Civ 4, a failure made successful by money and absence of community

[Urederra]

Maybe a law is necessary. Force game companies (probably the publishers) to list a disclosure online of all the systems (specification-wise) the game has been successfully tested on. I think that is a good idea. Write your congressmen!

Best idea I read in this forums today. Completely agree. Not only the specs they used, but also the drivers too.

 

[MattJek]

This isn't a matter of whinning, this is a matter of consumer rights. Imagine if something like this happened in something other than a computer game? Game companies have realized that if something doesn't work then they can just blame it on the system and that it is impossible to create a perfectly working game. This doesn't exist in any other industry and when a product does not live up to its expectations then there is a horde of attorneys just waiting to file class action lawsuits (something I don't particularly agree with btw, attorneys are scum). The point is that there doesn't seem to be any voice or option to punish game companies for putting out a faulty product, and as was said in the OP, game review sites don't have it in their interest to give a proper review. I don't think it is any wonder why more and more people are turning to console gaming. All one has to do is read the poor grammar and horrible arguments made by the other side to see that they don't live in the real world and probably don't even hold a real job. I'm not so sure games are even touchable by the law because I believe there is a clause in the user agreement that you accept the product as is. This means that the only way to punish gaming companies is through your pocket book and as long as the fanboy idiots shell out money and show this undying loyalty no matter what, things will continue as they are.

Umm... the game runs.. its just has some minor bugs, thats all. Its not like they sold us blank disks. Its like selling a car with a faulty part. Ei radio or whatever. Its will just get replaced under warranty. A patch is exactly like that.

 

[Frewfrux]

This isn't a matter of whinning, this is a matter of consumer rights. Imagine if something like this happened in something other than a computer game?

You mean like a Microsoft product? Oh, wait, it happens all the time with Microsoft. (In my opinion they set the standard for this.)

Don't get me wrong, it's unfortunate that this industry works this way. But to expect it not to when you are surrounded by it?!? Come on.

 

[King Flevance]

In my humble opinion at the very least their should be an acknowledgment of the problems not to mention potentially an apology for their customers from Firaxis. Instead what we got was more or less a complete denial from the head of marketing who said, and I quote, "Designing a PC game to run perfectly on all of the different hardware/software configurations available today is extremely challenging...particularly for a game as big and complex as Civilization IV. We do a tremendous amount of testing before we release a game, and try to test on every conceivable configuration (including laptops). For the most part, Civ IV is running well for most folks...and any issues that have come up since the release have been addressed and fixed by our team. It's difficult to reach perfection...but we'll never stop trying!"

I love this quote. Obviously, "We do a tremendous amount of testing before we release a game, and try to test on every conceivable configuration (including laptops)." doesnt include ATI cards.

Anyways, I agree wholeheartedly with the poster. My machine is over RECOMMENDED specs as alot of people on here is. Also maintained very well. I love when people say to defrag my computer or something similar like ad-ware. OK, first off that was done already the day I bought the game. Second of all, I think we all know defragging and/or removing ad-ware isnt going to fix my graphics.
There is no such thing as a CIV gaming community anymore unless you want to see it in sides. Which in a community, there is no sides. We who the game wont work for have been shunned from the community in this case. I do know there are great people on here that sympathize. But in all honesty, although it is appreciated, it helps us only if we seek pity. For those of us not seeking pity, it does no real good other than to help us beat back the arrogant 'lucky ones' as I call them.

I agree Firaxis won't post on here because of brow beatings from mad consumers. I can understand this. The CEO isnt going to be on here. They are going to get Bob from Developing, only 1 guy of the team who is trying very hard to help us and he is going to get hate spammed. Poor Bob. I agree this would be a pointless act.

They claim they dont want to post any patch information on the site because then they would have to take bad press over the game that works on most systems. Well, tough luck bite the damn bullet and post. Have pride in what you do, admit there was accident in the game and post to let people know what you are doing to fix it. We are the people that will purchase the next game, not the damn press.

