Christianity and Religion, a convert's perspective

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Stapel

I merely wrote it down this way, to provoke a reaction.
My 'conclusion' is based on the behaviour of public figures, not on a well-conducted scientifical investigation of large group of people.
Bush (christian) denying rigths to gays, the pope (christian) lying about the effects of condoms, the catholic church (a christian organisation) covering up child molesting acts, Pat Buchanan (christian) discriminating immigrants, this German CDU fella (christian) stating that jews are a 'Taetervolk'.

Your conclusion that the average Christian is immoral is based on the actions of a few (in fact, an admitted minority on your part) leaders?

Why don't you say that the average Muslim is an anti-American extremist then? After all, they'r e

Oh, wait, I know why. Because its not cool to dislike Islam.

Now wait a minute, I'm not understanding why you posted what you posted. You said that immoral and ignorant Christians are probably in the minority. Then why did you say that they are the average Christian? Just to "provoke a reaction"? What does that mean?

I interpret "provoke a reaction" as a flame, but that's just me.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Smidlee

man , that church sound bad. It's sad that most churches are dying and spliting up in USA . I very thankful for my church , it a real blessing but we also know if we don't watch out , we could lose what we have. there is still a few good churches that have the power of God on them. I love my Church and love MY Lord

my church is least of all churches in these matters, but it's still there. mine is the most solid church and there are some great people in there. yet it is still afflicted by the same thing that all churches are. i'll say this, I doubt there is any church in a better position that mine anywhere in the vacinity of where i live.

It's all well and good to be a part of a church, but certainly do not rely on that to fulfil your faith. it is social, and sometimes a good place for teaching, but that is all. may be a good place to grow in faith, but after a while you realise that it is not all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Smidlee]

Originally posted by bobgote

my church is least of all churches in these matters, but it's still there. mine is the most solid church and there are some great people in there. yet it is still afflicted by the same thing that all churches are. i'll say this, I doubt there is any church in a better position that mine anywhere in the vacinity of where i live.

It's all well and good to be a part of a church, but certainly do not rely on that to fulfil your faith. it is social, and sometimes a good place for teaching, but that is all. may be a good place to grow in faith, but after a while you realise that it is not all it's cracked up to be.

I gald to hear that you got a good church then . I found out just as the bible say in you reap what you sow . " ... he which sowth sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. " 2 Corinthians 9:6
this isn't just true in church but in everything you do in life. if you want more from your church you put more into it .

I was saved for 6 whole years before I even step into a church and that wasn't a picnic either . I wasn't raised in church so all the little i learn about Christ was thur the radio and his Spirit guiding me. I had to stand alone so my faith has been put to the test. Since I had noone to help me stand in faith I fall on my face many time as a christian in my school years . I hungryed for God after He saved me. when I got my car i went to church but I was very discouraged to find that church didn't know God even though they knew more Bible . I tried a few more and they wasn't any better. It was a few year latter when My sister got saved and ask me to come to church with her. At first i refused but finally went and Boy, I felt God in that place and found others who not only knew the Bible but also Knew God. I been going there 12 years now and I've grown spiritual so much . IT FEELS SO GOOD TO SHARE AND WORSHIP GOD TOGETHER . so you can probably understand why I so love my church since I was a lone christian for so many years without true fellowship with other believers.
I thankful God found me before some dead religion found me. ( I probably didn't type this well since I sometimes get so excited I have trouble type what I want to say )

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by bobgote
Let's just say that I'm very disillusioned with the church. Even my church which encourages free thought and is dominated by youth still has many of the older folk with traditional doctrine that just doesn't align with what the bible really says. Many times the actions are good but the motives behind them are selfish and petty, such as in your story. (and in the end even the actions turned bad). many times it is said that christians need the church. I fully believe that. It shows us how NOT to be.

You sound rather like my wife. I am still in the denomination I was raised in. This is a matter of choice, since I like some of its more unique dotrinal beliefs, but also a matter of decision. I decided years ago that I was going to find my way where I found myself, rather than expecting to find a better path.

My wife has strong diffeences with her birth church, and has been several things through the years, some as far apart as Catholic and Church of Christ. She has even been Mormon. Now she attends where I have been going for some time. I think one reason is that she decided to tolerate what she does not like in order to appreciate what she needs. In the end she is much too intelligent to take any church straight, without questions. By accepting that no church is perfect, she has been able to value what is good about the one she is in. It doesnt hurt that she respects the minister though.

Originally posted by Smidlee
have you ever study the bible ?

