City capture, cities are too weak

[barzing]

Hello,

Sorry in advance for my english.

I engaged a CP+CBP game Huge map (communitas map), marathon, 14 civs, 24 city state. I went full warmonger. I'm allmost always in war w/ 2 or 3 civs

I find that capture of cities are way too unbalanced :

1- City defense is generally too weak
Cities are captured and recaptured too fast because u haven't the time to reinforce correctly the city and defense keep too low. Units that fortify the city do not add enough defense i think. It's also linked w/ the mechanism of investment to build buildings. When u capture a city the number a turn to enforce ur city is way too long between build of courthouse and build of defenses (like wall, castle, ... ? and too few defense building). If it miss some defense building anyway and other mechanism to enforce logically the city. that point me to the 2nd point.


2 - Why there are no naval ship that help to enforce city defense ?
When a city is attacked by a ship (corvette, ironclad) and when there is a corvette or ironclad in the city, only the city combat strenght is accounted as defense. It drives to unbalanced situation of capture. For example u can capture a city with a weak unit (caravel) when u have a strong unit (ironclad) in it because the city defense is too low. I manage to capture a city with an ironclad full healed in it with my ironclad half healed (?!)

Here an example :

Before city attack :

Spoiler :

After city attack :

Spoiler :

My mods : (+ CP/CBP)

Spoiler :

Thanks in advance.

 

[Funak]

1- City defense is generally too weak
Cities are captured and recaptured too fast because u haven't the time to reinforce correctly the city and defense keep too low. Units that fortify the city do not add enough defense i think. It's also linked w/ the mechanism of investment to build buildings. When u capture a city the number a turn to enforce ur city is way too long between build of courthouse and build of defenses (like wall, castle, ... ? and too few defense building). If it miss some defense building anyway and other mechanism to enforce logically the city. that point me to the 2nd point.

Intended, you're not supposed to defend behind your city, you're supposed to keep your troops in front of it.

2 - Why there are no naval ship that help to enforce city defense ?
When a city is attacked by a ship (corvette, ironclad) and when there is a corvette or ironclad in the city, only the city combat strenght is accounted as defense. It drives to unbalanced situation of capture. For example u can capture a city with a weak unit (caravel) when u have a strong unit (ironclad) in it because the city defense is too low. I manage to capture a city with an ironclad full healed in it with my ironclad half healed (?!) .

Intended, Naval ships have never been able to garrison a city, and I see no real reason to change that. If you allowed that you would run into weird situations where a city with both a land unit and a naval unit garrisoning it would be pretty much unkillable.

 

[Senteliks]

Apart from what Funak says about naval units, if they would be able to contribute to city defense score, not to mention part where ships (melee) can capture cities and that range ships are damn powerful in late eras (if placed in city ..... ), then naval units would be bit of overkill don't you think ?

 

[barzing]

Intended, you're not supposed to defend behind your city, you're supposed to keep your troops in front of it.

Intended, Naval ships have never been able to garrison a city, and I see no real reason to change that. If you allowed that you would run into weird situations where a city with both a land unit and a naval unit garrisoning it would be pretty much unkillable.

As it is, stationning in the city tend to give u a malus not a bonus.

U have more chance to survive outside the city than in the city. (and it's highly true in a city cleaned after a first capture)

If u have a land unit and a naval ship in the city, it can be defeated in one attack and and u loose city + 2 units with pretty low loose for attacker.
While, i think, having units in the city should render the capture more difficult or at least unit shouldn't be destroyed but expulse from the city w/ half heal or something like that to balance it.

Or city defense should get a bit of basic upgrade (little % of unit strenght) while unit station in it and maybe more w/ unit that fortify the city (w/ defense upgrading slowly for the next 3 turn for example)

Maybe it's really intended. I just waited for a bit more of competition when attacking a city, it tends to be "not too hard" to capture it.

That's my point of view at least, i usually see more defense w/ other overall mods or game unmoded, that's maybe why.

Anyway if intended, any mod i can use along CP/CBP to add defense on cities ?

Gratz !

 

[barzing]

Apart from what Funak says about naval units, if they would be able to contribute to city defense score, not to mention part where ships (melee) can capture cities and that range ships are damn powerful in late eras (if placed in city ..... ), then naval units would be bit of overkill don't you think ?

Yes but there is a beautiful scale between "no def bonus while stationing" and "full bonus when stationing" for naval ship. The % can be different if it is naval ship. Even 1% is better than 0% (and more logical / realistic / balanced), no ?

 

[Funak]

Yes but there is a beautiful scale between "no def bonus while stationing" and "full bonus when stationing" for naval ship. The % can be different if it is naval ship. Even 1% is better than 0% (and more logical / realistic / balanced), no ?

