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City Name Maps

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Jul 2, 2011.

  1. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Caernarfon was never the capital of Gwynedd - it was founded by the Normans who built the castle after their conquest of Wales.

    Deganwy was the capital of Gwynedd at the start time of the mod, and it had moved to Abergwyngregyn (modern day Conwy) by the time of the Norman invasion.
     
  2. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caernarfon#History

    "The present city of Caernarfon grew up around and owes its name to its Norman and Edwardian fortifications."

    The English CNM should have Caernarfon, as it was founded by the English. But there should be no chance for an indy city to spawn there imo.

    The native Welsh principalities built their fortifications close to the English border for defence, not right on the coast where they would leave the inland regions free to attack. Caernarvon was founded by the English to ensure no Welsh armies could face an English army without a fortification at their back.
     
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Fair enough
    (I'm easy to convince :))
    What should be the Welsh indy city then?
     
  4. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I would say have three choices:

    Abergwyngregyn on the hill N of the sheep
    Mathrafal / Powys on the hill S of the sheep
    Cardiff either on the stone hill or 1W if we want to avoid resources

    That covers three of the main Welsh kingdoms at the time of the Norman invasion, and gives a bit of variety to simulate different kingdoms becoming dominant in different games.
     
  5. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    You're right that Caernafon wasn't the capital of Gwynedd (my mistake), but most of the Gwyneddian capitals (including Abergwyngregyn) would still have been on that tile, NW of the sheep. Aberffraw might be a better choice, it was capital for longer and during the time when the city would presumably spawn.

    Also, spawning Cardiff to represent the Welsh makes little sense - Cardiff was in Morgannwg, never quite important compared to Gwynedd, Powys, or Deheubarth. It should be Dinefwr 1W of the stone, which could be renamed to Cardiff on English conquest if its appearance is desired.
     
  6. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Abergwyngregyn was close to the border between the two tiles imo, and given the lopsided shape of Wales in the mod I would say it should be on the tile N of the sheep as it is a long way west of Holyhead, Aberdaron and other west coast ports. For gameplay I think it would be odd to have it right on the west coast of Wales.

    I disagree there - Deheubarth was in decline by the time of the Norman conquest, which is ultimately the most important time point as we are focusing on which Welsh settlement the English and Scottish will fight over for their UHV. It was overrun by Morgannwg and Gywnedd in the early 11th century and was largely a client of Gwynedd after that.

    Dinefwr was also only a castle, it never had a sizeable settlement attached to it, so showing it as a city would be quite ahistorical. Maybe have it as a preplaced fort on the map if we want to represent it.
     
  7. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Still, Aberffraw was far more important than Abergwyngregyn, and Aberffraw should definitely be on the NW most tile of Wales.

    Morgannwg, however, was even smaller, weaker and more irrelevant than Deheubarth, and was the first to be conquered (only some 25 years after England spawns); if Deheubarth shouldn't be represented, Morgannwg most definitely should not either.
     
  8. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    Of course the English-language rendition "Caernarfon" is a modern innovation which is more faithful to Welsh than its old rendition. It would have been spelled Carnarvon in English-language contexts from the beginning of standard English spelling until the early 20th century, and still to this day in archaic contexts such as, for instance, the Earls of Carnarvon. Thus, I think, fitting to RFCE.

    Gosh, I'd love a Welsh civ.
     
  9. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I can see that argument, and it would have the advantage of meaning Aberffraw could transition into Caernarfon under English rule. Although it is quite a weak city in game, so maybe the crab could be moved 1S and the stone 1NW to give it better potential.

    I don't see your logic there - Morgannwg was the first to be conquered as it was in the rich lowlands, close to the English border. The English went through Morgannwg to get to Deheubarth. It's like saying the early medieval ERE was the weakest empire in the world at the time as it was invaded by the Arabs before any other nation.

    Either way, you have confused the argument. It's not about which principality to be represented, it's about which city. Cardiff was larger and more important than Dinefwr, which was barely even a village for most of the period of the mod, so if we are having a city in southern Wales it should be Cardiff.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Are the city names on all parts of Britain closing to a consensus?
    Apart from those couple Welsh ones above.
    I would love to include a better CNM for Scotland/England in 1.4
     
  11. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    Sorry I can't help much, but there seem to be a lot of gaps in the Novgorod city name map quite close to Viborg and points east.
     
  12. TimGB

    TimGB Chieftain

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    Besides Wales, no-one has commented on my Scotland/England maps yet, so I'm not sure whether people like them or not. As for Ireland, I don't really know the place to well (never been, but would love to). Panopticon, on the other hand, is Irish, so I feel his suggestions are going to be far more valid than mine.
     
  13. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I think Panopticon's map and CNM for Ireland from post #387 is fine.

    TimGB's English map on post #395 looks good, just a couple of suggestions:

    - I think Ely and the tile under it should rightly be Norwich, as both Ely and Cambridge are directly N of London and Norwich was a much more important town in medieval England (arguably second most important outside London)
    - Bangor should be replaced with Caernarvon in Wales
    - Maybe Portsmouth should be replaced with Southampton, as that has always been a more important settlement and port within the timescale of the mod

    For the Scotland map on post #396 maybe replace Galashiels with Hawick, as Hawick was a more important fortified medieval settlement. But that's fairly minor as neither of them were really that important tbh.
     
  14. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Actually I'm hoping in something like this:

    I don't mind who does the merge of the recent ideas.
    I posted this to DC123456789 as he already has a big routine in it, but if anyone else is enthusiatic, feel free to start on the updates.
     
  15. TimGB

    TimGB Chieftain

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    If you can wait until Friday (date of my first exam), then I'll happily do it. I'll also work on the Scottish city map, though I'm not too sure what to do about the Norwegian/Danish and the French/Burgundian maps (since they didn't align with the English/Scottish maps beforehand).
     
  16. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    All city name maps should align as much as possible, otherwise it can get a bit weird.
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Great news, the updated city names are up!

    British Isles have new base city name map: Ireland area (Panopticon), Scotland area (TimGB), England area (Panopticon, TimGB, DC123456789)
    New city name map for the Scottish civ: Scottish Gaelic -> Irish Gaelic/Manx -> Welsh/Cornish/Breton -> Scots -> English - by DC123456789
    Updated city name maps for the civs France/Burgundy, England, Norway and Denmark (in Britain, Brittany, Greece, and the Levant/Egypt) - by DC123456789

    Everyone who took part of discussion pls check it out, we can still improve some minor things before the release if needed.
     
  18. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Spent a lot of time on thinking about that single indy city in Wales : crazyeye:
    In the end decided that this will be the first version:
    Wales, 900AD: Cardiff (50%, "Caerdydd"), Caernarfon (50%, "Aberffraw"), barbarian, population size 1, 2 archers, moved stone 1NW
    We can get back to it later, especially if it's not fitting enough for gameplay.
     

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