Christianity and Islam: ANY similarities?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Aneeshm, what would you call the people who live near me who follow the koran, go to the mosque and listen to the imam who also quotes the koran? They just don't subscribe to all them killings of infidels and what have you.

What other word or words would you propose for the western concept of 'moderate muslim'?

edit: do you think it;s possible to be a moderate christian?

edit 2: This is pure curiousity. These people call themselves moderate muslims, and I have a great deal of respect for them since they are my neighbours and some of the most friendly and hospitable (sp?) people I know, so I will keep calling them that out of that respect.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Correction :
Muslim : Someone who believes in Allah to be the only God and Mohammed to be his Last , Final , and Fulfilled Prophet .
A number of things follow from this definition . If he believes Mohammed to be the last Prophet , the fulfilled and fulfilment , then he has to accept the Quran and the Hadith traditions as authentic sources of law and behaviour .

Correction: that is not a correction but a longer definition

There are things in these sources incompatible with the definition of "moderate" , which is a modern counstruct of the West , and completely inappropriate when dealing with cultures such as those which spawned Islam and which Islam in turn spawned . ( This is a fundamental difficulty when discussing things in a Western cultural context , such as this forum , because many words and concepts have no equivalents in other cultures , and trying to invent them is meaningless . )

There is maybe no words meaning Moderate in Hindi or whatever is your native language, but that does not mean it does not exist in other languages

Indonesia is a very , very painful example of this "turning away" that is happening as we speak .

Aneesh, Indonesian left Hinduism and embraced Islam, I know it is very hard for you to accept it and it's bad for your ego and it contradicts all the Hinduist-Nazionalist crap you have been reading, but you need to get over it and look forward. Indonisian are happy being mslims and that's what's important after all

Iran is the painful example of how one of the greatest and most creative of human cultures was destroyed by Arab imperialism .

See above

A "Moderate" "Muslim" is like saying "Tolerant" "Bigot" . It is one of history's calamities that the children of Arab imperialism are faced with a stark "exclusive or" choice - either be moderate , or be Muslim . And the terrorism menace is showing us what they are choosing .

Yeah I know, I am seeing millions of Arabs attaking India to convert it for a place in paradise

 

[aneeshm]

Aneeshm, what would you call the people who live near me who follow the koran, go to the mosque and listen to the imam who also quotes the koran? They just don't subscribe to all them killings of infidels and what have you.

I'd call them incomplete Muslims . The killing of infidels bit is as important as everything else in the Quran .

The revelation being final and binding on all believers , rejecting even a single bit of it means that you reject the moral basis of the whole . The more totalitarian an ideology is , the more fronts on which doubt can creep in . These Muslims you speak of are rejecting the moral basis of their own religion . But thank God for that !

What other word or words would you propose for the western concept of 'moderate muslim'?

"Apostate" ?

edit: do you think it;s possible to be a moderate christian?

In Christianity , as Katheryn pointed out , you go to heaven if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour . That's about the only unavoidable demand made on you . Ignore the ramblings of the Church for the moment , and go only by the Holy Texts , and this the conclusion you come to . This demand is in no way incompatible with living a normal life - it does not intrude upon other spheres ( "Render unto Caesar" and all that ) .

In Islam , there is no such distinction . If the Prophet , for example , said that you have to keep the beard and trim the moustache , then that's it , you have to do it , irrespective of whatever your personal opinion or face structure might be . ( The origin of this custom is revealing about what shaped the psyche of Mohammed . It is said that the Jews used to trim the moustache and keep the beard . In order to show himself and his followers as distinct from and the opposite of the Jews , he ordered Muslims to do the opposite . ) Rejecting even one little insignificant commandment means a rejection of the structure underlying the whole . That's one of the things that leads to the collapse of totalitarian ideologies - their own completeness is their downfall .

edit 2: This is pure curiousity. These people call themselves moderate muslims, and I have a great deal of respect for them since they are my neighbours and some of the most friendly and hospitable (sp?) people I know, so I will keep calling them that out of that respect.

Go ahead . If they are happy in their delusion , I'd recommend you treat them as you would anybody else . My behaviour towards Muslims is the same as my behaviour towards anyone else , because they're genuinely unaware of the heresy they're falling into , and I have no wish to awaken them from their slumber . In their case , ignorance truly is bliss , so just let sleeping dogs lie . Trust me , when I look at one of the hottest girls in our college , her religion is the last thing on my mind .