Some people believe that this bad press will cut money to fund the patch. I doubt it. Take 2 isnt on the verge of going under. And if this was a risk (for arguement sake) they should have held the game until it was ready for a better release. It wouldnt have costed them anymore money to hold the game a bit, they just wouldn't have had the money coming in from the release. If they were losing money pre-release, that wasn't our fault yet somehow we're here mopping up the sh*t end of the deal. (But that's cool, its just the few of us. Right? so far estimated at 20%) That is 1 out of every 5 people that bought the game are suffering problems. So when Gamestop here ordered 5 copies 1 person was going to have problems. When Best buy ordered 10, 2 were. These are NOT OK numbers.
"It's difficult to reach perfection...but we'll never stop trying!"
Obviously, they think acting as if nothing is wrong, is obtaining perfection.

 

[Urederra]

This means that the only way to punish gaming companies is through your pocket book and as long as the fanboy idiots shell out money and show this undying loyalty no matter what, things will continue as they are.

Who is more idiot, a person who can install a game in a PC or a person who can't?. Please, don't insult posters.

I love this quote. Obviously, "We do a tremendous amount of testing before we release a game, and try to test on every conceivable configuration (including laptops)." doesnt include ATI cards.

It works fine in my ATI cards (9500 and X800). It didn't work for people with out of date drivers.

 

[Tremo]

Again this post is just another example of a devided community and fans that are the first to line up and make excuses on the behalf of developer.

Ehm, no. It goes to say that blaming the developer for problems that a minority of the fanbase actually has, is simply not a very intelligent thing. In your post you make it very clear that you specifically blame the developers for making this game a failure just because it has technical problems. See the faulty reasoning there?

Game != technical problems

You begin your post by saying the game runs fine and you have no problems, follow up with an acknowledgment that the game "Isn't flawless" and then start excusing the gaming industry by saying... *SNIP QUOTE*

Just because I acknowledge that it runs fine isn't in conflict with me also stating that it isn't flawless. I never said it was perfect. Something running 'fine' and running 'perfectly' are two completely different things.

This is called 'twisting another man's words to suit your own need.'.

On top of that, i don't excuse the gaming company as you make it out to be. I simply don't hold them responsible for what you claim them to be responsible for. in comparison with many a game, CivIV is actually pretty successfull with it's first release when it comes to technical difficulties.

Now, if this were Battlefield 2, you'd have something to complain about.

Naturally there is an immediate but at end of the post and this is the source of the whole problem. Of course I realize that the game isn't perfect, but.... it's ok somehow... I accept it.... U should tooo....

Once again you twist my words. You should really stop that, you know. If your game doesn't run properly, you have every right to be pissed off, BUT;

1). Don't come here and expect people on a forum like this to stand in line to back you up in your revolt.
2). Don't expect a thread like this to have *any* positive reult in terms of it actually being fixed.
3). If you want some results, send a message to the gaming company in question. Show your discontent in a civil manner and don't sprout unreasonable claims like 'this game is a failure because it has technical issues!' (ofcourse neglecting to take into account that this happens to every game that is first released).

Well quite frankly I don't accept it and I do expect a new game I just paid 60 bucks for to work perfectly and if it doesn't, someone owes me an explaination. If it isn't perfect, it should say it right on the front cover of the game next to "The greatest game ever made", ... it should say "But it's not perfect and you may have some technical problems"... Then again.. they wouldn't make money if they did that would they... At the end of the day that's all it's about. The mighty dollar and unfortunatly this community does nothing to raise the standard of the product. Quite the opposite, with posts like Tremo's we are litterly costing down hill.

Well, if that's how you feel, that's how you feel. your opinion, not anyone else's.

My beef with this is, is that you try to portrait your opinion as fact. If you want to have unreasonable expectations about games, so be it. But you'll be disappointed with many more games in the future if you expect perfection. expecting perfection is a plain and simple form of self-delusion.

It's quite simply a fact that any game that has just been released, *will* experience difficulties when it first comes out. It's impossible to perfect a game while it is still being made. this doesn't even limit itself to games only, it is pretty much the case with anything on this little blue ball we call a planet. Some games have minor difficulties, other have bigger ones. This one isn't even in the 'big' catagory since it only affects a small portion of the people who bought it, instead of a community wide problem.

