Civ 3 GOTM#4 *Spoiler* talks

Originally posted by SirPleb
Heavy sigh:

I snagged the autosave and replayed the turn, skipping all units to create an end of turn save for submission. Finished the turn and there was no Domination victory.

I've gone back and experimented to find out what makes the difference. It turns out that:
1) If I raze a Persian city and then finish the turn, Domination results.
2) If I do not raze that city, no Domination results.
Razing the city involved does NOT make any difference to my borders, it does not cause my territory to change.

So we can add yet another weirdness to the list of bizarre things about the Domination limit. Domination may or may not be triggered with the exact same territory in your sphere of influence, depending on some other condition on the map.

Similar things happened to me before, I once even got a dom vic when I LOST a city :confused: :confused: Especially since I believed myself to be at least one more 3-city-island short of domination.....

Maybe we could get a GOTM without domination???????? Matrix, whaddayasay??????
 
Hmmm, this domination victory discussion seems to reveal to me why I had about 95% of the world before my domination victory occurred. I got my victory at the end not from razing a city cause I never did through the whole game but I did sue for peace and got three tiny cities as part of the settlement. That must have been the event that triggered the victory. :crazyeyes

Cartouche Bee
 
Originally posted by Matrix

Perhaps... ;)

i'd rather not have (another) no domination game (GOTM2 was no domination). as that game showed, disabling domination means that pretty much all the big scores come from a 'milked' 2050 victory which is a pretty boring way to win.

more experiments with the victory conditions should try some new things, maybe only spaceship wins for example or perhaps no domination/no conquest so you have to have a peaceful victory.
 
Originally posted by ChumChum


i'd rather not have (another) no domination game (GOTM2 was no domination). as that game showed, disabling domination means that pretty much all the big scores come from a 'milked' 2050 victory which is a pretty boring way to win.

more experiments with the victory conditions should try some new things, maybe only spaceship wins for example or perhaps no domination/no conquest so you have to have a peaceful victory.

I asked for a no-dom GOTM because it is so mysterious how it is calculated, and thus very easy to stumble into one. Otherwise it`s OK!
 
Continuing my story!

Stopping the Zulu (contd.)
After 500AD my reinforcements began landing in Zululand and my veteran and elite swordsmen were able to finally capture the capital under heavy losses again. :(
But now England entered the Medieval Age, at first pikemen appeared and stabilized the defense, no more annoying counter-attacks! And this age brought the advance of Chivalry and gave England the Royal Knights, feared all over the world. As soon as they appeared on the Zulu battlefield, victory was quickly ensured and the last cities fell within a few years. Although it took some time for the generals to adjust to using knights, in the beginning there were some humiliating defeats, soon they were almost unstoppable.
Nevertheless the Zulu war ended and only few were able to return home to tell their story. Only 1(!) swordsman unit survived the slaughtering along with a few now elite knights. :cry:
The time for changes had come!

Southern Expansion and Royal Diplomacy
The Royal Navy was the first to circumvent the world and discover all reachable landmass. The most interesting discovery were some islands further to the southeast, they promised fertile and rich lands. Therefore a colonization expedition was formed to found some new colonies there. After their long voyage they founded 3 new cities and claimed this land for the Crown. :queen:
Meanwhile the Royal Guard was strengthened to suppress any foreign aggressions.
Her Highness, the Queen, was quite successful in improving diplomatic relations with Persia and India, several good trades were achieved. The citizens at home were growing increasingly happy and our cities prospered and displayed the greatness of the Empire. :cool:
The only drawback were worsening relations with the Aztec people due to their foreign culture and missing respect! So it was decided to once again call the armed forces together for another campaign.

Teaching the Aztec a Lesson
Thanks to our great intelligence we knew exactly where to strike first. But when reaching the Aztec island our forces were unpleasantly surprised to see pikemen guarding their cities. :eek:
Nevertheless our expeditionary force landed and was able to overrun their most valuable but not heavily guarded city and gain control of their only source of iron. :)
As experienced later they didn´t have all their defenders upgraded, so further advance was successfully undertaken with the Glory of the Emprire, our Royal Knights. They were accompanied by the first army that has set foot on this planet. The wise military leaders decided not to fill this army to full strength yet, our elite knights were more valuable when attacking seperately.
This proved to be a great decision when the Aztec counterattack started after taking the second city. :goodjob:
The Royal Navy was busy getting reinforcements to the battlegrounds, along with a Great Leader from the Zulu campaign. This Great Leader was able to finish our Forbidden Palace within a minimum of time. This enabled us not only to ship reinforcements to the Aztecs but also to build them there.
Our pikemen defenders were stalling the assault on the northern front, gaining a lot of experience. This lead to another great event in English history. When the onslaught of the Aztec horsemen and especially the Jaguar Warriors was at it´s peak another single soldier stood out from the crowd and advanced to Leader status. He was also a great writer when not fighting and so he began the Heroic Epic, the story of the Aztec campaign! :lol:
We now control the southern part of their island along with 4 cities, our navy patrols the shores and sinks every enemy. Our losses so far were minimal, nothing compared to the Zulu or French campaign.