But let me warn you - their hospitality is , strictly speaking , forbidden , and technically , they should not be friendly to you . It is a testament to their goodness of heart that they ignore their religion's injunctions and welcome you among them .

 

[Perfectionist]

I'd call them incomplete Muslims . The killing of infidels bit is as important as everything else in the Quran .

I think a Muslim would disagree with you. As I understand it, the only thing necessary to be considered a Muslim is reciting the shahadah before witnesses. Everything after that is "the ramblings of the Church". If I am mistaken, please correct me.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@Aneeshm, thanks for answering my question and a few others I didn't want to ask.

There aren't many muslims on these forums are there?

 

[HannibalBarka]

I'd call them incomplete Muslims.

OK, I think the way you call muslims is the least of their problems. I call Hindu-Fachists incomplete human, but that is not the point.

The killing of infidels bit is as important as everything else in the Quran .
The revelation being final and binding on all believers , rejecting even a single bit of it means that you reject the moral basis of the whole . The more totalitarian an ideology is , the more fronts on which doubt can creep in . These Muslims you speak of are rejecting the moral basis of their own religion . But thank God for that !

We all know you are in a much better position than muslim themselves to know if they are mslims or no

In Christianity , as Katheryn pointed out , you go to heaven if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour . That's about the only unavoidable demand made on you . Ignore the ramblings of the Church for the moment , and go only by the Holy Texts , and this the conclusion you come to . This demand is in no way incompatible with living a normal life - it does not intrude upon other spheres ( "Render unto Caesar" and all that ) .
In Islam , there is no such distinction . If the Prophet , for example , said that you have to keep the beard and trim the moustache , then that's it , you have to do it , irrespective of whatever your personal opinion or face structure might be . ( The origin of this custom is revealing about what shaped the psyche of Mohammed . It is said that the Jews used to trim the moustache and keep the beard . In order to show himself and his followers as distinct from and the opposite of the Jews , he ordered Muslims to do the opposite . ) Rejecting even one little insignificant commandment means a rejection of the structure underlying the whole . That's one of the things that leads to the collapse of totalitarian ideologies - their own completeness is their downfall .

Yeah well, in Christianity it is said that sodomy is not good and that is kind of unavoidable

Go ahead . If they are happy in their delusion , I'd recommend you treat them as you would anybody else . My behaviour towards Muslims is the same as my behaviour towards anyone else , because they're genuinely unaware of the heresy they're falling into , and I have no wish to awaken them from their slumber. In their case , ignorance truly is bliss , so just let sleeping dogs lie . Trust me , when I look at one of the hottest girls in our college , her religion is the last thing on my mind .

We all know that the 1 billion muslims around the world are waiting for you to awaken them. You really are overestimating you intelligence Aneeshm

But let me warn you - their hospitality is , strictly speaking , forbidden , and technically , they should not be friendly to you . It is a testament to their goodness of heart that they ignore their religion's injunctions and welcome you among them .

Let's don't get strict and technical than
Do you think a Dalit marrying your daughter or your sister strictly speaking , forbidden , and technically not OK?

 

[aneeshm]

Correction: that is not a correction but a longer definition

First of all , that's a wrong use of the word correction . You did not correct what I said , you merely gave your opinion on what you thought my correction was . It would have been a correction if and only if you gave another , more precise definition of Muslim . But I'll let that lapse pass .

More importantly , that is not a longer definition , it is a more precise one , one from whose consequences you cannot escape using hand-waving .

There is maybe no words meaning Moderate in Hindi or whatever is your native language, but that does not mean it does not exist in other languages

My native language is Marathi . And there are quite a few words for "moderate" in Marathi . So are there in Hindi . I'm simply saying that there is no cultural equivalent . All the words , though meaning the same thing , have different flavours . There is no exact equivalent . But that's just an inherent property of language and culture , nothing can be done about it .

Similarly , in a culture such as Islam , there is no concept of "moderate" , because there is no moderateness possible when your immortal soul is on the line . Tell me this , Hannibal - could you be moderate if you genuinely believed that the results of your actions could lead to you going to heaven or hell ?

