chu ko nu most under-rated unit in the game?

[GKey]

When I go to war I care to have Feudalism, to capitulate my victim rather then destroy it (on deity), so chances are, I will have Feudalism earlier then Machinery.

Here, take a look:

Odds with chocks:

Spoiler :

Now odds with cat's:

Spoiler :

16.9% versus 4.32%! Looks good?

But try this save and you see: chances that 4 cats + 5 swords (400 ) will capture this city are better then these of 7 Chocks (420 )!

Not to mention that catapults can bombard this city prior attacking it and swords + cats are available earlier then chocks, and don't need sophisticated strategies, like avoiding Fishing for GS machinery bulb or milking GE for same purpose.

Cho-ko-nu is a nice unit, but just like Cataphract, looks better then it actually is.

On defense: Versus melee attacker Longbow 50 on hill have same odds as Cho-ko-nu 60. Versus Mounted: Pikeman is better, but again costs 60 and is available later. When AI attack your city in pikeman era, it brings siege, so you need more defenders and hammer wise Longbows are the best.
Not to mention, on defense Chocks are not any better then regular crossbow, 1 first strike vs 2 - not a big deal.

 

[Doshin]

Mixed stacks of crossbows and pikes are better for defense than plain longbows.

If I have iron available, I see no reason to build regular longbows. Even if you arent teching / bulbing machinery + engineering yourself, they are both very reliable tech steals on higher difficulties.

Only reason to build longbows is when you lack iron / machinery / engineering, but have feudalism.

A Longbowman fortified in a hill city has a base strength of 12 with one first strike. A Crossbowman fortified in a hill city has a base strength of 9 with one first strike. Longbows cost 50 . Crossbows cost 60 . Therefore, you should build more Longbows.

Out in the open field, Crossbows and Pikes provide better stack defense, but when defending a city, the AI will open their attack with siege. This negates the Crossbows' bonus versus melee units, because they get messed up from the initial Catapult/Treb. attack.

 

[bhavv]

But you are going to be attacked by either melee or mounted units, so you also need to add on the extra defensive bonus of crossbows / pikes.

Crossbows defend better against melee, Pikes defend better against mounted, so if I have access to building all three, I dont see why I should bother with Longbows.

Siege units negate anything defending a city before machine guns anyway.

 

[Doshin]

I don't have access to Civ right now, but Crossbows are no better than Longbows in a hill city when it comes to Melee units (which is where, I hope, you'd choose to make your stand):

Crossbowman: 6/1/60, 1 First Strike; +50% vs. Melee Units
Longbowman: 6/1/50, 1 First Strike; +25% city defense; +25% hills defense

Regarding siege (and ignoring promotions for the sake of simplicity) a Trebuchet has the following stats:

Trebuchet: 4/1/80, +100% city attack

So, let's say that the Treb is again attacking one of your hill cities. The terrain gives an automatic +25% bonus to defenders, while fortifiying a unit for 5 turns gives a further +25% . This leaves us with:

Trebuchet vs. Crossbow = 8 vs. 9
Trebuchet vs. Longbow = 8 vs. 12

The strength difference between an Xbow and Longbow might not sound like a lot, but it is basically equivalent to upgrading an Axe to a Macemen (5 --> 8).

If you promote your Longbows to Drill IV, they will also receive 4-7 "free" rounds in which the Treb will often be killed outright due to the strength difference. This allows the Longbow to continue fighting and picking up more experience without getting hurt (= better promotions). If you defend well and promote along the CG, Guerilla, and Combat lines, you will soon have access to a city defender that outdoes a regular Infantry unit in the same job.

Drill IV Longbows are, however, exposed to Knights and Cuirassiers. In these cases you definitely need Pikes, Elephants, or (best of all) the much maligned Ballista Elephant.

 

[GKey]

^^ And as a conclusion - best city defender - longbow due to its lowest cost. Crossbows are good for defending stucks in open. And Chock's are just same as regular crossbows.

 

[bhavv]

Yes if a city is on a hill longbows are better.

But if its on a flat tile they are not if you are being attacked by melee units.

Maybe mix in all three then, longbows to defend against siege, then some crossbows to defend against melee attackers, and pikes for mounted units.

And Chock's are just same as regular crossbows.

Im sure the extra first strike makes them better than regular xbows for city defense too. Also another thing you can do with choks - if you are attacked by a large sod with lots of siege units, but you have enough choks, attack the stack with them. You will significantly weaken the stack, and drill promoted choks have a much better survival rate for this than regular catapults.

