Christianity and Islam: ANY similarities?

How similar are Christianity and Islam?


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Ziggy Stardust said:
Another simularity then.

And about stealing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_story



The idea that Mithraism was copied by Christianity has been debunked many times:
We are now ready to embark upon the practical part of our essay in which we consider in turn each of the claims made by Acharya S of alleged "parallels" between Mithraism and Christianity.

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.


This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

That leaves the shepherds, and this is one that is entirely true; although the shepherds did more than "attend" (unlike Luke's shepherds, they were witnesses to the birth; there was no angelic mediator), they also helped Mithra out of the rock, and offered him the first-fruits of their flock -- quite a feat for these guys in any event, considering that Mithra's birth took place at a time when (oops!) men had supposedly not been created on earth yet. [Cum.MM, 132] But the clincher here is that this scene, like nearly all Roman Mithraic evidence, dates at least a century after the time of the New Testament. It is too late to say that any "borrowing" was done by the Christian church -- if there was any, it was the other way around; but there probably was not. (It is fair to note also that the Iranian Mithra didn't have a "born out of rock" story...his conception was attributed, variously, to an incestuous relationship between Ahura-Mazda and his mother, or to the plain doings of an ordinary mortal woman...but there is no virgin conception/birth story to speak of. [Cum.MM, 16] Acharya says that the Indian Mitra, "was born of a female, Aditi, the 'mother of the gods,' the inviolable or virgin dawn; this is simply yet another case of her applying terminology [a "dawn" as "virgin" -- so when does the dawn start "having sex" and how?] illicitly. So likewise this word game: "It could be suggested that Mithra was born of 'Prima Materia,' or 'Primordial Matter,' which could also be considered 'First Mother,' 'Virgin Matter,' 'Virgin Mother,' etc..." -- it can be "considered" no such thing except by vivid imagination; merely playing on the psycho-linguistic similarity of sound in the English words "matter" and "mother" and trying to equare "first" with "virgin" isn't going to do the job. Research Assistant Punkish adds: ADITI (according to an astrological website) means Free unbound. Boundless heaven as compared with the finite earth. A Vedic goddess representing the primeval generator of all that emanated. The eternal space of boundless whole, the unfathomable depth signifying the veil over the unknown. (Note, not matter/mother but generator of matter!) The Rig Veda describes it as the father and mother of all gods; it is named Devamatri, mother of all gods, or Swabhavat, that which exists by itself. She is frequently implored for blessing children and cattle, for protection and forgiveness. In the Yajur Veda, Aditi is addressed as the support of the sky, the sustainer of the earth, the sovereign of this world, and the wife of Vishnu. The Vishnu Purana describes Aditi, the daughter of Daksha and the wife of Kashyapa, to be the mother of 8 Adityas (q.v.) (wife of Vishnu or Kashyapa? bit unlikely to be virginal then!!!) Then we have this website Dialogueonline.net - Magazine (comparative research on major religions) where we find: "According to the Rigveda (10/72/2) Brahmanaspati, like a craftsman, created the gods, and the gods in turn created 'Sat' from 'Asat'. The Rigveda (10/72/4-5) further says, "Daksha was born of Aditi and Aditi was born of Daksha, the gods were born of Aditi and Aditi gave birth to eight sons". This mantra suggests mainly two things - first, Aditi and Daksha took birth of each other, which proposition is never possible; second, the Creator of this universe was Aditi because she gave birth to the gods. But it ridicules more brazenly when refuting such points Rigveda (8/90/15) says: "Aditi was daughter of Adityas". In this connection, Rigveda produces more than one controversy as Rigveda tots up that Aditi was mother of Vishnu and so Rigveda (4/55/3 8/27/5) clarifies, "Aditi mothered Vishnu". But repudiating the same verse Vajasaney Samhita (20/60) and Taitirya Samhita (7/5/14) consolidates that Aditi was wife of Vishnu. The goddess, who herself is found in various controversies is considered creator of this universe. Thus, these mantras fail to shed any meaningful light on the basic issue of the birth, motherhood and even creation of the universe by Aditi.", Creator And Creation In Hindu Perspective)

