your culture doesn't, so the difference is now 50 culture to 90 tourism, and they are catching up by 40 per turn.

The benefit you get is in the opposite calculation your tourism output gets a boost against their culture score, so it helps you catch them up quicker as well. Rather than the modifiers from shared agreements/religions cancelling each other out they work on two separate calculations. At the same time they are trying to overtake your culture score with their tourism, while you are trying to overtake their culture score with your tourism.

What you need to decide is whether you have any chance of catching their total and how close they are to catching yours. If you are never going to catch them up but they are very close to catching your culture score then I would cancel the open borders and find other civs to trade with, as you are just helping them win.
 

beetle

Deity
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Suppose i have an output of tourism of 4 and someone else has 6.
As mp wrote, relative tourism output is not relevant. There is no direct game effect from that.

I would not have thought that ideology pressure was so vexing at King. I know I frequently struggle with it at Deity. OP, you write that you delay Ideologies so as to go with the flow. I would think that works pretty well, and I use that tactic sometimes as well, but the game seems like less fun that way. Some games, I have a particular VC in mind, so in those cases I really want to be first to Freedom or Autocracy. However, my usual preferred approach is to rush Ideologies, get to Order first (since the AIs seem to prefer it), and then beeline Railroads to build Kremlin (since it is unlocked earlier than Prora or SoL).

At that point, I can decide to ride things out or switch (right after unlocking an SP, so as not to lose much culture). It feels like win/win since, even if I do switch, (1) I am up one free SP, and (2) I prefer both Freedom and Autocracy to Order anyway! Building Kremlin is pretty reliable in my play, and when I do switch, in about half my games I can still snag Prora or SoL (so two free SP net, even with switching).

If you are never going to catch them up but they are very close to catching your culture score then I would cancel the open borders and find other civs to trade with, as you are just helping them win.
It may not really be helping them win (since at King they have little chance of any VC) but it is helping them exert Ideology pressure on you. You can close your borders and buy open borders from them for as little as 2gpt.
That feels cheesy to me, so I hardly ever do that. I get the impression that one-way open borders is a pretty common technique.
 

meatpardle

Warlord
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I'd also say it's entirely reasonable to dismiss tourism if you aren't interested in a culture victory, but you should ignore culture at your peril (especially when playing against the likes of Brazil or France, who generate a lot of tourism) as it defends you against others getting a culture victory or external ideological pressure on you :)p).
 

meatpardle

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I would not have thought that ideology pressure was so vexing at King. .

I guess it's vexing if you don't understand it, for two years I foolishly dismissed tourism as a gimmick that didn't need to be worried about while I went about my attempts at dom or science victories. I didn't even understand what a theming bonus was until a few months ago, now I find going for or fending off a cultural victory makes a far more engrossing end game than science or diplo.
 

beetle

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I agree that you don't want to ignore culture. It is not so much about &#8220;not loosing&#8221; as it is about happiness. If you can keep AIs with rival Ideologies from becoming influential over you, your empire will be significantly happier. Also, strong culture means extra SP, so that is always helpful.

Likewise, ignoring Tourism altogether might be weak play since getting Exotic influence with rival AI might be relatively easy. If a rival AI is running away with Tourism, getting Exotic tourism with them might be easier than preventing them from getting Popular with you. Again, your empire will be significantly happier, and happy helps every VC.
 

meatpardle

Warlord
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One thing that just occurred to me, is it possible for two civs to be simultaneously influential over each other? If the tourism v culture calculation is separate for each of the two civs then unless the game blocks it then in theory two civs of equally poor culture and decent tourism (unlikely, I know) could both reach that state.
 

meatpardle

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I agree that you don't want to ignore culture. It is not so much about “not loosing” as it is about happiness. If you can keep AIs with rival Ideologies from becoming influential over you, your empire will be significantly happier. Also, strong culture means extra SP, so that is always helpful.

Likewise, ignoring Tourism altogether might be weak play since getting Exotic influence with rival AI might be relatively easy. If a rival AI is running away with Tourism, getting Exotic tourism with them might be easier than preventing them from getting Popular with you. Again, your empire will be significantly happier, and happy helps every VC.

Very true, ultimately good efficient play benefits all round.
 

beetle

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I guess it's vexing if you don't understand it, for two years I foolishly dismissed tourism as a gimmick that didn't need to be worried about while I went about my attempts at dom or science victories.
It is a very interesting game mechanic! When I started with BNW, I ignored Tourism because there was so much other stuff to pick up from GnK. Ignoring tourism worked for me up to and at Emperor. Then I played Immortal and all of a sudden I was &#8220;mysteriously&#8221; losing cities!

One thing that just occurred to me, is it possible for two civs to be simultaneously influential over each other?
Yes, absolutely.