 

[GKey]

Nope, I would use 50 catapult for suicidal mission rater then Chock, and it is suicide, cuz no way melee unit will defend vs Cho-Ko-Nu.

 

[reddishrecue]

Choks will be good vs. stacks for sure but not that good vs. mounted.

 

[bhavv]

If the 10 hammer difference is so significant to you, you can still mix choks with catapults. I've played many chok and regular Xbow rushes and the strategy has always been absurdly strong compared to other comparable rushes.

Defense isnt really the reason for them anyway, its all about offense. You push into enemy cities with Xbows + Trebs, or with China just Choks and start the rush a lot faster. Pro leaders that start without fishing get a very strong advantage with this - Xbows + Trebs in the BCs, free promotions, plus they can quickly throw up a walls + castle on top of their stacks of Xbows in newly captured cities making them very difficult to retake.

The hidden advantage of xbow / chok rushing is how difficult it is to fight back against it. When properly pulled off with xbows / choks, trebs and pikes with a pro leader whipping walls + castles in captured cities.

Horse Archers only shine in single player because they are an exploit of the AIs weakness with building very few spearmen. And once the AI had longbows, you need to bring siege with every rush negating the benefit of mounted units. If playing in multiplayer, HA rushes would be significantly weaker as human players know how to counter them with spears.

However I dont prefer using Qin for this strategy anymore, the only bonus he really gets for offense is faster Oracle. I much prefer using Gilgamesh for the half price libraries and cheaper / earlier Ziggurats, which means I can skip CoL and got straight for bulbing Machinery + Engineering.

 

[Iranon]

I used to overrate CKN for a long time.

Yes, they have many distinct benefits (counter unit, adequate defense, collateral that also affects siege, high first strikes to exploit that collateral; all in a single package ).
However, games in which they would be vastly preferable to Praetorians are rare; even more so if we don't assume default traits.

 

[bhavv]

Compared to praets, almost every other UU can be considered junk.

I don't think anyone is saying they are preferable to preats, simply that they are still strong and usable.

Overrating them would be thinking they are in the same league as praets, immortals or quechas. Though they are not, that doesn't make them weak.

When properly bulbed, Xbow + treb or Chok rushes have one the largest windows of opportunities in the game. You can get them while the AI is still defending with archers, and they can be used on offense all the way up to gunpowder units.

 

[AdamCrock]

Ever played RPG game and use X-bow ? I was always wondering what it would do if I use it as auto-reloading weapon .... Now I know ^^ 3 words Chu Ko Nu ^^

 

[jarhead_leif]

I always think of chukonu's as gatling peas in PvZ.

 

[Doshin]

A final small point of note: Cho-Ko-Nus inflict less collateral damage than is to be expected, because their strength is halved for this purpose. That is, a Catapult will inflict collateral damage based upon their full strength (5, plus any Barrage promotions) whereas a Cho-Ko-Nu will always have an adjusted strength of 3 (.5 * 6) when figuring collateral damage.

The bonus, then, is nice but not game-breaking. Xbow rushes can be good, and Cho-Ko-Nus are better than Xbows, but the rush gets absolutely mullered as soon as the AI hits Longbows (unless that AI's back has already been broken). Suiciding Catapults against Longbows inflicts enough damage to allow your other units to win their battles. Suiciding Cho-Ko-Nus is more expensive and causes less hurt.

 

[AdamCrock]

Gattling Gun at middle age ...... ......

Tho there are spears that can do this .....

^^

 

[bhavv]

A final small point of note: Cho-Ko-Nus inflict less collateral damage than is to be expected, because their strength is halved for this purpose. That is, a Catapult will inflict collateral damage based upon their full strength (5, plus any Barrage promotions) whereas a Cho-Ko-Nu will always have an adjusted strength of 3 (.5 * 6) when figuring collateral damage.

Where are you getting this information from? Regarding collateral damage the documented in game feature seems to be the max collateral damage dealt, and Choks can deal up to 60% max collateral while catapults and trebs only have a max of 50%.

There is also absolutely no logical reason why you only have to attacks with Choks and nothing else, the only reason why this is done is that you can get choks faster than either catapults or trebs, but after bulbing Machinery those two siege units arent going to be very far off.

People over rate catapults too much, why would I use those when I can bulb Engineering the turn after Constuction has been researched? Trebs are better for attacking cities, choks are much better in the field.

A stack of choks + trebs + pikes is doable at around 500 BC, just choks is much earlier with oracling metal casting and bulbing Machinery. You dont need to wait for construction / engineering to begin. However after you do have trebs, theres no reason you shouldnt also be mixing those into your stack as well as pikes.

