Civ 2 1-pager tech tree

[Nethog]

Thanks ArmOrAttAk, and a special thanks to starlifter, who as you can see starlifter has provided me with lots of great very detailed information to add to the reference pack.

starlifter, thanks for the info on "key civs". I did incorporate this info in the units area of the ref pack. BTW, is it possible that the key Civ could be your own Civ? If so what does this mean?

I have updated my web site with what I will call the "0.90" Beta release (the base file name is "2002_06_09_civ2info"), of "Nethog's Civ2 Reference Pack".

Anyway, one request for info for the tech tree: could you provide some text to add to the Republic and Fundamentalism boxes? Also, I could add some info on the effects of Anarchy somewhere to round out the info. Once I add this info I will start a NEW thread in this forum (perhaps in strategy as well?), on Apolyton, and in Usenet informing everyone on the beta 0.91 release.

Glad to help. You're going to play the Civ 2 GOTM, right

Ha, Ha, well if I don't brush up on secrets like "Oleo dates" and "key civs" I will never have a chance on making the chart!

 

[starlifter]

starlifter, thanks for the info on "key civs". I did incorporate this info in the units area of the ref pack. BTW, is it possible that the key Civ could be your own Civ? If so what does this mean?

Most definitely! That means the science rate will not be adjusted. If you are the Key Civ, don't gift nobody!! There is no advantage to it, since in the game's computations, you are compared against yourself (e.g., no baseline adjustments).

Never play purple if you are in a 7civ game and like to use gifting to advance.

But maybe if you don't mind a fixed, slower science rate, and really hate giving techs to the enemy... Purple might be good for you.... assuming you plan on being Supreme for the whole game.

Anyway, one request for info for the tech tree: could you provide some text to add to the Republic and Fundamentalism boxes? Also, I could add some info on the effects of Anarchy somewhere to round out the info.

My fisrt thoughts are that nothing else is really appropriate for the Tech Tree.. there are a lot of things about each form of Govt, but that's more of a Government discussion, and does not seem to me to be a Tech Tree topic.

If I think of anything later today (I'm working on something for SlowThinker at the moment) that would be logical for the Tech Tree boxes, I'll put it here.

Ha, Ha, well if I don't brush up on secrets...

Well, GOTM017 can be your testing ground for your new Ref Pack, eh? A practical application .


I'll Download your 0.90 in a bit & print it out .

 

[Nethog]

starlifter, I just finished loading civ2 MPG and patched with 1.3 - when I look at the rules.txt files there are differences from what you posted. e.g. settlers and engineers have a special ability code of "000000000000000". Why is there a difference? Have you edited your rules.txt or are you using a different version of civ2?

 

[starlifter]

Good catch. I run lots of tests on things, and that one was from when I was trying to find a way around creating alternatives to just the basic Settler and Engineer; but hard code limitations of the "Explosives" advance prevented me from making multiple new Engineer units. Settler units work out pretty well, but Leos has a hard time with it... one new Unit called the Alpine Settler. The AI even used it pretty well in testing. I've created some new units in one mod, and they test pretty well so far.

The standard unit types of any current Civ2 version should be the same as the units in every Civ2 version. Exceptions do occur in some of earliest patches (and there are other rules.txt differences in some prior official patches). I'll be installing the 2.42 patch over a FW 2.78 installation later tonight (a suggestion by Andu to get the D+1 compatibility), and am planning to look at any parameter changes with MGE too.

BTW, In one of my Civ 2 installations (I have 3), this is part of the root dir alone (not to mention over 40 other subdirs, LOL):

Anyway, I put the standard unit types up now, and it should match your patch. I just finished with my stuff for SlowThinker, and I'll be through with yours in a little while .

 

[starlifter]

TECH TREE:

I've tried more tests on the partisan thing, and realized there should be a slight change:

GUERRILA WARFARE:
add before the "captured Cities" line:

"With Communism, your captured cities may produce partisans."


COMMUNISM:
"With either Com+GP or Com+GW, your captured cities may produce partisans."

CONSCRIPTION:
add:
"Captured cities may produce more Partisans."