It is now 1000AD, the great English Empire rules most of the world and will once again start a new era of peace as soon as the last Aztec opposition is overcome.
:D
 
I'd vote for domination disabled. On standard+ sized maps it doesn't change the fact that the high score will come from a 2050 milking, it just makes luck the determining factor as to which milked game will score the most. Other than reloading once the domination limit is reached, there doesn't seem to be a reliable way to predict when domination will be triggered. Since reloading is out, figuring out domination is limited to educated guesses.

In my game I guessed that I could settle everything but the Aztec main island, and the Persian isles. When I decided to get the game over with and trigger domination, I found I was about 80 tiles off in my reckoning. I did play it conservatively, but if my guess had been off the other way, I still would have triggered domination at about the same time Sir Pleb did.

On a larger landmass game, an accidental domination victory would really set a player back score wise. On this map I don't think it will make too much of a difference, the bonus for an early finish should even things out quite a bit. Was the 40% figure while taking into account the early victory bonus? There really isn't much land to build up scoring on, and a 1340AD Emperor victory bonus is close to 3500 points (or was with 1.16f). I can only guess what SirPleb's base score was at, but with the bonus it should put him in contention still.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
Was the 40% figure while taking into account the early victory bonus?
I just went and did the math carefully. My 40% seat of the pants guess (which is after allowing for the bonus :)) was too optimistic. My seat of the pants guesses of final scores from such early dates sure are innaccurate. Doing careful math based on notes I made shortly after 1300AD:
Territory was 1430 tiles. Let's assume that was final, grows no more to avoid Domination.
I figure that after maximizing growth and happiness, the "per-turn" score in a game can get to between 3 and 3.5 times the territory. (Each tile can get 1 for the territory, plus 2 for a happy citizen working it, plus from 0 to a bit over 1 for specialists, depending on the food it produces. Not all citizens will be happy, reducing the overall average a bit.)
On this map I think the average food/tile is lower than an average map so perhaps use a multiplier of 3.
That means final per-turn score can reach say 21,500.
I figured on ramping up to near maximum citizens+happiness over the next 150 turns.
Current per-turn score is about 8000 (is coming almost entirely from territory, much of it recently acquired.)
Allowing for average over the ramp up period and adding it all up, final score would be a bit under 11,000. Plus or minus a fair margin of course.

My actual score, including the bonus, is over 1/2 of that. (Let's call it 6000 as a very rounded number :)) So my 40% guess was off base. But I think the bonus falls an awfully long way from what can be had by playing it out. Even if final score with the way I was playing would have been just (:)) 10,000, that's still quite a bit more than what I got for the early win.
 
I'm in a better mood today, I really shouldn't have griped yesterday. It just felt like such a bitter pill at the time. There are probably many people who are rightly shaking their heads at someone moaning about a 1340AD Domination :) :) They have graciously refrained from jumping on me and I thank them!
 
Here's the story of my game:

After moving the worker south and the scout north I decided to move the settler SE before founding London. (Archipelago - want harbor, want a shot at Great Lighthouse. Especially since we're playing England.)

On the second turn I decided to try an unusual (at least for me) start. The land looked like it might be very small and sailing an extremely high priority. I researched Writing, keeping the research rate at the bare minimum to make progress, letting it take 40 turns. This got me an expensive and high priority tech at very little actual cost. I built up a cash reserve so that later research on cheaper techs could be done at high speed. Also spent a bit of cash on happiness. I really like how this worked out. It won't work with many Civs - need to be able to research an expensive tech at the start, and it helps to not have to research Pottery. I started London on a warrior but before long I changed that. There was already a scout out there and it looked like food would be in short supply for a long time. I decided to build (and rush with 1 citizen) Granary before anything else. The wines would offset the unhappiness.