Also when you attack cities with trebs + choks, after the trebs have dealt there normal maximum 50% collateral, chocks will then add a further 10% collateral damage to the remaining units. Extra first strike, strong defense for captured cities, collateral, and more collateral that normally isnt available until cannons. If anything people are vastly under rating these units as the thread title suggests, and some peoples posts here do confirm that assumption.

Nope, I would use 50 catapult for suicidal mission rater then Chock, and it is suicide, cuz no way melee unit will defend vs Cho-Ko-Nu.

Going back to this - you can get choks much faster than catapults. With a GS before construction, with a GE if you get lucky, before anything else. If you want to gamble, toss up the Oracle and whip a Forge in your capital and work the engineer slot. However getting a great priest instead will royally screw up your bulb that I no longer like building the Oracle for that reason. Metal Casting followed by machinery and engineering bulbs are the only reason I still bother with trying for the oracle, but I will make sure to have libraries built in two other cities to make GSs first instead. With Qin though, if you get lucky and have stone you can also get the Pyramids thrown in on top as well which will more often than not get you a GE to bulb machinery, and then you can get a GS for Engineering in another city.

Also if you do get the mids with Qin - You have access to police state plus half price forges. Choks now cost 30 each.

 

[noto2]

underrated? No. They are one of the most game-breaking units in the whole game. I rate them in the top tier, easily just as good as the praetorian. Sure, they can be rushed, and if you are fighting classic age units, it's a slaughter, but they are still ridiculously powerful even at tech parity. You certainly don't need to rush them, they can wipe the floor with medieval units. The first unit that can give them trouble is either a musket or a knight, and you can get them long before those things show up. Although I do agree that if you're attacking castles you'll need to bring trebs along as well.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I always think of chukonu's as gatling peas in PvZ.

Haha!

I enjoy this analogy.

 

[bhavv]

Try do do the following with Qin -

- Look for a start with Stone and where you dont need any additional worker techs than the ones you start with (Agri + Mining is a fantastic starting combo, though you may need the wheel to hook up your stone).

- Dont research fishing. Dont play a seafood start.

- Open with teching masonry + BW and building a worker + warrior as usual.

- Hopefully you have copper for early barb defense, if not then get Archery.

- Connect the stone, and switch to building the mids

- Chop out a minimum of 2 settlers and additional workers as needed

- Place first city in a good production site with a chance of building the oracle

- Tech towards Priesthood after BW, then Pottery + Writing.

- Oracle in second city, grab metal casting, whip a forge along with the Mids in your capital and work the engineer. (If you get beaten to Oracle then just research MC yourself and be slowed down quite a bit).

- Have third city settled where it can support 2 scientists, chop a library and outpace your Oracle cities GPPs.

- Bulb Machinery with your GE, and then later on Engineering with your GS.

Run police state + industrious forges for +50% towards units.

But then if you dont have iron, boo hoo

Start rushing the AI as soon as you have iron + machinery, they will only have archers, axes, spears, swords and rarely HAs at this point (add a couple of spearmen to your stack for HA defense if you want).

 

[GKey]

Don't get me wrong, I think CKN is a very nice unit. No idea why OP have found it underrated. I've seen enough threads here focusing on X-Bow rush strategies to decide to try it myself. And I did with success. Just... May be I do something wrong, but I've found X-Bow rushes far less efficient then I expected.

City capture unit? Mediocre at best. Did you check the save I posted? 400 5 swords + 4 catapults do job better then 420 7 Cho-Ko-Nus.

City defending unit? It should be! But here comes AI's Horse Archer and eats my Drill 3 CKN with ease. I've found myself thinking that 2 archers 70 would do job better then single 60 CKN.

Stuck defender? YES! Very good versus melee or crossbows. Longbow could be not bad too for same purpose. Best versus melee on flat tile - that's for sure.

The best thing about CKN its versatility. It's bit of everything, so you can focus your cities on building them nonstop, making gameplay easier. Just there almost always exist good candidate, that could do the same thing, while cost you less!

Also add to this some sentiments. When I make catapult I know I am making suiciding unit and throw it at city defenders/big stucks with out regret. When I make CKN I hope it will get Drill IV and own everyone without been scratched! And then I am getting frustrated watching my precious Drill 3/4 CKN drop like flies versus anything but melee. Drill shines when you facing unit that is already weaker then yours!, means melee units. Just to kill this sword/axe/mace you need first deal with archers/Ha's/catapults and lose LOTs of units.

That was my experience, but once again, may be I just do it wrong and would like to see a test game with more optimal approach.