City Liberation is ******ed and completely broken

[nj666]

Triremes ain't cheap

3 triremes is a very cheap price for crippling other player's empire forever

Only if your opponent is a moron

No, you don't risk in any case. You capture city and return it to AI, your units are teleported out of range of anything. Opponent has no way to retaliate unless he already had access to same coast and has navy.

When you leave undefended cities near unscouted area, everything is UNPREDICTABLE

Ok I'm perfectly fine with that.
I'm not fine with:
1) war wearyness redirection tactic of liberating city from sea over and over
2) waging irreversibe war wearyness in opponent, then fortify and just watch him suffocate

That's why I suggested delaying the liberation from few turns, so that you don't have this "teleportation exploit"

This would solve a lot of problems, where do I sign?

Nope. If it's 95% of the time then it's just worth the risk. Don't be paranoid.

And that's when luck comes in. If it's 95% for normal people then it's about 50% or maybe 30% for me. We already discussed this. The game should not become a roulette because that would be unfair to unlucky players.

Also this strategy depends on you being dumb enough to take the same city over and over and over

Not really, even a single liberation is painful enough, war wearyness received is already irreversible (player won't accept peace) and no way to retaliate (player has no capturable cities or killable units). so he can do this zero-risk crippling forever if he wants, or basically makes this city unassailable.

So, is it waging war or settling? If we're talking war, take one city, reinforce it. Triremes can't do **** against couple archers/trebuchets (which you said you have)

I was suggested to not conquer coastal cities until making navy. To make navy, I need coastal city. The only way to do this during war is bringing settlers with army 'just-in-case'. Which making army even more expensive if compared to cost of 2-3 triremas that it tries to counter.
And ranged units are useless because triremas are always out of range.

You have a ramshackle set of defenseless puppets

No, I annex them gradually and build courthouses. But a newly conquered city is always defenseless against couple of triremas on next turn, even with knight inside it. That's the problem.

You lose units like there's not tomorrow when you face actual players

Pure lies. In our last game you lost like 3x more units. But of course you could always bring reinforcements while I was suffocating from irreversible war wearyness and capital needed like 25 turns for one knight.

You greedily grab everything in your sight and don't bother defending or developing it

There is no way to defend newly captured coastal city against several triremas.

 

[nj666]

I can upload a save once game is done so everybody can judge the real state of empires.

What would that show? My empire is crippled 50% for like 20 turns already so obviously you'll get more and more ahead.
Basically you already won when did these several liberations, now I'm just trying to die or battle or something.

 

[Owlbebach]

Heeerreeee weeeee gooooo agaaaiin!

 

[Voker57]

Pure lies. In our last game you lost like 3x more units. But of course you could always bring reinforcements while I was suffocating from irreversible war wearyness and capital needed like 25 turns for one knight.

I lost more units only when I mobbed down your lvl 10 knight (and it was totally worth it)

There is no way to defend newly captured coastal city against several triremas.

Wrong. See above.

 

[Voker57]

What would that show? My empire is crippled 50% for like 20 turns already so obviously you'll get more and more ahead.

We would see how you would've done something more meaningful than bashing your head against few coastal puppets.

 

[CppMaster]

Sorry about interpersonal drama itc, just wanted to give my side of the story so that it does not look like stuff nj says is official position of community. Threads like these are better done with saves, screenshots and replays. I can upload a save once game is done so everybody can judge the real state of empires.

Don't bother, we don't need to judge you. Let's just keep this topic about game mechanic and not about specifically your game and your relations.

And that's when luck comes in. If it's 95% for normal people then it's about 50% or maybe 30% for me. We already discussed this. The game should not become a roulette because that would be unfair to unlucky players.

No it's not 95% is 95%

No, I annex them gradually and build courthouses. But a newly conquered city is always defenseless against couple of triremas on next turn, even with knight inside it. That's the problem.

It's not a problem with game mechanics; It should be vulnerable.

 

[nj666]

That's because only you consider it a bug

I don't see how winning game with 3 liberations is not a bug. Player has no chance to retaliate or fix his empire, he just suffocates and loses.