Some. I do not claim to be a scholar.

Originally posted by Smidlee
Jacob and Esau was brothers but God said " Jacab have I loved ,But Esau have I hated ". ( Mal 1:2,3 Romans 9:13) Just because both was the sons of Isaac didn't mean both was right with God. Just as Jacob and Esau was opposides so is Christianity and Muslims are opposides . Any true christian and true muslim knows this . According to the Bible Muhammad is a anti- Christ ( not anti-Jesus for they saw him as a good person) because he deny Jesus as Christ (God)and according to the ko-ran( not sure about spelling) christians are blasphemers for claiming Jesus is Christ( God in flesh).

God didn't say Mal1:2 until Jacob and Esau became nations when you can see a big difference between the two.

You prove my point. Rivalries among families are often the worst, as in Jacob and Esau. It appears we are saying the same thing, with different perspectives.

It is very true that Christians do not believe Muslims are saved, because they reject the necessity both the a Saviour who comes to die, and the ressurection. With Jews it depends on who is discussing the question. Suffice to say that no Jew can read their Bible, ie the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets, the way a Christian does and remain respectable in Jewish circles, at least in my experience.

Still the similarities are more pronounced that the differences, when compared to, say, Hindu or Taoist beliefs. The concept of "God" is almost Identical, for example, among Jews, Christians and Muslims. A Hindu would have trouble grasping the full implications of the word, since to them god is much a more fragmented concept. Hence I say Jews, Christians and Muslims are cousins. Feuding cousins to be sure, but still family.

J

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Smidlee

I gald to hear that you got a good church then . I found out just as the bible say in you reap what you sow . " ... he which sowth sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. " 2 Corinthians 9:6
this isn't just true in church but in everything you do in life. if you want more from your church you put more into it .

dunno if you know my story, but i've been in a different state from my church for this year. while a regular there, i did stand up and do the communion thing a few times. i'm more involved in the youth group (or at least will be when i return in about 2 weeks)

I was saved for 6 whole years before I even step into a church and that wasn't a picnic either . I wasn't raised in church so all the little i learn about Christ was thur the radio and his Spirit guiding me. I had to stand alone so my faith has been put to the test. Since I had noone to help me stand in faith I fall on my face many time as a christian in my school years . I hungryed for God after He saved me. when I got my car i went to church but I was very discouraged to find that church didn't know God even though they knew more Bible . I tried a few more and they wasn't any better. It was a few year latter when My sister got saved and ask me to come to church with her. At first i refused but finally went and Boy, I felt God in that place and found others who not only knew the Bible but also Knew God. I been going there 12 years now and I've grown spiritual so much . IT FEELS SO GOOD TO SHARE AND WORSHIP GOD TOGETHER . so you can probably understand why I so love my church since I was a lone christian for so many years without true fellowship with other believers.
I thankful God found me before some dead religion found me. ( I probably didn't type this well since I sometimes get so excited I have trouble type what I want to say )

I found a similar thing with the lifelessness when looking for a church around here. i gave up, knowing that i'd be heading back before long. and without descending in to vomit inducing mushiness, it's a good thing you still have such enthusiasm for your church. I may be jaded about church but my faith is not affected by this. Don't get me wrong, I love the people there, but some of the stuff that goes on with people you looked up to growing up does make you think twice. Anyway we'll see how it goes when i move back, everything might fall back into place when i get back to normal, although i think that my eyes have been opened. normal will have been redefined.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
You sound rather like my wife. I am still in the denomination I was raised in. This is a matter of choice, since I like some of its more unique dotrinal beliefs, but also a matter of decision. I decided years ago that I was going to find my way where I found myself, rather than expecting to find a better path.

My wife has strong diffeences with her birth church, and has been several things through the years, some as far apart as Catholic and Church of Christ. She has even been Mormon. Now she attends where I have been going for some time. I think one reason is that she decided to tolerate what she does not like in order to appreciate what she needs. In the end she is much too intelligent to take any church straight, without questions. By accepting that no church is perfect, she has been able to value what is good about the one she is in. It doesnt hurt that she respects the minister though.

My pastor is a great man. I love him like a father and have great respect for him. I'm going to a pentecostal church btw. I know that this is the church for me, as I said before, they are like a family to me. It's just the hypocrisy i see. I know I still hold ideals closely, i'm like that with everything. Maybe I just expect too much of other people (especially christians).