GUNPOWDER:
change:
"With Communism, your captured cities may produce partisans."



About your earlier request, I don't really have anything that "belongs" in the tech tree for Fundy, Republic, or Monarchy.

For Communism, I though of one more thing in keeping with things:

COMMUNISM
add
"Produces Vet Diplomats; with Espionage, produces Vet Spies."

There are lots of Gov't tidbits and comparisons, but they really don't seem to fit into the tech tree in terms of context, however.



IMPROVEMENTS
good to go



WONDERS

DARWIN:
change:
"Grants current tech being researched, plus one more; beaker total is zeroed."



CIV2 UNITS

very nice new format, btw.

SETTLER, ENGINEER
no extra abilities (those must have been my bad)


BOMBER, STEALTH BOMBER:
add note:
"Must land every 2nd turn."

FIGHTER, STEALTH FIGHTER, CM, NUKE:
add note:
"Must land every turn"

HELICOPTER:
"Loses HPs until landing."



TERRAIN DEFENSIVE
add short note for Rivers:
"Additive with any underlying terrain bonus"

Everything looks pretty darned good now!!

 

[duke o' york]

After starlifter's recommendation that other people give their impressions, here are a few things that I picked up when I had a quick look:

Tech Tree:
For Automobile and Democracy, I don't think that you need to explain the effects of the Superhighways and Courthouse as these are covered in full on the next page and aren't necessary.

Improvements:
City Walls: change to "Ineffective against Howitzers, sea and air units."
Barracks: change to "Upkeep: 1,2,3"
Nuclear Plant: Has anyone worked out the chance of a meltdown when in anarchy or is it automatic? Just a thought .
Temple: change to "The Oracle doubles the effect of temples (after Mysticism) until a civ discovers Theology".

You also might like to have Cost in shields and upkeep in gpt, whether in all the boxes, or just in the City Walls box right at the top. eg CityWalls - cost: 80 shields, upkeep: 0gpt

Wonders:
Industrial - civilization is spelt wrongly in Eiffel Tower, and cumulative is spelt wrongly in Newton's.
Modern - UN should read "Embassy with all civs."

Units:
Maybe point out that the fortress supercedes the fortifying bonus and that the two cannot be used together.
You should put the stats down for the non-military units too and you've forgotten the best unit in the game! The caravan!!


These are just a few thoughts I had when studying your excellent work. Most are just niggly grammatical errors though. Well done!

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

Damn I thought I printed the completed version, and now he gets more suggestions. I have one too then, on the units and other info (powerpoint version) lists for settlers,&engineers: X2 on def vs. horse. Treats all sqs. as roads. Paradrops. Ignores ZOC. I'm pretty sure they don't have those abilities

 

[Nethog]

I have put version 0.91 of the Civ2 reference pack on my web site ( http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html ). Duke and starlifter, I have incorporated pretty much all of your input - thanks again. starlifter, could you take a look at Guerrilla Warefare? I followed your recommendations but it looks a little strange.

BTW, I went over the units chart carefully and compared all of the values to the rules.txt from a clean install of Civ2 MGE patched to 1.3, so I think it should be quite accurate now. One question: do you think Calvary is under the wrong era? i.e. it is under "Modern", perhaps it should be under Gunpowder?

Orginal post by duke o' york:
Units:
... and you've forgotten the best unit in the game! The caravan!!

Duke, you wouldn't believe the reason for my seemingly surprising omission of the Caravan - Bill Gates!! I struggled for 2 hours today to try and discover the mysteries of how to insert an linked Excel spreadsheet object into a powerpoint presentation and get ALL of the rows and columns. There is some weird bug where powerpoint truncates the spreadsheet, hence it cut off caravan (as well as explorer). Then it started to cut off my last column. ARGHHHH! I finally had to shrink the font down, and lo and behold I got the entire sheet!!

Orginal post by duke o' york:
These are just a few thoughts I had when studying your excellent work. Most are just niggly grammatical errors though. Well done!

Keep em' coming! As you long as you guys have the interest to perfect the reference pack I'll keep editing!