Aneesh, Indonesian left Hinduism and embraced Islam, I know it is very hard for you to accept it and it's bad for your ego and it contradicts all the Hinduist-Nazionalist crap you have been reading, but you need to get over it and look forward. Indonisian are happy being mslims and that's what's important after all

My ego is not involved in this . I am just watching more than two thousand years of cultural evolution being destroyed at the thousand year old whim of a hallucinating Arab . Indonesia "embraced" Islam only because Hindu India was destroyed . Islam destroyed the creative culture of Hindu India , and that resulted in a cultural drought , the effects of which are felt today across not just India , but stretching from Afghanistan to the southernmost tip of Indonesia . Have you ever wondered why it is that one of the most prosperous provinces of Indonesia happens to be Bali - Indonesia's only remaining Hindu province ? Why it is that it is the one in which the tourisn industry is overwhelmingly concentrated ? And why , tragially , is it , that it is targeted by terrorists ?

And you're far too combative . You cannot refrain from calling me names . You have called ma a Nazi right now . You have called whatever it is you perceive that I believe to be crap . This is called trolling and flamebaiting . For this , consider yourself reported .

See above

Persia is one of India's traditional enemies . But what happened to it , I would not wish on my worst enemy . Once the seat of world power , the home of the first declaration of human rights , now reduced to its present pitiable state . Where has gone the Persia of old ? Where has gone its magnificent culture ? Where have gone Persepolis and Pasargadae ? Where has gone the enemy of Greece , the equal of Rome ? Where have gone its fire temples ? Where have gone its sacred fires ?

Yeah I know, I am seeing millions of Arabs attaking India to convert it for a place in paradise

This is not even worth answering .

 

[oagersnap]

In Christianity , as Katheryn pointed out , you go to heaven if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour . That's about the only unavoidable demand made on you . Ignore the ramblings of the Church for the moment , and go only by the Holy Texts , and this the conclusion you come to . This demand is in no way incompatible with living a normal life - it does not intrude upon other spheres ( "Render unto Caesar" and all that ) .

In Islam , there is no such distinction . If the Prophet , for example , said that you have to keep the beard and trim the moustache , then that's it , you have to do it , irrespective of whatever your personal opinion or face structure might be . ( The origin of this custom is revealing about what shaped the psyche of Mohammed . It is said that the Jews used to trim the moustache and keep the beard . In order to show himself and his followers as distinct from and the opposite of the Jews , he ordered Muslims to do the opposite . ) Rejecting even one little insignificant commandment means a rejection of the structure underlying the whole . That's one of the things that leads to the collapse of totalitarian ideologies - their own completeness is their downfall .

So the 990 million people who call themselves muslims but don't necessarily do everything that the Quran says, what are they?
Why don't you leave it to the muslims themselves to say who is and who isn't a muslim? Because by your definition, there would be max 20 million muslims.
Just like the rules in the Bible isn't followed 100%, the Quran isn't either, only by the 1-2% that you call muslims.

But let me warn you - their hospitality is , strictly speaking , forbidden , and technically , they should not be friendly to you . It is a testament to their goodness of heart that they ignore their religion's injunctions and welcome you among them .

Yes, technically they shouldn't be friends with us, but the huge majority of them are, because they know that they can be religious without being too religious, i.e. following the words of the Quran 100%.

It's sad, but many muslims in Arabia are being "brainwashed" by their dictators, who use religion as a tool to keep their populations angry at the christians instead of being angry at the dictators.

 

[aneeshm]

So the 990 million people who call themselves muslims but don't necessarily do everything that the Quran says, what are they?
Why don't you leave it to the muslims themselves to say who is and who isn't a muslim? Because by your definition, there would be max 20 million muslims.
Just like the rules in the Bible isn't followed 100%, the Quran isn't either, only by the 1-2% that you call muslims.

But that's the problem , my dear fellow ! This is not my definition , this is their definition ! All their authorities agree that you have to follow the Quran and the Hadith traditions in order to be a Muslim . This is not my opinion , this is the opinion of the Muslims themselves throughout history ! And not just throughout history , but even now . Just look up the fatwas issued by the Darul Uloom ( Deoband ) , or by any other Muslim authority .

Yes, technically they shouldn't be friends with us, but the huge majority of them are, because they know that they can be religious without being too religious, i.e. following the words of the Quran 100%.

How ? When paradise is on the line , there is nothing as being "too" religious . Rejecting even one bit of the Quran means that you reject the basis of the whole , because if God can be wrong in one thing , then who is to say what else he will be wrong in ? In fact , how can you call him God at all , then ?

It's sad, but many muslims in Arabia are being "brainwashed" by their dictators, who use religion as a tool to keep their populations angry at the christians instead of being angry at the dictators.