Acharya now adds in her work iconographic evidence allegedly showing "the babe Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, with the gift-bearing Magi genuflecting in front of them." One is constrained to ask how an icon reflects that Mithra's mother was a virgin, since it is obviously not stated. One also wants to know if any of this evidence is pre-Christian (it is not). Quoting others who merely say it is indicating a virgin birth, yet offer no more evidence, is not an argument. Finally, we are told of the "largest near-eastern Mithraeum [which] was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'." This is a very curious claim which is repeated around the Internet, but no source is given for it, and Acharya attributes it to a "writer" with no name or source. I believe, however, that I have found the terminal source, and it is a paper written in 1993 by a then-high school student, David Fingrut, who made this claim without any documentation whatsoever himself. His paper is now posted on the Net as a text file. That said, it is inaccurate to start with, since the building at Kanagvar is not a Mithraeum at all, but a temple to Anahita (dated 200 BC), and although I have found one source of untested value that affirms that Anahita was depicted as a virgin (in spite of being a fertility goddess!), she is regarded not at Mithra's mother, but as his consort (though it does offer other contradictory info) -- and it knows nothing of such an inscription as described; and the mere existence of the goddess Anahita before the Roman era proves nothing. Acharya appears to be throwing ringers again.

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
Aside from the fact that this is what we would expect from any major leadership figure, especially in a religious context ("He was a great god -- he taught us nothing!"), I have to say that this looks to be the first of several outright "ringers" in the set. I have found nowhere any indication that Mithra was a teacher, traveling or otherwise. (He probably could be called a "master," but what leading figure would not be? And a master in what sense? This is rather a vague parallel to draw!) At any rate, since there is no evidence for this one in any of the Mithraic literature, we issue our first challenge to the pagan-copycat theorists, especially Acharya S: How is it shown that Mithra was a "great traveling teacher"? What did he teach, and where, and to whom? How was he a "master" and why is this a similarity to Jesus?

He had 12 companions or disciples.
I have seen this claim repeated a number of times, almost always (see below) without any documentation. (One of our readers wrote to Acharya asking for specific evidence of this one...she did not reply, although she had readily replied to a prior message.) The Iranian Mithras, as we have seen, did have a single companion (Varuna), and the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions, tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself, called Cautes and Cautopatres, that were perhaps meant to represent the sunrise and sunset (whereas "Big Daddy" Mithra was supposed to be noon), spring and autumn, the stars Albedaran and Antares [Beck.PO, 26] or life and death. (Freke and Gandy absurdly attempt to link these twins to the two thieves crucified with Jesus! - Frek.JM, 51 - because one went to heaven with Jesus [torch up] and one went to hell [torch down]! Why not link instead to Laurel and Hardy, because one was repentant [torch down] and the other was a bully [torch up]!) Mithra also had a number of animal companions: a snake, a dog, a lion, a scorpion -- but not 12 of them.

Now here's an irony. My one idea as to where they got this one was a picture of the bull-slaying scene carved in stone, found in Ulansey's book, that depicts the scene framed by 2 vertical rows with 6 pictures of what seem to be human figures or faces on each side. It occurred to me that some non-Mithraist perhaps saw this picture and said, "Ah ha, those 12 people must be companions or disciples! Just like Jesus!" Days later I received Freke and Gandy's book, and sure enough -- that's how they make the connection. Indeed, they go as far as saying that during the Mirthaic initiation ceremony, Mithraic disciples dressed up as the signs of the zodiac and formed a circle around the initiate. [Frek.JM, 42] Where they (or rather, their source) get this information about the methods of Mithraic initiation, one can only guess: No Mithraic scholar seems aware of it, and their source, Godwin, is a specialist in "Western esoteric teaching" -- not a Mithraist, and it shows, because although writing in 1981, well after the first Mithraic congress, Godwin was still following Cumont's line that Iranian and Roman Mithraism were the same, and thus ended up offering interpretations of the bull-slaying scene that bear no resemblance to what Mithraic scholars today see in it at all. (To be fair, though, Freke and Gandy do not give the page number where Godwin supposedly says this -- and his material on Mithraism says nothing about any initiation ceremony.) However, aside from the fact that this carving is (yet again!) significantly post-Christian (so that any borrowing would have had to be the other way), these figures have been identified by modern Mithraic scholars as representing zodiacal symbols. Indeed, the top two faces are supposed to be the sun and the moon!