Perfection comes from experience. And experience cannot be gained in the workshop. You can only perfect a game, by releasing it and fix the problems you couldn't find yourself, on the road. It's that simple really.

 

[steelviper]

Well quite frankly I don't accept it and I do expect a new game I just paid 60 bucks for to work perfectly and if it doesn't, someone owes me an explaination. If it isn't perfect, it should say it right on the front cover of the game next to "The greatest game ever made", ... it should say "But it's not perfect and you may have some technical problems"... Then again.. they wouldn't make money if they did that would they... At the end of the day that's all it's about. The mighty dollar and unfortunatly this community does nothing to raise the standard of the product. Quite the opposite, with posts like Tremo's we are litterly costing down hill.

I think you've tried to confine your commentary to game development, but you actually hit the head of a much bigger nail than that. Quality is a huge issue with ALL software development.

If you bought a car, you would expect it to function as transportation. You would be rather annoyed if your car stalled, sputtered, or exploded right after you drove it off the lot. Unfortunately the same standards of quality that you find in the automotive or aviation industries don't get applied to software.

Why not? Good question. As other people were alluding to, developing software is very much an ongoing process. The complexity of the software is rising to keep pace with the increases in hardware, which makes it that much more difficult to thoroughly test the software (on even one system, let alone all possible hardware configurations). Which is not to say that complete testing is impossible. It is just that however much the developers would like to release a "perfect" program, business constraints almost universally override this impulse.

Developing software would take dramatically longer if completely tested. All that time spent developing is incurring a cost, without bringing in any income (a situation most of the number crunchers dislike). In the meantime the competition is already working on something newer and better, and if you wait around long enough you find yourself releasing something that is obsolete. Lastly, and perhaps most disturbingly, releasing a relatively stable (but not perfect) build allows for testing on a scale impossible within the company, all the while starting positive cash flow. Problems (and therefore, hopefully, fixes) will likely be found faster in the wild than could ever be found in-house.

So I am agreeing that most people are applying perhaps a lower standard of quality to software releases than elsewhere.

That being said, the people who it works for now are enjoying it now, rather than waiting with everybody else for a delayed release. The people who cannot play it at all, or who are having frequent problems, will hopefully have to wait less for a fix to the problems than they would have otherwise if they had not been able to test that particular configuration to identify a problem. (Though that is likely of little consolation during the time that you feel like you are paying to do the testing.) Lastly, a program that does not have any more patches coming is usually a dead/dying program. Software, like living beings, needs to be able to adapt in order to survive.

Having sat on both ends of this dilemma (both as a consumer frustrated by faulty software, and as a developer frustrated at being forced to release code before it is "perfect") I agree that there is a problem. Unfortunately, I don't have any solutions (but if I did, I'd write it down, sell the book and make my millions).

 

[Tremo]

If you bought a car, you would expect it to function as transportation. You would be rather annoyed if your car stalled, sputtered, or exploded right after you drove it off the lot. Unfortunately the same standards of quality that you find in the automotive or aviation industries don't get applied to software.

Well, my CD driver hasn't exploded yet

I just thought i'd lighten up the thread a bit. Although this is a relavent reply. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

A better analogy would be; 'out of a hudred cars sold, one exhaust pipe was faulty'.

The person who bought that car would be mad, but that doesn't make it a bad car.

 

[Frewfrux]

Obviously, "We do a tremendous amount of testing before we release a game, and try to test on every conceivable configuration (including laptops)." doesnt include ATI cards.

My ATI card isn't what's causing my errors...that works just great!

There is no such thing as a CIV gaming community anymore ...

We who the game wont work for have been shunned from the community ...

Which is it? Is there a community or isn't there? What do you think this forum (and others like it) are?

They claim they dont want to post any patch information on the site because then they would have to take bad press over the game that works on most systems. Well, tough luck bite the damn bullet and post. Have pride in what you do, admit there was accident in the game and post to let people know what you are doing to fix it. We are the people that will purchase the next game, not the damn press.

Where are you getting you information from? From what I've heard (on these forums) there's a patch that will be released in about a week or two. Pretty quick response for the gaming industry.

Obviously, they think acting as if nothing is wrong, is obtaining perfection.

How long have you given them to act? A week or two? Can no one see how unrealistic this is?!?