 

[Packer-Backer]

I saw someone on the first page call the Christian style argument is just confusing the heck out of people. This is the kind of thread that gets my banned so I'll just say one thing: How many born-again Christians do you see stealing, murdering, or being indecent? And then how many atheists do you see stealing, murdering, and being indecent? Even if you don't believe God and God's love is all around you right now, you must admit the Judeo-Christian ethic is right: to help the needy and love your fellow man. And what do some other religions say?: Women are mindless drones, kill people outside your "superior" race, and worship an adulterous, lieing god.

Don't expect me to respond because this might lead to a fierce argument and banning.

BTW: Here is one story of a true change of heart. My aunt and uncle seemed to somewhat selfish until my brother died and soon they started returning to church and now are the most moralistic of the family. If you knew them before and after you would be shocked, take my word for it.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
I saw someone on the first page call the Christian style argument is just confusing the heck out of people. This is the kind of thread that gets my banned so I'll just say one thing: How many born-again Christians do you see stealing, murdering, or being indecent? And then how many atheists do you see stealing, murdering, and being indecent? Even if you don't believe God and God's love is all around you right now, you must admit the Judeo-Christian ethic is right: to help the needy and love your fellow man. And what do some other religions say?: Women are mindless drones, kill people outside your "superior" race, and worship an adulterous, lieing god.

Don't expect me to respond because this might lead to a fierce argument and banning.

define "born again" though. isn't bush supposed to be born again? (but lets not get into the bush thing again...) we've already had the definition of a christian bit, so lets get past this.

and don't go making outrageous statements if you aren't going to respond to the replies.

 

[Packer-Backer]

All right, one response because you aren't being a jerk. I just wanted to say a few things and get out of here without a ban. Born-again I guess would mean not Catholic, trully believing that Jesus was the son of god and that he died and rose from the dead. Just look at what the Bible says and what other religions' teachings say. Also about the Bush thing, I think he is a Christian that is a little bit confused, some former, actual witches that are now Christians say they see signs of witchcraft in Bush. I don't understand how they see it but I've never been a wizard, so only those who know Bush closely can say. Also I have seen a number of conversions and changes of heart in my life so far and without going to huge details about each convert's life, just take my word for it that I have seen signs of God in the hard times of my life and others' lives.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
All right, one response because you aren't being a jerk. I just wanted to say a few things and get out of here without a ban. Born-again I guess would mean not Catholic, trully believing that Jesus was the son of god and that he died and rose from the dead. Just look at what the Bible says and what other religions' teachings say. Also about the Bush thing, I think he is a Christian that is a little bit confused, some former, actual witches that are now Christians say they see signs of witchcraft in Bush. I don't understand how they see it but I've never been a wizard, so only those who know Bush closely can say. Also I have seen a number of conversions and changes of heart in my life so far and without going to huge details about each convert's life, just take my word for it that I have seen signs of God in the hard times of my life and others' lives.

not everything has to end with arguments and a ban. as long as you're reasonable in what you say, you're likely to stimulate good debate, rather than just get flamed to death.

If you look through this thread, you can see that the general consensus is those christians who actually know what they're on about, those who actually make an effort to live the way they believe they're supposed to, are generally looked upon well. It's those that appear christian in name only and think they are superior because of their "beliefs" who give christians a bad name. I think people on both christian and non-christian sides of the fence can agree on that.

 

[Packer-Backer]

One more theory of mine is why Christians are sometimes considered "intolerant". Christians have very, very, very firm beliefs and so most atheists don't know what they believe and what to believe therefore decide not to say anything about other religions because they don't know if they are good or bad. But when Christians, who know the truth, try to preach and say they have the answers, are sometimes considered unenlightened, intolerant, or close-minded. Also the hatred of Christianity proves that they know, deep inside themselves that it is the truth and when you don't believe the truth the Prince of Lies makes you hate it.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
How many born-again Christians do you see stealing, murdering, or being indecent? And then how many atheists do you see stealing, murdering, and being indecent? Even if you don't believe God and God's love is all around you right now, you must admit the Judeo-Christian ethic is right: to help the needy and love your fellow man. And what do some other religions say?: Women are mindless drones, kill people outside your "superior" race, and worship an adulterous, lieing god.

I guess you didn't see my previous post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1421548#post1421548

In fact, no one would dare to respond to that because they know that I didn't just make that up (and probably because they know that it's just a tip of the iceberg). The Christian God had truely done far worst crime than stealing, murdering, and being indecent! And the proof is in the Holy Bible. Like father like son, I truely believe that God did in fact create human in his image.

However, I think you are right! Born-again Christian usually have better human quality than the average (mostly because they are trying harder to please God; I knew that well becuase I'm used to be one of them).