The problem is , the brainwashing is genuine - what they are being told about the pure faith is actually the pure faith .

 

[Mathilda]

Moderator Action:

A "Moderate" "Muslim" is like saying "Tolerant" "Bigot"

I call Hindu-Fachists incomplete human, but that is not the point.

Both warned for trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[oagersnap]

But that's the problem , my dear fellow ! This is not my definition , this is their definition ! All their authorities agree that you have to follow the Quran and the Hadith traditions in order to be a Muslim . This is not my opinion , this is the opinion of the Muslims themselves throughout history ! And not just throughout history , but even now . Just look up the fatwas issued by the Darul Uloom ( Deoband ) , or by any other Muslim authority .

Even though the "authorities" say that's how the religion is, that doesn't make it that way. The vast majority of the muslims have nothing against christians or people of other religions. Unfortunately it's the extremist minority who speaks the loudest.

How ? When paradise is on the line , there is nothing as being "too" religious . Rejecting even one bit of the Quran means that you reject the basis of the whole , because if God can be wrong in one thing , then who is to say what else he will be wrong in ? In fact , how can you call him God at all , then ?

You say that you can't reject one bit of the Quran without rejecting the whole thing, but apparently you can with the Bible, what's the difference?
Both are very old texts and were written to fit the society back then, over 1000 years ago. They can't be used in modern society without rejecting some of the rules in them. Unfortunately, some people, both muslims and christians, think that everything in those scriptures should be done excactly as it's written. Some of those people turn into terrorists.


The problem is , the brainwashing is genuine - what they are being told about the pure faith is actually the pure faith .[/QUOTE]

Yes, but as I said, they are very old books, and the rules in them made sense 1500-2000 years ago, but they don't now.
These Middle Eastern dictators only use religion to opress their people so they can hold on to control of their country. That could be done with Christianity as well, but Christianity is more dominant in rich areas with less political unrest that would make it possible for dictators or millitant governments to gain control of a country.

 

[Swedishguy]

I am convinced of the existence of the primordial consciousness , the manifestation of which is this universe . I view time as cyclic rather than linear . So Creation and Destruction are dynamic processes , happening in their entirety at some points in time , and happening continuously ( even though partially ) during the interim between these times . And humans are participating in this process , because their consciousness is qualitatively the same as the primordial one , only unmanifest .

Let me tell you all a couple of words.
HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT THE GREATEST OF ALL BEINGS. WE ARE NOT THE CENTRE OF EVERYTHING, ACCEPT IT OR JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT POINT.

I will return to the topic in the next post. Deja vu?

 

[oagersnap]

Let me tell you all a couple of words.
HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT THE GREATEST OF ALL BEINGS. WE ARE NOT THE CENTRE OF EVERYTHING, ACCEPT IT OR JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT POINT.

Did anyone say that? And if humans aren't the greatest of all beings, then who is?

 

[Swedishguy]

Did anyone say that? And if humans aren't the greatest of all beings, then who is?

1: Creationism belives that mankind is the highest standard of creatures.

2: None

 

[SecretKnowledge]

But those are merely the externals . What are the similarities in the core , the essence of religion ? If they're so similar , why have they been at loggerheads for so long , whereas India and China , both of who share similar religions , never had a religious war forever .

There has been absolutely no shortage of religious conflict within China throughout its history. Various Chinese monarchs persecuted Buddhists and Daoists very intensely at times even though in other cases they supported both religions. If any type of religion or philosophy grew to a level that it could threaten the Chinese political system the government frequently took action to eradicate it. "Barbarian" systems were viewed as an enemy of traditional ideas. The ancient, medieval, and Taiping rebellions were usually indivisibly religious and political.

Currently East Asia is filled with intense religious persecution. Both China and Vietnam engage in it and then there is the least religiously tolerant state in the world, North Korea. In Southeast Asia there is also Laos. Even in World War Two there was religious persecution by Japan.

There has never been a Chinese government that was neutral toward religion unless you count the Nationalists though even they often opposed indigenous religions. The establishment of the PRC has caused immense damage to China's culture.

It would be interesting to see a conversation between one of the ancient Chinese emperors and the current oligarchs. One would condemn the abandoment of native ideas in favor of a foreign ideology while the other would make accusations of "reactionary, unpatriotic, superstition".


Sri Lanka is an odd example of conflict. In that extremely bloody war suicide bombings, ethnic cleansings, and pointless attacks on temples occur. Both sides commit atrocities whenever the fighting renews. It is entirely possible for similar religious and ethnic groups to fight each with great ferocity.