 

[Tae]

It is the issues that are brought up in this thread as to why PC gaming has been on decline for a few years. More and more developers leaving for the stable hardware of console gaming even though they pay a price for the licensing.

Most of this thread I don't understand if you have ever been a fan Sid Meier's games before CIV. Firaxis is one of the few PC developers I completely trust to make the software better after release. And their games don't nearly have as many issues I have experienced with other developers. CIV is probably the most ambitious game technically they have ever done, so I am willing to have even more patience. Fact is the game is great out of the box for most, and the modibility will keep this game freash for years to come. You don't get that with console games, which unfortunately developers like Firaxis might flee to if consumers support forces them too.

Microsoft was supposed to fix all this crap with DirectX, but they can't force the hardware makers not to try and gain an edge on the competition which can break combatibility.

 

[Frewfrux]

Thank you Tae.

 

[Zhahz]

But one should expect the game to run if it meets the rec. specs on the box, yes?

Not necessarily because the way those specs are met involves a huge variety of factors.

With hardwarethere are large numbers of vendors for every component in your PC and a huge number of possible variations amongst almost every component too even within vendors. We might even own the exact same retail PC from a huge vendor and have different components inside since huge vendors change parts to optimize profits or just have similar parts from multiple vendors themselves.

It is simply impossible for anyone to test every possible PC configuration. There will always be potential for any given PC to not run a piece of software even if it meets or beats requirements.

This does not even take into account the fact that on top of all possible hardware configurations no developer can ever know what miserable state your PC might be in. For ex, you might be:

- Running an ancient OS with no service packs or other updates
- You could have a virus
- You could have spyware, malware, 3rd party utilities, whateverware running full time on your PC hosing who knows what
- You could have outdated device drivers
- You could have an outdated bios
- You could have a ridiculously fragmented hard drive

Lots of potential problems - and regardless of how computer literate you might be it's up to YOU to make sure your PC runs well - not software companies.

There are a multitude of problems your PC could have - and you might be able to run all kinds of software just fine without ever knowing it - until you finally buy that once piece of software that has some kind of incompatability or problem coexisting with other software on your PC.

So combine the huge amount of possible PC configs compounded with the multitude of possible software-related problems a PC could have, and there is definitely a chance that your PC might not run a given piece of software period.

Now granted - if a lot of users are having the exact same problem with a similar configuration there might actually be a problem with the software that slipped through. It happens. Game programmers, testers, designers are nearly godlike in general but they simply are not perfect and mistakes can be made.

I'm sure Firaxis did test a lot of different configs - but there's no way they could test them all.

I would guess that a couple hundred thousand people have bought Civ IV by now. I would further guess that the vast majority of those people can play the game just fine. Most people do not post on forums and even if they do the might not indicate that the game runs fine for them. If you do have a problem with the game you are more likely to be posting - either to rant and blow off steam or to seek solutions. Even if 10,000 people are posting about tech problems that's still a very small slice out of several hundred thousand.

I haven't read all the reviews for Civ IV - there are just too many. But I did read some from the usual biggies and not one of them mentioned tech issues - and those reviewers usually run games on a few different configs and never hesitate to mention tech issues.

So, yes some people are having problems. As with any big game release it can easily seem like a lot of people are having problems just because there are outlets like this forum and a LOT of people buying and discussing the game in general.

Civ IV is not a failure by any stretch.

Hopefully those with tech issues will be helped with a patch or two. Just realize that it takes a while to code, test, and build up a patch for release, so there isn't likely to be an instant solution, and it's also quite likely that the first patch will not fix every possible issue on the planet.

 

[xguild]

Often times when I create a post, I recieve a lot of well thought out posts that challenge the foundation of what I said initially. Often times even changing my own point of view or bringing to light sides of the issues that I hadn't thought off. For the most part however, in this particular case it seems not only was I 100% right, but every post up to this one has helped to make my point even stronger. Everything said so far lines up perfectly with exactly what I'm talking about and exactly why nothing in this industry will change, more importantly however will likely get worse.

Everything said here has been an excuse for the industry. It's hard to make games for all configurations.... It's impossible to test everything... It doesn't have that many bugs.... There aren't that many people with problems.... ..