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Moonsinger



Anyway, here is one of those story that I'm having trouble to comprehend:

Exodus 12:29-30
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

What kind of God would be willing to kill innocent children just because he is angry at their parents? Then later on, he ordered Aaron to build an army to kill all Palestinians (children and women including their unborn childs) just because he had made a promise to their ancestor long ago.

No offend, but if God let me have his power, I think I can do better. (1) I would not kill innocent children. (2) I would use my power to give the Palestinians some place they can call home; I could easily use my power to convert desert into grassland or I could terraform another planet and move them there. There was absolutely no need to slaughter them senselessly (especially those innocent children and the unborn because they are no more sins than anyone else).

I really have a tough time to worship a God like that. Unless he shows up and apologizes or at least explain why he did what he did, he doesn't deserve my respect. And I can't really worship someone who I don't respect.

There are few on the forums for which I have more respect than you, Moonsinger, but you are here taking one thing out of the Bible and trying to intrepret it based on the wisdom and logic of mankind rather than from the perspective of God. Of course, it makes no sense that God would behave in this way if we judge it on our terms. To understand this passage you must strive to understand the message of the Bible with an open mind that the Bible may indeed be the inspired message of God to men. This means that you must be open to the possibility that divine inspiration may exist, that God may exist outside our reality, and that understanding of God's message may only be obtained with his help, through the inspiration of the holy spirit.

In other words, you must seek God to find him and to seek him you must be willing to suspend your belief in all that you know to be true. It is not easy to accept the plausibility that all we perceive is false, but truely, this is the first step to finding God.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
There are few on the forums for which I have more respect than you, Moonsinger, but you are here taking one thing out of the Bible and trying to intrepret it based on the wisdom and logic of mankind rather than from the perspective of God. Of course, it makes no sense that God would behave in this way if we judge it on our terms. To understand this passage you must strive to understand the message of the Bible with an open mind that the Bible may indeed be the inspired message of God to men. This means that you must be open to the possibility that divine inspiration may exist, that God may exist outside our reality, and that understanding of God's message may only be obtained with his help, through the inspiration of the holy spirit.

You are spoken like a true believer. I have heard that voice many times before because it was really my own voice that I heard. Sadly, that voice has never answered any question. We are not talking about just one thing out of the Bible here; more than half of the Bible were in disagreement with the Christian perspective and the other half of the Bible were written by people who were deeply in love with God. In fact, I have no problem with the Christian philosophy/moral value, but I have a big problem with the Bible.

In other words, you must seek God to find him and to seek him you must be willing to suspend your belief in all that you know to be true. It is not easy to accept the plausibility that all we perceive is false, but truely, this is the first step to finding God.

No offense, but I think that's kind of copping out on the issue. I have been asking God these questions for more than 20 years already and yet there are no answer. I have never seen him neither. Didn't he promise that "ask and you shall receive"? Eventually, I realize that the answer may already been written in the Bible all along. If I accept the Bible, I must reject the "Christian" God. If I accept God, I must reject the Bible because it's the word of mans who didn't really understand what were going on. One way or another, but not both. Therefore, I just don't understand why every Christians are talking like they had meet God this morning in person or they just had dinner with him yesterday or something.

 

[Pikachu]

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
How many born-again Christians do you see stealing, murdering, or being indecent? And then how many atheists do you see stealing, murdering, and being indecent?

Do you have any statistics on this matter? I guess Atheists could be insulted by this statement, so you better have something to back up your claims.

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
Even if you don't believe God and God's love is all around you right now, you must admit the Judeo-Christian ethic is right: to help the needy and love your fellow man. And what do some other religions say?: Women are mindless drones, kill people outside your "superior" race, and worship an adulterous, lieing god.

This seems to be an arrogant and ignorant attitude. Which other religions are you referring to here, and how do you know what they are telling?

To understand what an unfamiliar religion really is about, you have to study it quite a lot and you have to spend a lot of time together with people of that religion. I apologize if you already have done that, but I fear that you just have studied other religions superficially with the sole intend of finding flaws with them.

People who do the same with Christianity will find plenty of stories in the bible that can be interpreted as telling women are mindless drones, kill people outside your "superior" race, and worship an adulterous, lieing God. This is of course not what Christianity is about, and we both know how annoying it is when people say this about Christianity. I don't think we should lower our selves to the same level and say such things about other religions.