The thing is, you can't have both the landunit and the naval unit providing defense, so if both a naval unit and a land-unit are in a city one would need priority defending over the other one. No matter what decision you make at that point someone is going to complain about it. it is fine the way it is, you're never supposed to capture a city in a way that lets it get recaptured anyways.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Cities are very weak without walls and garrisons but that's pretty logical I'd say. They're very strong if you've got Walls + Castle + Garrison though. I recommend killing all the units near the city if possible first.

If you have problems with conquering cities and not being able to put up Walls, I recommend taking Orders belief. They're half as strong as walls, reduce crime, provide +2 faith and Heroic Epic promotion. I'm not really recommending this very much though, the 3CS 25HP (IIRC) it provides change very little, their faith output is just 2, crime reduction and Morale everywhere is the only good thing about them but it's a fine alternative if you wouldn't rather get more/better units around the city.

Alternatively, play Spain. If you've reached Chivalry and annex you can instabuy a Mission (identical as Castle defense wise, can be bought with Faith and doesn't require walls) as soon as the city ends its rebellious phase and allows you to start building stuff, no need to take Orders. Worth noting is that Conquistadors are real beasts against cities if you go the Drill route, especially if you manage to snatch Alhambra (with Drill 1 for free they get to March so fast it's not even funny, and in large quantities they just eat cities for dessert - and thanks to Mission's gold, you can get those quantities out sooner or later).

 

[Tomice]

A city with ship + land unit has three shots against approaching enemies. If you make those shots count, you can often survive against 5-6 enemy units of the same tech level.

Some tipps:

• City placement is essential. Use rivers, mountains, coast, lakes and all other terrain to your advantage.
• Remember that ranged units can't take a city - kill their melee units first!
• Focus your firepower! Kill one unit before starting to attack the next one. Don't let them retreat to heal.
• Try to kill units on disadvantageous terrain first (those that tale extra damage from being in marches etc.)
• Don't overkill! Check out how much damage your attacks would do by hovering over the enemy unit, then choose the right attack. Don't waste your strongest attack on an enemy with single hit point left.

Example for using terrain:

Spoiler :

Westlake can only be attacked from one direction. The city, its garrison and the naval unit in the city can each take two free shots on any approaching melee unit. In case of war, another ship could be on the lake tile, another archer east of the lake and another ship in the fortress/canal. Two more ranged ships could fire on the tile west of the fortress without fearing retaliation from the Swedish city.
The AI would need two tech levels advantage and a large army to take this city if reinforced/defended properly.

 

[barzing]

A city with ship + land unit has three shots against approaching enemies. If you make those shots count, you can often survive against 5-6 enemy units of the same tech level.

Some tipps:

• City placement is essential. Use rivers, mountains, coast, lakes and all other terrain to your advantage.
• Remember that ranged units can't take a city - kill their melee units first!
• Focus your firepower! Kill one unit before starting to attack the next one. Don't let them retreat to heal.
• Try to kill units on disadvantageous terrain first (those that tale extra damage from being in marches etc.)
• Don't overkill! Check out how much damage your attacks would do by hovering over the enemy unit, then choose the right attack. Don't waste your strongest attack on an enemy with single hit point left.

Example for using terrain:

Spoiler :

Westlake can only be attacked from one direction. The city, its garrison and the naval unit in the city can each take two free shots on any approaching melee unit. In case of war, another ship could be on the lake tile, another archer east of the lake and another ship in the fortress/canal. Two more ranged ships could fire on the tile west of the fortress without fearing retaliation from the Swedish city.
The AI would need two tech levels advantage and a large army to take this city if reinforced/defended properly.

In fact approaching enemies is a unavailable wording when u can attack a city from 10 tiles away (and even far away).
Seeing ur screenshot u're still in Classical Era, but when u check my screenshot and u can see i'm in the Modern Era.
A city with a 8 combat strenght is overrided by a 74 combat strenght ironclad ship as seen in my screenshot. And ur city is dead in one attack
No matter how u are organize. U have to admit ur city is in a idealistic situation. (tile)city>(tile)water>(tile)land with fort>ocean is very pecular one.

Gratz !!!

 

[Funak]

In fact approaching enemies is a unavailable wording when u can attack a city from 10 tiles away (and even far away).

The trick here is to block all naval entrances to the city. The city in your post however makes that really hard (really badly settled city). Bottom like is that you need more units

 

[barzing]

The trick here is to block all naval entrances to the city. The city in your post however makes that really hard (really badly settled city). Bottom like is that you need more units

Yes, and it wasn't my city, it was a city setlled by a civ.
My thread is not complaining about being wrecked, but how fast i can wreck AI.

Cheers !!!

 

[Senteliks]

Yes, and it wasn't my city, it was a city setlled by a civ.
My thread is not complaining about being wrecked, but how fast i can wreck AI.

Cheers !!!

This. AI is good at defending inland cities but taking coastal cities from them is .. especially in late eras, when I build nuclear submarines armed with nukes, missiles and protect them with Battle ships.