Acharya in her latest now acknowledges that Mithra's dozen are the zodiac, but goes on the defense by saying, "the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a 'last supper' is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism" -- with the Mithraic supper compared to the Last Supper (see below). She also adds: "The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundreds years before Jesus. This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, 'Agis and Kleomenes' 37:2-3." This is only partly true -- I was alerted to this passage by a helpful reader: "For [Cleomenes] sacrificed, and gave them large portions, and, with a garland upon his head, feasted and made merry with his friends. It is said that he began the action sooner than he designed, having understood that a servant who was privy to the plot had gone out to visit a mistress that he loved. This made him afraid of a discovery; and therefore, as soon as it was full noon, and all the keepers sleeping off their wine, he put on his coat, and opening his seam to bare his right shoulder, with his drawn sword in his hand, he issued forth, together with his friends provided in the same manner, making thirteen in all." It's a "last supper," but it isn't invested with any significance in itself (least of all, atoning significance! -- and these guys clearly had to have a "last meal" at some point!), and the twelve companions don't have any real role beyond this pericope. We'd put this own down as natural coincidence (as there are people with five, 10, or other numbers of companions as well.)

Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
On this one, Acharya is making no more than a guess, although probably a good one: As one Mithraic scholar put it, Mithraism "surely offered its initiates deliverance from some awful fate to which all other men were doomed, and a privileged passage to some ultimate state of well-being." [MS.470] Why is this a good guess? Not because Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, or Christianity borrowed from Mithraism, or anyone borrowed from anyone, but because if you don't promise your adherents something that secures their eternity, you may as well give up running a religion and go and sell timeshares in Alaska! In practical terms, however, the only hard evidence of a "salvational" ideology is a piece of graffiti found in the Santa Prisca Mithraeum (a Mithraist "church" building, if you will), dated no earlier than 200 AD, that reads, "And us, too, you saved by spilling the eternal blood." [Spie.MO, 45; Gor.IV, 114n; Verm.MSG, 172] Note that this refers to Mithra spilling the blood of the bull -- not his own -- and that (according to the modern Mithraic "astrological" interpretation) this does not mean "salvation" in a Christian sense (involving freedom from sin) but an ascent through levels of initiation into immortality.

He performed miracles.
Mithra did perform a number of actions rather typical for any deity worldwide, true or false, and in both his Iranian and Roman incarnations. But this is another one of those things where we just say, "What's the big deal?" We agree with Miller:

It must be remembered that SOME general similarities MUST apply to any religious leader. They must generally be good leaders, do noteworthy feats of goodness and/or supernatural power, establish teachings and traditions, create community rituals, and overcome some forms of evil. These are common elements of the religious life--NOT objects that require some theory of dependence...The common aspect of homo religiosus is an adequate and more plausible explanation than dependence.
Of course, our pagan-copycat theorists are welcome to try and draw more exact parallels, but as yet I have seen no cited example where Mithra turned water into wine or calmed a storm.