 

[SecretKnowledge]

In Islam , there is no such distinction . If the Prophet , for example , said that you have to keep the beard and trim the moustache , then that's it , you have to do it , irrespective of whatever your personal opinion or face structure might be . ( The origin of this custom is revealing about what shaped the psyche of Mohammed . It is said that the Jews used to trim the moustache and keep the beard . In order to show himself and his followers as distinct from and the opposite of the Jews , he ordered Muslims to do the opposite . ) Rejecting even one little insignificant commandment means a rejection of the structure underlying the whole . That's one of the things that leads to the collapse of totalitarian ideologies - their own completeness is their downfall .

It is rather strange for non-Muslims to believe that the hadiths present a perfect, full picture of Mohammed. Historians who have studied this topic reject this unfounded idea. It resembles trying to argue in favor of pseudoscience. Increasing amounts of Muslims place less significance or even none at all on the hadiths. There are other forms of Islam such as Sufism that are much more compatible with modernity than Wahabism or Salafism. It is reasonable to believe that if more Islamic majority countries modernize what people find religously appealing will change as well.

It is also obvious that interpretations of religions can undergo significant changes that greatly alter the way a religion is practiced without leading to a collapse of the religion. There are many examples of this. It is noteable that Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism all exist without a collapse. A very extreme example would be the changes Mormonism has experienced. The texts have even changed on that religion yet it somehow remains able to grow. Many other religions have redefinied what exactly they constitute.

The "true" Islam is impossible to completely recreate since no one even knows exactly what it was in its developmental form.

 

[Smidlee]

Well, Katheryn is taking pains to show that the God of the OT is not the Christian God, so I don't know if it's considered fair to bring up the Flood.

But the new testment God is the same as the old testment. God deals the nation Isreal different than the church. For a example: Unlike a nation, a church has no business declaring war or building an army of it's own. (of course a christian can service his country.)

The Islamic God seems to be very similar to the OT God.

I wonder why? That like saying a counterfeit money looks like real money. This was why Muhammad and the Jews didn't get along. Also if you are trying to conquer people the NT isn't as helpful since it deals more to the individual than a nation.

The NT God seems to be different from both the God that Christians claim to worship today and the OT God. As well, Paul's description of God seems to be different from Jesus.

Paul was writing to the gentiles but he himself remain 100% Jew. He even continue to go to the temple.
God has a special plan for his people Isreal which Paul made very clear in Romans. Revelation goes back and deals with the judgement of God while the gospel deals with the grace of God

 

[Katheryn]

Go ahead . If they are happy in their delusion , I'd recommend you treat them as you would anybody else . My behaviour towards Muslims is the same as my behaviour towards anyone else , because they're genuinely unaware of the heresy they're falling into , and I have no wish to awaken them from their slumber . In their case , ignorance truly is bliss , so just let sleeping dogs lie . Trust me , when I look at one of the hottest girls in our college , her religion is the last thing on my mind .

But Aneeshm, how can they read the Koran, be taught from the Koran, "follow the Koran" and yet not understand - be "happy in their delusion'? How is this possible? They must know if that is the case.

Are you sure there isn't some teaching that came later, like in a Hadith, or as a sect, that changes the original message? A peaceful message that overrides the Koran?

 

[Katheryn]

while, Christianity, your religion, as every one knows, was "brain new" and never plagarized another one
Christians did even make the affront of telling the very people they copied their religion from that they were not doing it the right way and kept prosecuting them for centuries

Christianity accepted the Old Testament AS IS and didn't change it. Didn't twist the stories so that they were about Christians.

We didn't take the story of Moses and say, "Oh really, Moses didn't give the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but to the Arabs at THEIR mountain" Which is totally absurd.

And, all of the church was Jewish for many years.

The message was for them, Jesus was Jewish.

 

[Katheryn]

I guess I can sympathise. I mean, Christianity stole many of the concepts of Mithras, but I would say that it's quite dissimilar from the other Roman religions.

Again, the main difference between Christians and Muslims is that Christians feel that Paul is a reasonable authority on God. They build their foundation on this rock. Take Paul out of the equation, and it changes quite a bit.

Nonsense. The life and ministry of Jesus Christ - all of his attributes, his ministry, his purpose were first prophecied in the Old Testament.

The gospels would be the foundation, the teachings of Jesus himself.

Paul was the teacher to the Gentiles.