I lost more units only when I mobbed down your lvl 10 knight (and it was totally worth it)

And that was my only casualty. Well and some spearmen which didn't mean anything anyway.

Wrong. See above

No, you see. City with knight can be recaptured with 3 triremas on next turn ez. So unless you are vastly superior in technology you can't defend vs triremas. Oh, and knight IS technologically superior to triremas. So we should consider caravels instead. So how the hell is it possible to prevent 3 caravels from recapturing newly captured city?
It looks like city changing hands was intended mechanic in this case because both players would both lose units and get war wearyness. With liberation, however, only one player is affected while other is completely safe. So liberation is broken here.

 

[Moi Magnus]

@Gazebo Apart from the (more or less toxic) personnal discussions, this thread do point an exploit when liberating cities: the immediate teleportation of the units out of the danger zone. Do you think this exploit can be patched?

(I suggested adding a delay of few turns before the effective liberation, but it may not be feasable without completely recoding the liberation process)

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo Apart from the (more or less toxic) personnal discussions, this thread do point an exploit when liberating cities: the immediate teleportation of the units out of the danger zone. Do you think this exploit can be patched?

(I suggested adding a delay of few turns before the effective liberation, but it may not be feasable without completely recoding the liberation process)

Not really feasible, no. And the thing is, this whole thread isn’t about bugs. It’s about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

G

 

[ElliotS]

war wearyness received is already irreversible (player won't accept peace)

Wrong again. Declaring war or having war declared on you immediately decreases war waeriness. Even if you get taken totally by surprise, you can declare on a distant (or not so distant) AI to reduce your war weariness.

The real secret is taking accountability for your actions and not claiming everything is luck and bugs.

@Gazebo Apart from the (more or less toxic) personnal discussions, this thread do point an exploit when liberating cities: the immediate teleportation of the units out of the danger zone. Do you think this exploit can be patched?

(I suggested adding a delay of few turns before the effective liberation, but it may not be feasable without completely recoding the liberation process)

It's not an exploit. NJ being bad at the game doesn't make it an exploit.

Not really feasible, no. And the thing is, this whole thread isn’t about bugs. It’s about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

G

Exactly.

 

[nj666]

We would see how you would've done something more meaningful

What meaningful can be done after empire is permanently crippled 50% and huge unhappyness?

95% is 95%

Nope. I could also provide example of how I tried crypto trading but that's long story. In short, price turned against me in 90% of cases despite me trying completely different strategies and sometimes even reversing initial decisions.

It's not a problem with game mechanics; It should be vulnerable.

Exactly. I agree and totally support that. So liberation is a problem here because it allows city changing hands to be utterly damaging to one player and completely safe for another.

 

[Paramecium]

Sorry, but how can you lose with knights and trebuchets vs triremes? And noone said that you just should ignore the AI cities, burn it, vassal them, there are more options then just the scenario you described.

I have to agree that liberating is very cheesy even against the AI, because if you liberate a dead AI, first everyone gets pushed out and then the other AI is declaring war against your new vassal. Especially if you liberate a coast city which borders are reaching far inland, teleporting the defender and former conquorer out of the territory.

But seriously, how I see it, it is just using the liberating mechanic to save the trireme which conquered your city. So you still have your trebuchets to sink some triremes, if you use your knights to conquer and step out, only the attacker with triremes will lose, sure you get the war wariness, but then you have to adapt, burn the city, plant a new one, so he will lose his triremes in the city and get the penalty too.

 

[nj666]

Wrong again. Declaring war or having war declared on you immediately decreases war waeriness. Even if you get taken totally by surprise, you can declare on a distant (or not so distant) AI to reduce your war weariness.

Wow, never knew of that. If it works it may be a workaround, but still not real solution. Basically if you don't have any cities on new coast then you can't capture anything on this coast until building own cities and making navy. Which will take a LONG time. And we all know how important it is to crush Emperor AIs as fast as possible, otherwise they just get ahead overwhelm you with units.