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
This description is rather spun out into a sound-alike of Christian belief, but behind the vagueness lies a different story. Mithra did not "sacrifice himself" in the sense that he died; he was not the "great bull of the Sun", but rather, he killed the bull (attempts to somehow identify Mithra with the very bull he slayed, although popular with outdated non-Mithraists like Loisy and Bunsen, were rejected by Vermaseren, who said that "neither the temples nor the inscriptions give any definite evidence to support this view and only future finds can confirm it" [Verm.MSG, 103]; it was not for the sake of "world peace" (except, perhaps, in the sense that Cumont interpreted the bull-slaying as a creation myth [Cum.MM, 193], in which he was entirely wrong). Mithra could only be said to have "sacrificed himself" in the sense that he went out and took a risk to do a heroic deed; the rest finds no justification at all in modern Mithraic studies literature -- much less does it entail a parallel to Christ, who sacrificed himself for atonement from personal sin (not "world peace").

Punkish has added this: ...[T]he footnote [in Christ Conspiracy] reads O'Hara, which in the bibliography is Gwydion O'Hara, Sun Lore. Now if you look this guy up on Amazon.com you find his book reviews are not very positive, in fact he's the sort of person, like Barbara Walker, who makes things up. What kind of authority is he? He isn't: he's a writer on pagan practices and he was once a high priest of the Wiccan Church of Canada at a time when it was an ideal rather than a reality (!)...sounds like another nut. What's Acharya doing using this guy instead of a Mithraic scholar?

He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
I have to classify these two as "ringers" -- I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is "no death of Mithras" -- Gor.IV, 96] and so of course no rising again and no "resurrection" (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 56] claim that the Mithraic initiates "enacted a similar resurrection scene", but their only reference is to a comment by Tertullian, significantly after New Testament times! Tekton Research Assistant Punkish adds: The footnote is for Tertullian's Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 40 which says, "if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan, ) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown" ...so their argument relies on Tertullian's memory, and it isn't the initiates but Mithra who does the celebrating and introduces an *image* of a resurrection?! How is that at all related to initiates acting out a scene? Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late, guys! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all!) Acharya adds the assertion of Dupuis that Mithras was killed by crucifixion, but from the description, either Dupuis or Acharya are mixing up Mithra with Attis!

He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
Only the third aspect has any truth to it as far as I can find from Mithraic studies sources: The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem" animal, just as Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer [Biv.PM, 32]. Since Mithra was a sun-god, there was also an association with Leo, which was the House of the Sun in Babylonian astrology. But aside from this evidence all being post-Christian, one may ask what the big deal is. Do we expect the Christians or the Mithraists to say, "Darn, we can't use the lion, it's already taken by the other guys?" Should Exxon give up their tiger because of Frosted Flakes? But if you really want to get technical, Jesus owned the rights to the lion symbol as a member of the tribe of Judah long before Mithras even appeared in his Iranian incarnation (Gen. 49:9).

There are other associations as well: In the Roman material, one of Mithra's companions in the bull-slaying scene is a lion; the lion is sometimes Mithra's hunting and feasting companion; Mithra is sometimes associated with a lion-headed being who is sometimes identified as the evil Zoroastrian god Ahriman [MS.277]; one of the seven stages of initiation in Mithraism is the lion stage. But Mithra is only called a lion in one Mithraic tale (which is part of Armenian folklore -- where did the writers of the NT pick that up?) because as a child he killed a lion and split it in two. [MS.356, 442]

He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah." Acharya now adds in her latest work the titles creator of the world, God of gods, the mediator, mighty ruler, king of gods, lord of heaven and earth, Sun of Righteousness.
We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
We'll consider these two together. The Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations: a festival on October 8; another on September 12-16, and a "cattle-pairing" festival on October 12-16 [MS.59]. But as for an Easter festival, I have seen only that there was a festival at the spring equinox -- and it was one of just four, one for each season.

In terms of Sunday being a sacred day, this is correct [Cum.MM, 190-1], but it only appears in Roman Mithraism, and Acharya here is apparently assuming, like Cumont, that what held true for Roman Mithraism also held true for the Iranian version -- but there is no evidence for this. If any borrowing occurred (it probably didn't), it was the other way around.