Excuses, nothing more. Excuses coming from the consumer on the behalf of an industry who's standards have done nothing but declined since it's very begining. What's also sad to me is how short everyones memories are. Only one person on this forum remembers that when Civ 3 was released, right on the box it said "Multiplayer", but actually had none. Without a word in the expansion we got a multiplayer that didn't work at all and it wasn't until a 2nd expansion that we recieved a multiplayer component that functioned on some level. They sold us a game and two expansions and we swallowed it up like the hogs that we are.

I'm done making excuses for these companies and although I'm going to stand on this podium on my own, at least I'll know that I made my stand. The rest of you guys can continue to make excuses until one day, undoubtly very soon a game will be released that you have problems with and when you hit the forums to share your outrage you can look forward to a slew of flames and excuses on the behalf of the developers. Perhaps I'm becoming jaded, but I doubt you'll get any pitty from me.

 

[King Flevance]

It works fine in my ATI cards (9500 and X800). It didn't work for people with out of date drivers.

Mine are up to date plus I tired slew of other older ones until I got bored doing it. Then just played with crappy graphics.

My ATI card isn't what's causing my errors...that works just great!

I was reffering to the amount of problems KNOWN about by most people having problems with ATI cards. Some ATI cards did work. I did a comedic exaggeration as a joke.

Which is it? Is there a community or isn't there? What do you think this forum (and others like it) are?

There is no such thing as a CIV gaming community anymore unless you want to see it in sides. Which in a community, there is no sides. We who the game wont work for have been shunned from the community in this case.

There isnt one unless you want to view it in this example I posted where we unlucky people experiencing problems have been shunned. Most arrogant people would rather attack us than listen to what we have to say.

Where are you getting you information from? From what I've heard (on these forums) there's a patch that will be released in about a week or two. Pretty quick response for the gaming industry.

How long have you given them to act? A week or two? Can no one see how unrealistic this is?!?

Mostly from people on here and their ideas of why Firaxis was doing the right thing. BTW IMO 3, almost 4 weeks is not fast response. Maybe to you but when they hype up a game and 20% of people can't play it 3-4 weeks is slow.
I boght the game on release day actually reserved a copy. So since October 24th. A month next Thursday.
You may be ok with spending 60 bucks on a game that was hyped for a month and then not hearing any news as to fixes for another month but I am not. When I spend money, I would have prefered they keep it an extra month to make sure NO ONE had to wait for them AFTER aleready buying the game. I can safely say, I would be the guy agreeing about this even if the game had worked for me out of the box.
I have already been that guy a couple times now. Like AOE2 AOC. That game was crappy release too. (Microsoft)

 

[MattJek]

Often times... I hate when this forum is littered with posts like yours.

 

[Aeson]

I don't know about you guys, but as far as I know non of the issues that have come up have been fixed!! People found "work arounds" for a small number of the things involving relativly complex set of instructions that the average non-computer litterate person probobly couldn't follow. These however didn't come from Firaxis, they came from the fan base and they were resolutions for 2-3 issues that were resolved on the 2nd or 3rd day of release. Then they were posted on the main website as the sole thing anyone needed to do to fix the issues with this game. The rest of the problems haven't been addressed at all and we have no way of knowing if they will be addressed in the patch since there has been absolutly no official word whatsover about the patch.

The ATI/PAK issue had a fix 30 hours after release, which originated from Firaxis. Several other issues that aren't as widespread have workarounds or fixes now, and Firaxis has also had their hand in fixing some of them too. Just because helpful gamers have also found some fixes doesn't negate that. (And it certainly doesn't mean the gaming community sucks.)

There are still other problems to be fixed for sure, but ignoring what Firaxis has done doesn't seem any more fair or helpful than the behavior you are arguing against.

It's sad, but we can all look forward to an industry that's going to continue to decline in quality. Not so long ago games that were released with issues were shunned by the gaming community with a single breath and the bad media would litterly put companies out of business. The result was a fear by developers and publishers to release bad product, knowing that the cost of doing so would be severe. Today, there is absolutly no fear, they can put out buggy untested games and we swallow the bull**** and call it ice cream, this not just coming from the many online magazines but from the actual gaming community.