NJ being bad at the game

I'm just bad at exploiting bugs and unintended side effects of game mechanics. If you feel otherwise we can duel again, but I'd consider the risk of losing what's left of reputation due to losing to somebody who's bad at game very carefully if I was you.

 

[CppMaster]

What meaningful can be done after empire is permanently crippled 50% and huge unhappyness?

Make peace with AI to prevents this

Nope. I could also provide example of how I tried crypto trading but that's long story. In short, price turned against me in 90% of cases despite me trying completely different strategies and sometimes even reversing initial decisions.

This doesn't prove anything. When playing Poker Texas Holdem, having two aces before flop gives you 85% chances to win against one player. If you have this situation 100 times, it's expected that you would win 85 of them, but it doesn't mean you actually will win 85 of them. You still should take this chances though.

I'm just bad at exploiting bugs and unintended side effects of game mechanics. If you feel otherwise we can duel again, but I'd consider the risk of losing what's left of reputation due to losing to somebody who's bad at game very carefully if I was you.

How about duel without AI?

 

[Voker57]

What meaningful can be done after empire is permanently crippled 50% and huge unhappyness?

Who said anything about after?

No, you see. City with knight can be recaptured with 3 triremas on next turn ez.

Wrong.

Oh, and knight IS technologically superior to triremas. So we should consider caravels instead. So how the hell is it possible to prevent 3 caravels from recapturing newly captured city?

Caravellas are much more expensive. If by the time your opponent gets caravellas, you don't have a single coastal city, well, capture something else.

 

[nj666]

but how can you lose with knights and trebuchets vs triremes?

Easy. Newly conquered city with knight has 12 defence and half HP. One trireme of AI nearly captured it in 4 turns so I had to bring catapult to help. So 3 triremes could capture it in 1 turn along with knight, and then of course liberate and teleport away.

But seriously, how I see it, it is just using the liberating mechanic to save the trireme which conquered your city.

No, the main problem is that he can give me war wearyness by conquering city but I can't give him war wearyness because city already belongs to AI. So it's completely safe for him to do it infinetely which means I have to either accumulate irreversible war wearyness or forget about this city and that coast forever.

So you still have your trebuchets to sink some triremes

No, they are out of range. When I'm very lucky I sometimes get one shot on them but he then just heals them.

sure you get the war wariness

Irreversible war wearyness that accumulates infinetely, unless I abandon hopes of conquering this city and this coast.

burn the city

It's not instant and the next turn city is captured and liberated.

 

[Paramecium]

Again, you guys play on Epic Emperor, the AI is definitly not unstoppable, trust me. And if you cant get the coastal city, burn every city, vassal the AI having them and let the other guy declare war on you, if he cant attack cities with his triremes, he wont have any advantage of being in war with you.
Sure, that wont fix your problem after you opening post, but that post gave me just the picture of a dude trying to crush a wall with his head...
And if he doesnt want to make peace, declare war against someone else, just save the coast and wait, he cant touch you, you cant touch him ...

 

[nj666]

Make peace with AI to prevents this

No it didn't help because war wearyness was caused by player (and he never accept peace).

How about duel without AI?

sure but that won't be civ anymore.

Who said anything about after?

You were going to share save, no?

 

[nj666]

burn every city

burning isn't instant

vassal the AI

you need to conquer most of empire of AI to make it vassal. And his coastal cities were kinda in my way and spammed units, so if I avoided them I would succumb to endless war vs unit waves.

 

[ElliotS]

I'm just bad at exploiting bugs and unintended side effects of game mechanics. If you feel otherwise we can duel again, but I'd consider the risk of losing what's left of reputation due to losing to somebody who's bad at game very carefully if I was you.

The problem is that a 1v1 duel is a very bad display of overall ability at civ. That said out 1v1 also proved that even when you have access to elephants and horses and not me you can still manage to lose somehow. You placed a city directly in front of a squad of archers on flat land and with plenty of good firing spots.

I'm honestly just too busy to to play you right now. Dinner with grandparents after work. Pool party with girlfriend Saturday, Pathfinder Sunday. Etc. My little amount of time for video games goes for only enjoyable stuff, which you don't qualify as.