After returning south and going west, I sent the scout south. (Plains looked better than desert.) After seeing the southern limits the scout came back north and finally discovered the French. I left the scout blocking the isthmus while I brought up a warrior to take his place. The scout then continued to explore the French lands. (Note: I think this shows that picking a "lucky" start direction for scouting isn't even necessaryl to bottle up the French. I was able to block them after having started the other way and not knowing they were there until a fair bit in. The French weren't interested in my start techs by the time I met them but that turns out to be no big deal from the pittance I see that they paid others for Pottery.)

I skipped the goody hut until a fair bit later, eventually opened it with a warrior when time permitted. Got Ceremonial Burial.

I decided to try to settle the entire start and SW areas before the French could arrive by sea. Spent a long time in builder mode getting all that going. Lost a number of warriors cleaning out barbarian camps - the barbarians seemed unusually strong. I micro-managed London and its neighboring towns heavily throughout this game. They had shared access to the most productive tiles. I flipped the citizens around constantly to maximize food and shields. (I.e. to minimize wastage due to over-runs.)

After Writing I decided to bet on the Horseman research path. The terrain suggested better odds of horses than iron. (Of course it turned out we had both.)

1450BC: I have researched Writing, Warrior Code, and The Wheel. I trade The Wheel to France for Bronze Working.

1225BC: I have learned Horseback Riding and start on Map Making, hoping against hope to build the Great Lighthouse. The Lighthouse is obviously a priority on this map, and even more so for England since it will trigger a Golden Age. (Better too early than too late!) I didn't think at the start that Lighthouse was likely to be buildable on Emperor level. But the F11 screen is very helpful - our status in the world suggests that most Civs had a weak start. We're far from the 6th place position I expect at this date on Emperor!

875BC: I start construction of the Lighthouse in London, shifting it to maximize production. France has already started but even with their 80% bonus, the city they're building it in hasn't a hope of building it as soon as London.

350BC: I've had Galleys exploring our borders for a while and meet the Zulus. They're quite backward so I trade Writing for two "old" techs I skipped plus some gold. I also trade them Literature for their maps and all the cash they can afford even though it isn't much. Finally, I trade my maps plus contact with the Zulu to the French, for Philosophy and some gold. My favorite kind of deal - I get tech and money, my strong rival France gets useless maps of settled areas, and contact with a Civ who now has nothing to sell to them, and has no resources to buy anything from them.

230BC: Built the Great Lighthouse and entered a Golden Age! I've started rushing Horsemen in the south and building them in the north. My many galleys positioned at the limits of our known world begin moving out.

210BC: Met India and Persia. They are a bit behind us in tech but have lots of money. I buy their maps with a combination of tech and gold. Next I made a decision which I re-made throughout the rest of the game: I did not sell them maps or contact. They appeared to be (and I later confirmed they were) too far from anyone else to get contact until Astronomy. This was a very lucky map. Not only did we and the French get off to the best start, everyone else was isolated and could be kept that way.

When I met the Aztecs some turns later I dealt with them the same way. Over the following few hundred years, I traded techs with India and Persia to get the ones they had. I then started trading all three of them techs they did not have, for the maximum cash they could afford. Eventually I drained their cash reserves completely and sometimes got a bit of gold/turn. The end result was to slow down tech advancement drastically, which is the main thing I wanted. I hoped to keep them from reaching Astronomy and meeting each other before I had enough military strength to hit them.

110BC: I attack the French.

50AD: I capture the Great Library from France. This is a very lucky break. I can now slow research to a crawl. Allow the other Civs to discover techs at their slow (unconnected) pace, then get them for free. For a long time from this point, I generally had research at zero. I sometimes hurried research of a tech I wanted a lot (Monarchy and Chivalry.) The rest of the time, zero, use cash for rushing things under Monarchy and let the Library do its work.

110AD. I give the French peace in exchange for 3 island cities they've built plus all their gold. I didn't get a Great Leader during the war with the French. I want a Forbidden Palace somewhere. The Zulu island looks like a good place - a good chance of getting a leader and a nice place to build FP, lots of shield producing tiles. I start building Swordsmen. A combined army of Horsemen and Swordsmen should work well against Impi.

290AD. The war with the Zulu begins. This war lasted a while. Horseman losses were high. But the combination of Swordsman/Horseman was deadly against Impi and eventually prevailed. (Swordsmen for frontal attacks and for defense. Horsemen to pick off weakened Impi.)