Orignal post by ArmOrAttAk:
Damn I thought I ...lists for settlers,&engineers: X2 on def vs. horse. Treats all sqs. as roads. Paradrops. Ignores ZOC. I'm pretty sure they don't have those abilities

If you look at a previous post in this thread by starlifter you can see where I got this info I have since fixed the units info section and it now should be correct. Until I release the 1.0 version, I would expect that there may additional frequent changes.

 

[starlifter]

CIV 2 UNITS

Move "Fortress" to next section, just under "Fortified"

About the Cavlary:

To me, the definition of "Modern" should include that the unit does not become obsolete... and since the Armor obsoletes teh Cav, then knock the Cav back to Gunpowder.

Similarly, I'd move the Fanatic up to Modern.

TRIREME:
Change to:
"Must end turn next to land, or risk loss at sea."

could you take a look at Guerrilla Warefare?

The thing about GW is that techincally you don't need Gunpowder + Communism to activate Partisans when a city is captured. GW+Com will do it without GP. But GW will increase the partisans produced, too, which people probably notice pretty easily.

Maybe:
"With Com (but no GP), your captured cities may produce Partisans."
"Also, increases quantity of Partisans your captured cities produce."


by Duke o' York:

Nuclear Plant: Has anyone worked out the chance of a meltdown when in anarchy or is it automatic? Just a though

Never looked into it, myself. I don't know what the odds are, and I can't recall building one before. But if I did, you can bet that I'd use all the Elvii necessary to keep it out of anarchy until Fusion!


Well Nethog, it looks really good. In a ltttle while, I'll PM those that have not already posted to this thread (except DoY & DoM who are already posting) as you asked earlier. They might be able to tweak a few more things if our little discussion group has missed anything. If anyone else has read this thread to this point, ya'll feel free to input, too!

 

[duke o' york]

Typically of me, I totally forgot the existence of the explorer as I never build them, nor can I offer any assistance for the Nuke Plant meltdown question as I never build them either.
And I do believe the reason for caravan slipping off the page.

 

[Nethog]

Original quote by duke o' york
Nuclear Plant: Has anyone worked out the chance of a meltdown when in anarchy or is it automatic?

I found a web site that perhaps you are already aware of called "The Civ 2 Man's Home Page" that has a city improvements section (see http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/2328/cities.html )

The text under Nuclear Plant states "...Until you have developed Nuclear Fusion, there is a 50% chance the power plant will have a meltdown if there is a riot in the city".

I sent an e-mail to theciv2man asking him where he got his info so hopefully he will respond.

 

[Nethog]

Orginal quote by starlifter:
The thing about GW is that techincally you don't need Gunpowder + Communism to activate Partisans when a city is captured. GW+Com will do it without GP. But GW will increase the partisans produced, too, which people probably notice pretty easily.

I think what I will do is remove the reference to Partisans under the GP box, and instead modify the note under Communism to read "With Gunpowder your captured cities may produce partisans". Then in GW, I will leave your original comment unchanged, i.e. "With Communism your captured cities may produce partisans". This removes some of the redundancy and may be a little clearer for less experienced players. What do you think?

starlifter, On another topic, under the Gunpowder box, you recommended a note stating "All military units left of musketeers become obsolete" - could you please clarify this note?

Original quote by starlifter
About the Cavlary:
To me, the definition of "Modern" should include that the unit does not become obsolete... and since the Armor obsoletes teh Cav, then knock the Cav back to Gunpowder.
Similarly, I'd move the Fanatic up to Modern.

What about the Partisan unit? Should it stay under Gunpowder or should I move it under modern since it never becomes obsolete?

BTW, I have added a new column in the units area that includes the tech that makes the unit obsolete. I used the same tech code as rules.txt to save space which is obviously not very user-friendly, but avoids the powerpoint bug mentioned previously.

I will post a new version of the reference pack later today.

 

[starlifter]

I think what I will do is remove the reference to Partisans under the GP box, and instead modify the note ... What do you think?

That's a good idea. Very few players will ever notice the nuance, and at a certain point clarity for the many outweighs the nits of the few, LOL ... yup, keep it simple, the way you suggest...

you recommended a note stating "All military units left of musketeers become obsolete" - could you please clarify this note?