If the tourism v culture calculation is separate for each of the two civs then unless the game blocks it then in theory two civs of equally poor culture and decent tourism (unlikely, I know) could both reach that state.
I actually see this happen pretty frequently between rival AIs. In those cases, both are strong in culture and tourism. Being influential with another civ does not block that civ from winning by CV. In those cases, usually there is some third civ that neither AI is influential over, so that gives me the time to win by SV. Also, I have had more than a few Dom runs made complicated because there were two AIs that were influential with me (and everyone else) so I could not allow either to be eliminated.
 

danaphanous

religious fanatic
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I agree with Beetle. As I stated to the OP initially, actually regardless of whether you want to win culturally you want to have enough early tourism to get to "exotic" on every civ in the world before you choose ideologies. You should never completely neglect tourism because it is the easy way to make it so the AI does not influence you at all on levels emperor and below. Exactly what the OP was asking for. He doesn't care about winning just wants defense and this is the best defense. The reason is it is much easier to get exotic influence on AI then it is to get a massive enough culture no AI can get exotic on you (impossible on high levels).

Most of the trouble comes when AI gets exotic before you and it can result in large games where you basically can't be happy at any ideology due to all the influences. Being at least exotic on others is pretty easy since you only need 10% of their total culture and many AI will get there with you. If you do the same by running the culture specialists early and making great works that is one level of defense because the game subtracts your influence level on them from theirs on you. Since AI is usually bad at cultural victories I find it very uncommon that someone is "popular" already (30%) at ideologies meaning if I accomplish being exotic on most civs I basically am free to choose whatever I want and have time to respond to people that are gaining on me. If there is one or two that managed to do so well they are popular already at ideologies there is serious risk they will win a cultural victory before you can win in science or diplo so ramp up culture immediately, break open borders, or invade them. :)
 

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
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I agree that you don't want to ignore culture. It is not so much about “not loosing” as it is about happiness. If you can keep AIs with rival Ideologies from becoming influential over you, your empire will be significantly happier. Also, strong culture means extra SP, so that is always helpful.

Likewise, ignoring Tourism altogether might be weak play since getting Exotic influence with rival AI might be relatively easy. If a rival AI is running away with Tourism, getting Exotic tourism with them might be easier than preventing them from getting Popular with you. Again, your empire will be significantly happier, and happy helps every VC.

If you're not already running away in technology, stealing techs faster is a pretty significant increase in effective beakers/turn. Autocracy can really gouge that, but anybody can make use of it to a degree.
 

claudiupb

King
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It's not worth it to delay ideology to see who picks what and pick after them. If you are in the position to be first to ideology do it and pick what you need. You get 2 free tenants and the luxury of picking whatever you want. Compared with the strategy to wait and see, where you get maximum one free tenant and you are forced to take the ideology of the civ that influences you the most, it is a lot better. The extra free tenant can be used to get happiness, either use it for Universal Healthcare or specific to ideology things, like Capitalism or Universall Sufrage from freedom, Young Pioneers or Socialist Realism from order, Militarism or maybe Fortified Borders from autocracy. This can offset the Public Opinion unhappiness up to Civil Resistance and even higher, but you rarely get higher than than. If however you do get into revolutionary wave there are things to improve like getting more tourism , or more culture (specifically bulbing all your great writers during the WF bonus period + golden age) or maybe voting world ideology if you have control over the World Council.

The extra tenets and the luxury to take whatever ideology suits your VC better, far outweighs the benefit of having no negative Public Opinion. If you have radio and you are the only one with ideology you can also propose world ideology and get no diplomatic consequences if you manage to time it.
 

Illianor123

Warlord
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Aug 26, 2014
Messages
293
Even on Diety tourism doesn't matter much, as long as you have good culture. Popping great writers and artists will give you more culture anyway. And more culture means more social policies. Focus on winning World Fair as well to double your culture for 20? turns and then pop your great writers. Even better if you have a golden age during the worlds fair turns.

Picking first is always best as the two free tenants are great. If your worried about revolutions, spend those two on happy tenants and the rest on the good tenants deeper in the tree.

Are you working the guilds and trading for luxuries? At that point in the game you should have heaps of ways to generate happiness to overcome the revolutionary pressure.

Also it's "lose" not "loose"
 

claudiupb

King
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I loose those free tenants if i am forced into another ideology.

Yes but if you wait for the AIs to pick and then pick after them you won't be getting those free tenants anyway. Build the ideology specific wonder before switching, in worst case that is one free SP (Kremlin). So even if you are forced to switch you might end up in a better position, what do you even have to lose?

Let's say you go for order, and then you are forced to switch. Depending on how deep you went into order you benefited from: half cost factories, extra gold because of purchase reduction, a little period of science boost, other temporary yields boosts, a free SP with Kremlin, partially free GS and GE, maybe even some free courthouses and others.

With freedom it's even better: more turns of golden age, 6 units that are very good, influence on city states, a free SP plus a permanent boost to specialists.

Autocracy gives some nice boosts also, even if it's temporary: gold reduction is useful, tourism from futurism, extra techs from stealing, Prora is very useful, the extra XP might be useful if you manage to create a competitive army during the autocracy period, and others.
 
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