440AD. The Zulu are no more. This war produced a Great Leader and I build Forbidden Palace in the middle of the ex-Zulu territory. The first of some no-casualty wars has started. (These happened with Persia and India when they got annoyed and declared war. My Galleys just stayed out of their reach and nothing happened except one Galley I lost due to a foolish move.) I've already started sending settlers to the remote islands. There are 6 which the other Civs can't reach. I'll settle each of them to prevent any nuisance cleanup later, i.e. to prevent other Civs from settling them when they can sail.

490AD. Finished the flip to Monarchy. Production shoots up.

540AD. I declare war on France. I lost a lot of Galleys in this war - I really wanted to sink their roving Galleys before wiping them out, in case any had settlers. But their Galleys seemed to be made of steel. Before cleaning out the French I check to see what any other Civ would pay for communications with them. The top bid by a large margin is 36 gold, not worth it. I have clearly squeezed their ability to pay fairly hard by this time.

600AD. The French are no more. I enter a period of building infrastructure, rebuilding the fleet and army, and saving up for upgrading Horsemen to Knights.

970AD. My first wave of Knights and Settlers sets sail for the Aztec homeland. I will mostly raze and replace their cities, hurrying a Barracks in our first new city of course. The invasion of the Aztecs is a bit protracted but there is never any doubt of the outcome, they are hopelessly over-matched.

1250AD. The last Aztec island city falls. I decide to shoot for a Culture win. It will require an average of 298 culture/turn from this point - challenging but seems possible. I'll settle one minimum size city in each of the Persian and Indian lands, will raze everything else except one captive enemy city. I'll start by putting a serious dent into Persia, razing Sun Tzu's and the Pyramids, and establishing the beachhead town. Then pick off their cities. The fleet sets sail for Persia. As always so far I leave few defenders behind. It will be a long time yet before India or Persia can sail the seas, I will try to raze both of them before then. If I'm lucky I'll be able to upgrade to Cavalry part way through the Persian war. It won't be necessary but would make the war very quick. Time to stop waiting for the Library, from here on I want all the tech as quickly as I can learn it. I start research toward Cavalry.

1315AD. Persepolis falls easily. I settle the beachhead town. Research is going splendidly, have learned Invention, Gunpowder, and will have Chemistry soon. I'll repeatedly pick off Persian cities now as quickly as my stacks can heal and attack.

1345AD. Domination "victory"! Argghhhh. The best laid plans...

Some closing notes: The Great Lighthouse is even more valuable on this map than I guessed at the start. It is an absolute must have. Starting by learning Writing slowly and cheaply worked well, gave a nice boost. Micro-managing the "best" tiles shared by London and its neighboring cities really paid off. Keeping all rivals in the dark paid off enormously. I felt like my dice rolls were overall as unlucky as I've had. I lost a number of warriors to barbarians. I repeatedly lost between 2:1 and 3:1 attacking rival Galleys (my 3rd or 4th attacker would finally sink the damn thing :)). I got one Great Leader from 45 wins with elites. I lost an unusual number of Horsemen in my initial attack on the French. But other luck was with me - the Great Leader I got was at a good time and place, and completing the Lighthouse was great fortune. The map itself was very lucky for the way I played. That 3 Civs were entirely isolated was quite fortunate. That the French got the strongest start and built the Great Library for me was also great! This was one of the most fun maps I've played. And before this I thought I hated Archipelago maps :)
 
Yep, I also finally made it.:D

It took much of my time (too much I think) before I came to an end but it was fun.

Could have been better this time; I was in a war against persia and was forced to switch to mobilization to get my economy boosted for the naval war. At this time I had only a small fleet at all but I was the first with Ironclads.

It took some turns to build enough of them and after that I destroyed all persian ship and repelled them to their home continent.:goodjob:

I tried hard to get a city to establish a bridgehead. I got one but I decieded to raze it because I couldn´t hold it.:mad:
At this time the persians had discovered Infantry and stoped my expedition corps quickly.
After this it was a fight between Infantry and heavy Artillery bombing with small wins and losses of territory.:eek:
They didn´t want to meet me to end the war so I had to wait.

Time passed... .... .... .... ....
:eek:
In the meantime I dicovered Sanitation but I wasn´t able to build hospitals or the Battlefield Medicine because I still was in mobilization.
:eek:
Time passed... .... .... .... ....
:eek:
My government imploded...
:eek:
A lot of turns later: Peace (Never been awaited so much):cool:

Results of the war:
- destroyed persian fleet.
- lots of casualities (infantery, cavalery) on both sides;
It was a little bit like in France in WWI from my point of view.


