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Citizen initiative poll: Should justices be allowed to rule on cases directly affect

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game: Polls' started by donsig, Mar 27, 2006.

?

Should a justice be able to make rulings in cases that affect him or her?

Poll closed Mar 31, 2006.
  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  2. No

    20 vote(s)
    74.1%
  3. Abstain

    5 vote(s)
    18.5%
  1. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I must say Donsig, that it would be easier to take your words professionally if you argued the laws by following them. It explicitly states:

    Your poll does not explicitly concern another citizen, therefore by law must be public. (Lol, I almost said should too). By law you have made your own poll illegal. If you honestly wish to make your concerns legitimate please follow the letter of the law. You also might get other citizens to take you more seriously if you did.
     
  2. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    But this is not an official poll. Official polls are those polls posted by officials acting in the capacity of the office they hold. I am only a citizen, therefore my polls cannot be official. They can however, be binding. There is a legal difference (according to our laws) between official and binding just as (according to our laws) the word vacant has a very narrow meaning.

    Also, I believe the law says that polls about individuals must be private. No where does it say that polls not about individuals must be public. It is my contention that since our laws do not prohibit private polls, our censor cannot take it upon himself to do so.
     
  3. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    :hmm: I'm not so sure about this. By declaring this poll an Initiative are you not in effect making it official? From what I could find in our CoL an Initiative is considered 'delegations of the Power of the People', but does this in effect make it official?

    That's more for you rules lawyers to figure out. ;)
     
  4. Swissempire

    Swissempire Poet Jester

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    Due to the arguements of Daveshack, i have desided to Take my really big red stamp and slam it home:
    INVALID
     
  5. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    An official poll is one posted by an official acting in the capacity of the office held. Citizen initiatives are dictinct from official polls. In reading the duties of the censor I see nothing that empowers him (or her) to make any decisions whatsoever on citizen initiatives. The censor's duties are confined to validating elections and other official polls. So, not only can the censor take his big red stamp and stuff it, I would point out that any procedures the censor establishes concerning citizen initiatives are without legal foundation and therefore invalid.
     
  6. Swissempire

    Swissempire Poet Jester

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    Yay, another JR. Where is this definition of offical polls?
     
  7. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I was thinking about this at work last night and was curious as to the actual definitions of the words ‘binding’ and ‘official’. According to Merriam-Webster Online we get this:

    Reasoning: You’ll recall another discussion that was had recently regarding the word ‘should’ in the CoL. According to the debate the word 'should' shall be used with its meaning as written or defined, not by how it is interpreted. In that case than we should read the Polling instructions as written in our CoL and not how we interpret them. In other words a citizens initiative poll, which is binding, shall not be considered as official since Donsig is not an official himself.

    In that case Donsig is correct in that both of his polls are not official polls as stated under our CoL. Since they are not official polls than the Censor (Swiss) cannot make the poll invalid. Donsig is not an official, and is not creating an official poll, therefore he is in the right to post this poll and Swiss is in the wrong by making it invalid.

    In other words, both polls are still legal and must be allowed to continue.

    Please note: I did not 'copy/paste' the entire definition of both words. Only the parts I felt mattered. Please review the definitions on your own in case I have missed something of importance to this discussion.
     
  8. Tubby Rower

    Tubby Rower Chronic Slacker

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    well using your own arguement.. definition one would pertain here since this poll is relating to an office. So this poll is still invalid IMO.
     
  9. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Thought I'd been over this already.

    The Censor regulates the assembly. Initiative polls are passed by the assembly. Therefore the Censor regulates Initiatives.
     
  10. Swissempire

    Swissempire Poet Jester

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    Do you guys know what time it is. IT'S TIME FOR A JUDICAL REVIEW
     
  11. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Closest I can find is in the Constitution itself, where the decision types are defined:

    Should be an interesting JR to start Term 4 with.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    The most interesting part is that if Donsig wins, he must recuse himself from the case, since as the originator of the polls in question he's directly affected by the outcome. :lol:
     
  13. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    ....and if he doesn't? Hoo BOY! :coffee:

    :nuke: :devil: :nospam: [pissed] :scared: :bounce: :nuke:
     
  14. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Looking over our CoL nowhere in the powers and duties of the Censor did I find anything that states the Censor is in charge of Initiatives. For reference I’ll quote them:

    Once again, it states official polls, not all polls. This is a word choice we may wish to discuss defining more.

    Also note that in Ravensfire’s post #51 he/she quotes the Referendum and Initiative statements and I would like you all to notice the difference in their wording. Referendum explicitly states 'official, binding' whereas Initiative only states 'binding'. IMO that lack of the word ‘official’ removes Swiss’s authority over these polls.

    One thing I’m curious about is the Censor’s procedures as he/she states. According to the CoL it can be read that the Censor does not have authority over a citizens initiative as it is not an official poll. What about when the Censor explicitly states in his procedures:

    He has taken it upon him/herself to state that Initiatives are considered official in the above statement. Does this make it official? Since the Censor is considered a lower form of law can it be considered official?

    BTW, I’m not siding with Donsig. I’m merely enjoying discussing our laws and how they are written. To me this is fun. I just hope I’m presenting a respectable case.
     
  15. Swissempire

    Swissempire Poet Jester

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    See, Thso procedures were made WAY back in octavians* day, maybe even Alphawolf's*, can't remember. What it did cause was a brainblast.

    An Official Poll is a poll that has been validated and holds the weight of law. As per the Censors procedures " official poll with the weight of an Initiative or Referendum"

    That explains everything. D'oh, how could i forget:eek:

    See its not an Official's or Officials Poll, its an Official one, like one that is recognized by law. :crazyeye:

    *The 2 Censors of this demogmae before me.
     
  16. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    The Censor has no authority over initiatives.
     
  17. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Surely you read the next lines, didn't you? Let's add a bit more context.

    Also, review the discussion for C4DG1JR4 (starts around post 95) - the basis for that ruling is that lower forms of law, may clarify this section of the Constitution.

    It's an intersting question, and one that will surely (translation, expect a PM, Black_Hole) end up on the Term 4 court's docket. The word "official" is mentioned only on Referendum. The Polling Standards clause refers only to "official" polls. Indeed, the list of duties for the Censor also refers only to "Official" polls.

    I think the desire and intent was for the Censor to validate all non-opinion polls, and to set standards for those polls. I suspect that the very nature of the Code of Laws comes back to haunt itself, through the specific and detailed language the framers preferred.

    I'm quite looking forward to the Judicial Review on this! And then to the amendment that will probably follow ...

    -- Ravensfire

    EDIT: Gah - didn't get the quote BH quoted.
     
  18. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    well thats a small conflict in the constitution, one cluase states the intitiative can't be modified, while the other says it just can't be removed...
     
  19. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Read the context in which the "cannot be modified" clause is - the meaning is pretty clear.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  20. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    :blush: oops, I see now... It just says that the intiative's rank in the hierchy can't be changed
     

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