His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it's actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] -- the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic "Eucharist," there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of "evidence" is far, far too late to be useful -- except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer's Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a "Last Supper" was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world -- from religious groups to funereal societies. [MS.348]

"His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
This is rather a confused statement, for it compounds an apparent falsity (I have found no indication that Mithra's "sacrifice" was annual, rather than a once-in-the-past event); it uses terms from Judeo-Christian belief ("passover", "atonement") to describe a rite from Mithraism, without showing any similarities at all. I see this as little more than a case of illicitly applying terminology, and until more detail is provided, it can be regarded as little else.

Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ." In her latest work Acharya attributes this comment also to Weigall.
In response to this, I need to say that if Golding has or Weigall had some Mithraic scriptures in their possession, they need to turn them over to Mithraic scholarly community at once, because they will want to know about them. Ulansey [Ulan.OMM, 3] tells us that "the teachings of the (Mithraic) cult were, as far as we know, never written down" and we "have been left with practically no literary evidence relating to the cult which would help (us) reconstruct its esoteric doctrines." So where is Golding/Weigall getting this from?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"


You can read the rest here:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
 
Katheryn said:
Christianity accepted the Old Testament AS IS and didn't change it. Didn't twist the stories so that they were about Christians.

We didn't take the story of Moses and say, "Oh really, Moses didn't give the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but to the Arabs at THEIR mountain" Which is totally absurd.

And, all of the church was Jewish for many years.

The message was for them, Jesus was Jewish.
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.

And please don't argue that Christianity never stole anything from anyone else. That is an argument that you absolutely cannot win. As examples, the dualism, and much else, in Judeo-Christian thought comes from Zoroastrianism and the virgin birth and resurrection from various pagan cults. Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

I would lend more credence to the above text, if it came from a university or other credible source, rather than some lone creationist. Incidentally, it seems to say that Christianity borrowed many things, just not from Mithraism.
 
Perfectionist said:
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.
And please don't argue that Christianity never stole anything from anyone else. That is an argument that you absolutely cannot win. As examples, the dualism, and much else, in Judeo-Christian thought comes from Zoroastrianism and the virgin birth and resurrection from various pagan cults. Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

A very good post :)
 
Perfectionist said:
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.

While I basically agree with you here, I'd make the important distinction between 'twisting' and 'reinterpreting'. The Gospel writers themselves ('Mark' and 'Matthew', at the very least, and quite probably 'Luke') were Jewish Christians, as was Paul. This means they were making sense of their faith through a Jewish lens. They would hardly twist their traditions, although they might reread them.

I agree that the Hebrew Bible does not support a cohesive image of a 'messiah', but at the same time, it does not support a lot of things. Rabbinic Judaism itself is a form of Judaism only to emerge in response to a particular set of historical circumstances, interpreting the Jewish faith as best possible in the absence of a temple, with its own extra-canonical teachings to support its ideas.

Christianity does the same, but with some different assumptions and influences. I wouldn't say twisted, just understood in a radically different way.

Perfectionist said:
And please don't argue that Christianity never stole anything from anyone else. That is an argument that you absolutely cannot win. As examples, the dualism, and much else, in Judeo-Christian thought comes from Zoroastrianism and the virgin birth and resurrection from various pagan cults. Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

Agreed.
 
oagersnap said:
You say that you can't reject one bit of the Quran without rejecting the whole thing, but apparently you can with the Bible, what's the difference?

The difference is that the Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament is for the Christians. There are little, if any rules for Christians other than, Love God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor as yourself.

So, I'm not sure what you mean by 'rejecting' parts of the Bible. We don't, some of it just isn't meant for us. We can glean principles and make deductions about what God's nature is... and we study the prophecies, but the RULES in the Old Testament are NOT for Christians. PERIOD.
 
Perfectionist said:
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.

I've posted many of the exact prophecies you are talking about right here in this thread. Mostly it came from the Book of Isaiah, which is identical to the one found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, identical to the one that the Jews use.