Later in the game I have been lucky: I was the only one with aluminium.
So I started the space race an won (2048AD) without any danger of loosing it.

After all it was a interesting game. I think Emperor is a good experience level to play for competition.
And after this GotM I think I will play more often with much watercoverage.

And if you would ask me what I have learned:

Don´t use mobilization unless it is your only chance!

It took much points away from me...:cry:
 
Well...I'm running out of time, but I hope to finish my game this month. This is my 2nd GOTM and I've had a little bit of success so far. I want to thank Grey Fox, SirPleb, Bill Chin & Aeson for various tips they have shared. I was smoked by the Japenese in GOTM3.

I started out by moving my settler north and creating London there. I used BillChin's "suburb" tip and created 2 towns close to London. Of note, these towns are still major producers in the 1500's.

I used the "Swordsman Gameplan" and stockpiled them on the ithmus to the north. Once all of the land was taken, France declared war on me. I was ready. I used my stack of swordsmen, with a few horsemen and started a slow march through France. Of note, I gained a great leader. I debated what to do, and opted for an army. I then created a Heroic Epic, hoping to increase the odds of more leaders.

I took the main continent. I also gained France's wonders. The great library, great lighthouse, hanging gardens among others were now mine. The great library was very important, because I had been using the "zero science spending" strategy to increase my gold. What a payoff.

I'm now building Knights, and have invaded the Zulus.

I find that I am culturally backwards. I thought I was doing good, but everybody else is MUCH higher. This might prove to be a major problem in the near future.

Well, thats it for now. Thanks again to everybody for the tips.
 
Its now 1764, and I'm halfway thru my Zulu invasion. I've taken 3 cities, kept 2 and razed one. With one of my settler's I built a new town in Zululand. That was later captured and razed by the Zulus. During the battles, I've received 2 leaders. I think the Heroic Epic has paid off! The first leader built me Newton's University, the second is being saved for the Forbidden Palace.

I just might squeek this game in by the deadline. I hope :)

By the way, does anybody else have acccess to the History Channel? I caught a program last night about none other than...Elizabeth! Kind of ironic I thought. I believe it is a series they are running this week.
 
Is the deadline on the midnight between 28 Feb & 1 Mar or is it 2 Mar like i think some of the previous ones have been?
 
Trash:
The deadline is March 2nd at Midnight! :sleep:
I´m not sure which time zone counts but I think it would be either American Eastern time or Central European time because Matrix lives in the Netherlands.
But anyway, I think it isn´t a matter of hours! ;)

Btw, this post doesn´t belong here!
 
Now to my story!

Teaching the Aztec a Lesson (contd.)
In the following years after 1000AD the Aztec campaign continued, the Royal forces advanced and took city after city. But the casualty rate also grew, the Aztecs seemed to have adjusted to onslaught of the Royal Knights. Their resistance was in vain though, soon the last city fell. :lol:

The Time of Growing Together
Following this last invasion our Empire experienced the struggles and difficulties of forming one state with all those claimed territories. Population growth, scientific achievements and commercial activities reached a new height in this era. Several Great Projects were undertaken and successfully finished and the trade between the 3 remaining empires increased every year. :cool:
But the other empires, the Indians and Persians were foolish enough to try to disturb the newfound peace in the world. After razing some new colonies of the Indians they finally realized that we would be a much better partner than an enemy. And so we signed our first Mutual Protection Pact. But even those new friends weren´t allowed to trespass in our territory. The Persians were more aggressive in their way, even after we signed a MPP they tried to attack our empire.

The New Enemy
The Persians weren´t listening to our requests to leave our territory. They even landed 1(!) Immortal on Zululand island and suddenly declared war. :crazyeyes
For the first time our great Empire was involved in a war we didn´t want. Shortly before that we had changed our government to Democracy and experienced another boost in science and treasury. The interesting part was that even though we were almost 4 times as large as the Persians they and the Indians, too, surpasses or at least were even with us in science. :eek:
After the Persian declaration of war we modernized the Royal Navy with ironclads because most battles were fought on sea. The older Man´o´War fought along with the new units and slowly but surely we gained control of the oceans. We even traded the Indians some resources to build a navy of their own, and together we repelled all invasion attempts. The Indians are now even landing some units on the Persian island, we have no interest in it though! ;)
The 17th century right now brings new discoveries and will show again that the English are the supreme power on Earth.
:D
 
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