I don't believe I said this. It is definitely not phrased the way I would describe it, plus I used Netscape to search all the text in these threads for "musketeer", and then for "left" and could not find the reference. It seems to refer to the fact that the Warrior/Phalanx/Pikeman/Legion become obsolete... the "left" apparantly refers to the relative position of units described in the tech tree as displayed by the Wall Chart.

I don't think that phrase (or anything like it) needs to be in the tech tree, since many other advances will cause other units to be obsolete. The tree will be clearer if that is just deleted.

What about the Partisan unit? Should it stay under Gunpowder or should I move it under modern since it never becomes obsolete

I'd move it up to Modern (take it out of GP)... Besides, it is essentially a alpine slithering (ignoring ZOC) Rifleman without the 5th attack point.
Partisan=Modern.

I have added a new column in the units area that includes the tech that makes the unit obsolete.

Great idea!

 

[Nethog]

I have put version 0.92 of the Civ2 reference pack on my web site ( http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmm1/games/games.html ).

quote by starlifter:
In a ltttle while, I'll PM those that have not already posted to this thread (except DoY & DoM who are already posting) as you asked earlier.

I guess its ready to go. Please PM other civ2 gurus when you get a chance! Once all feedback is received and implemented, I will post the "final" 1.0 release to CF, Apolyton and usenet.

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by starlifter
This is funny because I doubt no Civ 2 player reaches Communism without GP first.... and I know the AI won't wait that long.
.

You can count me for one
When I start building ironclads, I don't want the AI to be able to steal GP from me, and I want to be able to switch from Monarchy to Communism ASAP in order to rule quietly the vast empire that my ironclads are going to give me. My techtree becomes: Steam Engine = Railroad = Industrialization = Communism.
I have used that in dozens of games with very nice results.

 

[SlowThinker]

It looks imposingly.
I will take a look also, probably at weekend.
I watched your thread at Apolyton, but I didn't understand you expanded the work. Maybe you should announce it at Apolyton too, people could help.

Originally posted by starlifter
When all is "done" in a few days, write a final note in this thread saying thanks for all the input...

:-( I disagree. Conversely be prepared to read this thread periodically and adjust the main text (I hope Thundefall allows to udate the Academy). Also add the link to this thread to the main text.
But this is my opinion only

Two links to debates about Partisans go from this thread:
Info: diplomats and spies. Links are yellow.

Some notes about Paradroops are at end of this thread:
Info: Combat.

 

[starlifter]

PMs are sent.

by la fayette:

You can count me for one

Now that is an interesting tech strategy! So you hold off on GP, eh? I agree that Ironclads are awesome... an empire can fall in nothing flat if his mid game capital is sitting haplessly on a coast, esp. with Sun Tzu making easy vets of Ironclads. I often go for Explosives real hard, and that pushes me right through GP on the way; I like getting their work ethic for that two food a day that set/eng eats .

 

[duke o' york]

If you decide to go with Steam Engine rather than Magnetism at that branch in the tree then the Lighthouse can give you "free" vet Ironclads as soon as they are produced!

[edit]: removed excessive verbiage

 

[starlifter]

by Slow Thinker:

-( I disagree. Conversely be prepared to read this thread periodically and adjust the main text

Good point. However, what I was referring to was that this long "beta" thread is soon done, and his 1.00 version is posted in a brand new thread, which can recieve any future input, corrections, critiques, etc. from people in the future. I've PM'd a few people to help get more folks to take a look at it & make input before he makes it 1.00 .
Then this beta thread will fade off into the sunset

 

[starlifter]

by Duke o' York:

then the Lighthouse can give you free vet Ironclads as soon as they are produced!

Wow, that might be a good use of the Lighthouse, which I normally put 2nd only to the Eiffel Tower for worthlessness. And you also get something else... an extra movement. With Magellans, that would be +3!!! In an warlike game, I really love a Navy from mid-game on. I actually got the Lightouse in the last GOTM, but did nothing with it. I even kept moving my trireme along the coast for the longest time, LOL. But a 7 move Vet Ironclad when the AI does not have GP sounds killer to me!!