 

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by Packer-Backer
One more theory of mine is why Christians are sometimes considered "intolerant". Christians have very, very, very firm beliefs and so most atheists don't know what they believe and what to believe therefore decide not to say anything about other religions because they don't know if they are good or bad. But when Christians, who know the truth, try to preach and say they have the answers, are sometimes considered unenlightened, intolerant, or close-minded. Also the hatred of Christianity proves that they know, deep inside themselves that it is the truth and when you don't believe the truth the Prince of Lies makes you hate it.

PB, you astonish me every time anew! 'atheists don't know what they believe'

Most know very well, and that is because they used their brains to find things to believe in, not he words of some book or other they simply soak up in total disregard of their intelligence.

'Christians, who know the truth..' - so you make an a prioi assupmtion here, base all your argumentation on it, then cry foul when someone else doesn't accept that assupmtion....
well, I'd say that is intolerant.

An I know not a single atheist whpo hates Christians but for the pompous a**es that preach about the bible but screw their own daughters. Real Christians are usually well received because they use their brains and do not try to oppress the free will oif others. Though, from your posts, I know you do not belong in that category. You know he words and the motions, but not the heart of the message of Jesus from Nazaret.

 

[Smidlee]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


You are spoken like a true believer. I have heard that voice many times before because it was really my own voice that I heard. Sadly, that voice has never answered any question. We are not talking about just one thing out of the Bible here; more than half of the Bible were in disagreement with the Christian perspective and the other half of the Bible were written by people who were deeply in love with God. In fact, I have no problem with the Christian philosophy/moral value, but I have a big problem with the Bible.

Your problem is the same with all of us : we all have heart trouble. Since God created life He has the right to judge and take life. the only different between the Old testament and the New as far as the law goes is in the old testament Isreal was the be God's witness to the world as a NATION. but in the new testament the church had to do the opposide and go thoughtout the whole world . This would mean the church would be in different nations (instead of one) with different culture and laws. So this is where separation of church and state comes in . State represents the Justice of God while the Church represents the mercy and Grace of God.

Man has the hardest time to put both Mercy/grace and Justice/judgement together. God must judge but Yet He is mercyful at the same time . if you try to use the laws of the church in the courtroom then you have too soft judges who let murders go which leads to corruption . if you try to inforce the government laws ( alot of them is in the old testament) into the church then you have the same results we got in the Dark ages, churches with armies/assassins/witch-hunters/ terrorist killing people.

remember in Exodus anyone who had the blood of a lamb on the door post ,death would pass over them both egyptian and hebrew( God's mercy ) but if they refuse God mercy then They got the death sentence ( God's justice)

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by cgannon64


Your conclusion that the average Christian is immoral is based on the actions of a few (in fact, an admitted minority on your part) leaders?

As I said, I didn't conduct a full investigation. But you are right. It isn't fair to judge the average christian on the rather noisy bullsiht of a few Christian leaders.

I perfectly understand that you, Bobgote, Luiz and others are far from these types.

Why don't you say that the average Muslim is an anti-American extremist then? After all, they'r e

Oh, wait, I know why. Because its not cool to dislike Islam.

Don't worry: I do that a lot in RL! I live in a 60% muslim neighbourhood. I know enough about their culture, to not like in a general way. But that doesn't stop me from having a good relationship with my Arab neighbour. In the 'veil-thread', following a recent discussion in Germany, you can read more about my vision on muslim culture.

Now wait a minute, I'm not understanding why you posted what you posted. You said that immoral and ignorant Christians are probably in the minority. Then why did you say that they are the average Christian? Just to "provoke a reaction"? What does that mean?

In a mathematical way: What I see is not one single atheist politician or other public figure, advocating immoral views (today, in our free western world). But I do whitness christians (or people claiming to be christians) and muslims advocating really nasty imorral stuff! A lot! A real lot! I can whitness this every single day!

I interpret "provoke a reaction" as a flame, but that's just me.

I am sorry about that. It missed its goal. The only ones that react are people that use religion in a good way.

What bothers me the most: Many christians think they are better persons (with better morals) than non-christians, because of being a christian.

That is just a load of crap. It annoys the hell out of me (as you can conclude form this tread). I am affraid a majority of christians think they have better morals.

 

[HannibalBarka]

I think that being or not a good person does have a connection to having or not a religion (whatever it is) the same way it does to eating or not eating potatoes.

 

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by HannibalBarka
I think that being or not a good person does have a connection to having or not a religion (whatever it is) the same way it does to eating or not eating potatoes.

didn't you know that French... erh, Freedom Fries make you homicidal?????