So, that is totally incorrect.
 
Katheryn said:
And the 'Virgin' comes from the sky, for heaven's sake.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
 
HannibalBarka said:
Moderate Muslim: some one who is moderate and who is muslim

Moderate: see the definition above
Muslim: someone claiming to be muslim and believing Allah is the only God and Mohammad is his prophet.

Cristal clear, no?

No its not clear. The definition of a moderate Muslim is only valid to the person providing the definition. Their is no conclusive meaning to a moderate Muslim. Whether a moderate Muslim even exists depends on how you define a "moderate muslim." What are the characteristics of a moderate Muslim? Is it one who will never engage in a terroristic attacks? Or is a moderate one who sincerely disapproves of Islamic terrorism? Or is a moderate Muslim one who vocally renounces jihadists? It is very possible that the friendly "moderate" Muslim living next door to you is supporting the jihadists in Afghanistan or Palestine while condemning terrorism in Iraq.

As aneeshm pointed out, the moderate Muslim is an invention of the Westren media for the purpose of making a distinction between the Muslims who engage in jihad and those Muslims that do not. There is a difference between those Muslims who participate in jihad and those that do not, however it is not as easily definitive or clear cut by simply branding one a moderate Muslim and the other as an extremist. Regardless of how you brand a Muslim, all Muslims advocate the establishment of societies whose organizing principle is Islam.
And for that reason I mad the conclusion that if Katheryn represents the "extreme" element of Christianity I would rather live in a city of Christian extremists than in a community of moderate Muslims. All "moderate" Muslims are potential extremists.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectionist
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.



While I basically agree with you here, I'd make the important distinction between 'twisting' and 'reinterpreting'. The Gospel writers themselves ('Mark' and 'Matthew', at the very least, and quite probably 'Luke') were Jewish Christians, as was Paul. This means they were making sense of their faith through a Jewish lens. They would hardly twist their traditions, although they might reread them.

I agree that the Hebrew Bible does not support a cohesive image of a 'messiah', but at the same time, it does not support a lot of things. Rabbinic Judaism itself is a form of Judaism only to emerge in response to a particular set of historical circumstances, interpreting the Jewish faith as best possible in the absence of a temple, with its own extra-canonical teachings to support its ideas.

Christianity does the same, but with some different assumptions and influences. I wouldn't say twisted, just understood in a radically different way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectionist

And please don't argue that Christianity never stole anything from anyone else. That is an argument that you absolutely cannot win. As examples, the dualism, and much else, in Judeo-Christian thought comes from Zoroastrianism and the virgin birth and resurrection from various pagan cults. Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

That is complete BS. I have posted many Old Testament texts that have explained the Messiah is great detail.

Here is another:

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant


13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—

15 so will he sprinkle many nations, [d]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

And this one:


Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by knowledge of him, my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

And lest you try to say it was 'altered' in some way, you can look at teh Dead Sea Scrolls here:

www.deadseascrolls.com

They are identical.

How could you say that this sounds like a "secular" Messiah. That is nonsense.
 
Perfectionist said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.


The Virgin in the Constellations.... ie God has made known His nature in the sky... His plan for mankind....
 
Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

============


The reason why pagan festivals were incorporated into the church is because the converts to Christianity were basically the lowest on the totem pole, and the didn't have too many days off, you see. And these pagan festivals were the ones. So, if they became Christians, they no longer got hte day off. To fix the situation, the missionaries came up with the brilliant idea: "Say we don't hold one day above another, we have no "feast days" and every day belongs to the Lord, so why don't we make some up so these guys can have a day off?"

And that is what happened. How awful. Such soft hearts.

But the bottom line is that Christians don't hold one day above another, and that includes "Christmas" and all the rest. They really don't exist and we know it.
 
