[NFP] "City Chopping" a way to fix Babylons late game Science bog

[ATEX]

It has been mentioned several times now both on this forum and on youtube that Babylon is not really that great of a civ for Science Victory because of the 50% penalty and lack of late game boosts. This is not really the case.

Already before Babylon released the few players that compete in the HOF section that play fast Science victory had a concept going that solves the problems of the late game Babylon bog.

The idea is quite simple; "City chopping". You need to pillage the 15-25 000 or so science that you cannot get through boosts. The easiest way to do it, is to have about 10 cities with fully developed industrial zones
and campuses. You give them away to an AI, and pillage them for around 250-300 science per pillage. That is 2000-2400 science per city. This method will basically speed up any science victory, as you trade Science per turn for instant science. Just like chopping a resource. But of course it works brilliantly with Babylon.

Im pretty sure we will see all standard setting science victories in the 120s with this strategy.

PS! For those that thinks this type of play is horrible or boring or stupid, I have no problem with that. Dont use it. Im just saying that the solution for the Babylon problem is there, and it is very efficient.

 

[caketastydelish]

With me, the late game flaw of Babylon doesn't matter because of the snowball effect by the late stage of the game. Just keep expanding (particularly by conquering) and you'll have such an advantage by that stage in the game that it hardly matters anymore. I always go for a combo of science and conquest every time, I don't know how to play any other way or even try to. This is not just Babylon but all civs. Any civ that doesn't lend itself to that playstyle is a civ I don't bother playing.

 

[KKirrin]

Yeah I’m super interested in Babylon, makes me wonder what they could do with a really fast tech tree even without the city chopping. Getting an ideal one would mean only having to hard research a handful of techs across the entire game, imagine it’ll become pretty interesting choosing what not to boost. Should be getting that pack here in a couple days when I’ve got decent WiFi again

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

You found some crazy way to avoid a lack of spt for science victories. Do you think your strategy can be relevant for other civs such as Religious Russia, combining high faith economy, high spt and city chopping ? Idon't think I will use it in my games, it does sound too much like an exploit to me but it is remarquable to have discovered that. Thank you ATEX for all your tips, you remind me civtrader6 a few years ago.

What do you think of the potential of Babylon without using this strategy ? I do think Babylon is a good/very good civ but I am not sure how good they are. I am obviously less experienced than you so my thoughts are probably not accurate enough.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

All Civs can use Nalanda for T80 SVs.

 

[ATEX]

You found some crazy way to avoid a lack of spt for science victories. Do you think your strategy can be relevant for other civs such as Religious Russia, combining high faith economy, high spt and city chopping ? Idon't think I will use it in my games, it does sound too much like an exploit to me but it is remarquable to have discovered that. Thank you ATEX for all your tips, you remind me civtrader6 a few years ago.

What do you think of the potential of Babylon without using this strategy ? I do think Babylon is a good/very good civ but I am not sure how good they are. I am obviously less experienced than you so my thoughts are probably not accurate enough.

Yes this will work with all science games and all civs.

I think Babylon is still top 3 for fast science wins completely without pillaging. You can reach the future era so fast, and even with 50% penalty a 1000 Spt should be possible. So I have no doubt it is fast.

All Civs can use Nalanda for T80 SVs.

Yes this is a bug that exist. But I dont see how that is relevant to a strategy about pillaging.

 

[Equilin]

Yes this is a bug that exist. But I dont see how that is relevant to a strategy about pillaging.

The relevancy is that it completely shadows this pillage strategy.

 

[Minou]

I would be pretty shocked if they don't modify Nalanda in the next patch to remove the unlimited free tech bug. Besides, you can't count on Nalanda being there every game. "City Chopping" can be used in any game, though I have to say it feel wrong - I even hate chopping all the forests in my older cities for Lasers so this being optimal makes me sad.

All they need to do is remove pillage scaling and things would be fine.

 

[ATEX]

The relevancy is that it completely shadows this pillage strategy.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. My tip was meant to help people get a faster end game when playing SV-games. And specifically help with how to play babylon late game. That there is a cs with a bug doesn't really matter. Nalanda won't even be in most games, and the bug will probably be fixed in the next patch. Pillaging however will not...

 

[Equilin]

you can't count on Nalanda being there every game.

Nalanda won't even be in most games,

We know there is a CS selector coming the next patch right?

And given that the peace deal bug has not been fixed yet after one patch, i am not 100% convinced that Nalanda bug will be fixed. Although it would be good if both are fixed.

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

The fact that one strategy exists doesn't mean we can't discuss other strategies. We all agree that the Nalanda bug or exploit or whatever it is allows civs to win science victories absurdly early. Now that we all agree, we can also stop talking about it and discuss the strategy actually brought up in the opening post. Think of it perhaps as a good strategy to use in any setting in which you ban building Mahaviras.

What is Babylon's advantage in using this strategy? Is it just getting to the future tech faster than other civs, so that pillaged science goes directly into unboostable techs faster?

 

[Equilin]

I have doubts on it being "very efficient". 10 cities with full campuses and IZs are not cheap to get, either in faith, gold, or production
Also a military to pillage them without getting annihilated by urban defenses before it finished, not cheap either

 

[KKirrin]

Full campuses are needed anyway, and you’re going to build some industrial zones for eurekas too. Urban defenses is pretty much a non issue for pillaging, though. These are your cities, too—just plan them in a way that makes pillaging them easy.

It’s not hard to get the pillaging promo early and upgrade that unit into a helicopter, pillage a full campus and dart away if needed.

it sounds extreme, but it’s going to be optimal in some games with the way pillaging scales up and the policy, especially when you’re only getting 50% from those campuses and nothing from iz’s.

I totally get not wanting to use it but the math is pretty clear—Even if you assume you’ve got full rationalism/doubled high adjacency, you’re still only looking at what, like 30 science a turn from a full campus as Babylon? Even if you assume you’re getting 50 a turn you could pillage it for 1000. so do you want to wait 20 turns for that same amount of science or do you want it instantly? It’s not like you need cities in the future era anyway aside from your chop/charge ones, giving up a few of them has almost zero cost and a lot of potential benefit

 

[ATEX]

You dont need 10 cities to make it work. Just any city that is not a space city and that has an IZ or a campus or both with enough buildings. The point is that you trade instant science by loosing spt. So you have to calculate at what point you "chop". As Babylon has the huge penalty on spt, the math is just more favourable towards chops. Urban defenses disappears as long as you give the city to a player without steel. And the city strength drops to the Ai level. So pretty much any unit can do the pillaging.

 

[EscapedGoat]

Well, this might be an effective, in-game solution, but is too "metagame" for me, and while it is not strictly speaking an exploit, I would feel DIRTY for doing it this way