Now, AI is a lot better at naval operations than the last time I played, however it doesn't build enough of naval units and what's with suicidal Diplomats/Great Persons ? I know that latter is entirely different topic but why would AI left without units to defend, city sent workers, GP/diplomats at me, instead of moving them to safety ?

Back to the topic, as I said AI should have some safe guard to easy defense of coastal cities for them. Now, I know there is "Mine field " but I notice that AI tends to ignore this building and i think it should be moved little sooner, that or make some kind of earlier means to defend.

 

[Tomice]

Seeing ur screenshot u're still in Classical Era, but when u check my screenshot and u can see i'm in the Modern Era.
QUOTE]

Sorry, I admit I didn't check your post in detail.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

I manage to capture a city with an ironclad full healed in it with my ironclad half healed (?!)

You have probably the Authoroty policy that heals melee units for 20 HP when they kill a unit. Ironclads are melee, and you killed the pike in the process of conquering the city.
I think cities are very well positioned - they are very vulnerable unless garrisoned and/or walled. As they shoud be.
Especially coastal cities, where a lot of attackers can appear very quickly. I have gotten into the habit of building walls very early in coastal cities. Especialy ironclads are very potent at sniping cities.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Example for using terrain:

Spoiler :

Westlake can only be attacked from one direction. The city, its garrison and the naval unit in the city can each take two free shots on any approaching melee unit. In case of war, another ship could be on the lake tile, another archer east of the lake and another ship in the fortress/canal. Two more ranged ships could fire on the tile west of the fortress without fearing retaliation from the Swedish city.
The AI would need two tech levels advantage and a large army to take this city if reinforced/defended properly.[/QUOTE]

From a purely defensive point of view, I am not so conviced of that city. You are correct, only one melee unit can assault the city at a time - but that is all it takes. Ant that melee unit can sit on a forested hill, and when it has too much damage retreat behin the hill, where th garrison cannot reach it and the city not until the indirect fire tech.
Putting it east of the lake, between the two rivers, would make it better. If you block the northern hill with a unit, in can only be attacked from two tiles, and those attacks are across rivers. Also, attackers are in open terrain, giving the city and ranged attackers much better attacks. And you Keep the City coastal.
Putting it on the hill east would give it more combat strength, and also puts rivers between itself and attackers. It could theoretically be attacked by several melee units, but then the attacker would have to spend several turns moving them into position, which should be enough time to weaken them with ranged units.

 

[Kirschi]

1- City defense is generally too weak
Cities are captured and recaptured too fast because u haven't the time to reinforce correctly the city and defense keep too low. Units that fortify the city do not add enough defense i think. It's also linked w/ the mechanism of investment to build buildings. When u capture a city the number a turn to enforce ur city is way too long between build of courthouse and build of defenses (like wall, castle, ... ? and too few defense building). If it miss some defense building anyway and other mechanism to enforce logically the city. that point me to the 2nd point.

I totally agree that cities are way to weak. For me it is too easy to capture cities from the AI especially as soon as I got the Landship. Most smaller and medium cities are captured with one melee attack. I think some Defense scaling for newly founded (or all) cities per era would be a good idea.

 

[grmagne]

For fun I tried attacking the Songhai's 2nd, newly-created city with 2 warriors and 2 scouts. I failed I guess new cities aren't as weak as I thought.

 

[Zares]

Play multiplayer - you will realize that capturing cities is very difficult, especially if defender knows, that you'll come soon (and he doesn't even need to have a vision), he just need to hover at neighbor's score and monitor his military power (it should be removed from mp, can it be?) - if it start raising, the attacker will probably attack soon. The defender can build forts, make defend line, etc. And with a quick game speed defender is in even better position (he can build 1 unit per city/turn in the best case scenario).

Play singleplayer - AI is stupid in attacking cities, it just rush or retreat. And strange, in the last version, I noticed that AI likes to just stand near the city without retreating at low hp. So maybe you can capture city quite easy, but AI just...can't.

 

[Tomice]

From a purely defensive point of view, I am not so conviced of that city. You are correct, only one melee unit can assault the city at a time - but that is all it takes. Ant that melee unit can sit on a forested hill, and when it has too much damage retreat behin the hill, where th garrison cannot reach it and the city not until the indirect fire tech.
Putting it east of the lake, between the two rivers, would make it better. If you block the northern hill with a unit, in can only be attacked from two tiles, and those attacks are across rivers. Also, attackers are in open terrain, giving the city and ranged attackers much better attacks. And you Keep the City coastal.
Putting it on the hill east would give it more combat strength, and also puts rivers between itself and attackers. It could theoretically be attacked by several melee units, but then the attacker would have to spend several turns moving them into position, which should be enough time to weaken them with ranged units.

Agreed, the city position is a compromise between grabbing the valuable perfume (it's my only city with access to it) and keeping the city "coastal". The positions you suggested would have been better defensively.
Note that I founded the city when I thought the fort would make it a fully functional coastal city. But it's not allowed to build a harbor or ships even after the fort connected it, so this was a mistake.