Perfectionist said:
First off, Christians did twist the old testament. There is a prophecy in the OT that the Messiah will be descended from the sons of David, so the gospels establish long genealogies to try to make Joseph a descendant of David. The two genealogies are radically different. Also, the Messiah in the old testament is primarily a secular figure: the king of Israel, not the son of god. Christians twisted that interpretation to meet their own ends.

I have already given scriptures that show the 'Son of God' was coming, so I'm not going to do it again.

And it is commonly held that the two geneologies are one for Mary and one for Joseph. Since they were only done through the father (they are all men as you can see) it had to be fudged somewhat because Jesus didn't have a human father.
 
Sources
Books that are in red have been bought by this ministry thanks to the contributions of readers like you, and have helped make this essay possible. If you would like to help us with our efforts in defending the faith, click here.

Beck.PO -- Beck, Roger. Planetary Gods and Planetary Orders in the Mysteries of Mithras. London: Brill, 1988.
Biv.PM -- Bivar, A. D. The Personalities of Mithra in Archaeology and Literature. New York: Bibliotheca Persica Press, 1998.
Cum.MM -- Cumont, Franz. The Mysteries of Mithra. New York: Dover, 1950.
Frek.JM -- Freke, Timothy and Peter Gandy. The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? New York: Harmony Books, 1999.
Gor.IV -- Gordon, Richard. Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World. Aldershot: Variorum, 1996.
Lae.MO -- Laeuchli, Samuel. Mithraism in Ostia: Mystery Religions and Christianity in the Ancient Port of Rome. Northwestern U. Press, 1967.
MS -- Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester U. Press, 1975.
Spei.MO -- Spiedel, Michael. Mithras-Orion, Greek Hero and Roman Army God. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1980.
Ulan.OMM -- Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. New York: Oxford U. Press, 1989.
Ver.MSG -- Vermaseren, M. J. Mithras the Secret God. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1963.
Wyn.MFC -- Wynne-Tyson, Esme. Mithras: The Fellow in the Cap. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1958.

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This guy has plenty of sources, and has a master's degree in Library Sciences, so he is good at research!
 
He is a creationist, and as such has absolutely no academic credibility.
 
Well, I can leave it up to Katheryn to defend General Christianity :thumbsup:
 
Perfectionist said:
And please don't argue that Christianity never stole anything from anyone else. That is an argument that you absolutely cannot win. As examples, the dualism, and much else, in Judeo-Christian thought comes from Zoroastrianism and the virgin birth and resurrection from various pagan cults. Pagan festivals were adopted by Christians. All religions borrow things from each other, and it is no crime for any of them.

Christianity is not dualistic. God has absolute power and the devil doesn't. It wasn't the devil who brought sin into the world either. In dualism, an equal evil force brings suffering, but this is not the case in Christianity.

Perfectionist said:
He is a creationist, and as such has absolutely no academic credibility.

:lol: He disagrees with me. Therefore, I cannot lower my standards to listen to him.
 
puglover said:
How are the two geneologies "radically different?"
One has 25 generations and the other has 40. That is a gigantic difference.

Christianity is not dualistic. God has absolute power and the devil doesn't. It wasn't the devil who brought sin into the world either. In dualism, an equal evil force brings suffering, but this is not the case in Christianity.
Christianity has strong dualistic undertones. Before the Zoroastrian influence was felt, Judeo-Christian thought had no concept of a devil. In early Jewish texts, Satanel is but another member of God's court. Later, Satan becomes the great enemy of God, who is responsible for all human suffering. And, if God has absolute power, why does the devil exist?
 
puglover said:
:lol: He disagrees with me. Therefore, I cannot lower my standards to listen to him.
He believes something completely ridiculous. Creationism is verifiably false. Go look at Perf's thread if you do not realize that. Anyone who thinks otherwise is putting blind faith above reason. You will agree that reason is extremely important in conducting any sort of research, and anyone who puts faith completely above reason cannot produce research of value. In particular, he has shown that he places the Bible above all else. In a discussion of the origins of the Bible, do you think that he can be even close to impartial?
 
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