It would be nice is game quality was better. It wasn't really any better in the past though. Some extraordinarily bad DOS games were released. Games that even if they installed or worked had no reason to be played. Even good games back then had their problems. Production values were extremely low in comparison, there was little to no multiplayer options at all for most games, and tech support often ended up being a troubleshooting guide in the back of the manual. Even Civ I had it's problems. I could never finish a game the way I wanted because by the time I had about 3/4 the world covered in cities, the game would crash. Every time. And it was one of my favorites.

But a good share of us didn't have the internet back then. We couldn't come to a website and get help or share experiences with thousands of other gamers and find patches. There is far more gaming community these days than there was 10-15 years ago. With it comes the fact that there are far more complaints to notice, and more spam to wade through. Instead of it just being you and a couple of friends from the neighborhood comparing experiences, it's you and several thousand comparing. If you are selective in what you listen too nowdays, it can seem like an overwhelming number of problems exist, when in reality it may just be a small percentage.

What's worse is that game reviews these days are litterly for sale. After all if you have a website like gamespot.com and you have a HUGE Civilization 4 add on the front banner of your website which you are collecting top marketing dollar for, how could you possibly give the game anything but a steller review.

If I buy a game and don't agree with the review, that reviewer has lost credibility in my eyes, and perhaps my traffic to their site. While you are right that they have an interest in the games they associate themselves with doing well, you ignore that they also have an interest in being considered a credible source.

I'm disgusted with what's going on with this industry, not just because of the complete absence of quality, but because there is absolutly no gamer community anymore, just a bunch of loan wolves that do and say whatever they want with abosulty no thought whatsover. In fact we can expect more of the same in the future.

You have acknowleged that the Civ community has helped find a lot of fixes and workarounds to problems that players have been having with Civ 4. You say there is no community though? How is disregarding everything that is good about the online community to be considered a community building project?

So far there have been half a dozen posts and not a single constructive post. This makes my point even further, not only do we blindly support the industry despites it's many failures, but we don't even read each others posts anymore. What a weak community this really is and how sad is the shape of the PC gaming industry today.

To me, this illustrates the problem very well. Those with really nothing of value to say post quickly, as it doesn't take any time to respond in that manner. You get fed up with it within an hour, and say there is no community. Having given the community, no real chance to even respond before you've made your indictment.

It's a lack of patience. It takes a minute to type out a meaningless troll post. It takes a lot longer to type out an intelligent response to the rather lengthy OP though. And how much of the community is going to have seen your post within an hour anyways? Mostly the mods and spammers (should I differentiate between the two groups? ) who are always here.

The same deal with waiting for a patch. It also only takes a minute to type out "My game doesn't work, this sucks!" It takes much longer to first get a technical explaination from a player (especially if they are in "it sucks" mode), find out what the problem is, and put together a patch. To cover all the issues so that "this patch doesn't fix anything", even though it may fix many things, isn't so common.

Yes, it sucks to not be able to play the game. But have some patience, things of value take time. Be it a patch from Firaxis, or constructive posts from the gaming community.

 

[steelviper]

Well, my CD driver hasn't exploded yet

I just thought i'd lighten up the thread a bit. Although this is a relavent reply. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

A better analogy would be; 'out of a hudred cars sold, one exhaust pipe was faulty'.

The person who bought that car would be mad, but that doesn't make it a bad car.

My point isn't about about quality control so much as the expectations or standards that are applied. The person who bought the car is EXPECTED to be mad, whereas the person who buys software with defects apparently should EXPECT some initial defects (that may be fixed later with a patch). Also, a car that that shipped with 100 out of 100 faulty exhaust pipes would probably gain a bad reputation, whereas a program that ships with defects that affect 100% of users is the norm.

I'm glad they finally released a statement, though. Effective communication with the clients can make the process a whole lot less painful all-around.

 

[Tremo]

Often times when I create a post, I recieve a lot of well thought out posts that challenge the foundation of what I said initially. Often times even changing my own point of view or bringing to light sides of the issues that I hadn't thought off. For the most part however, in this particular case it seems not only was I 100% right, but every post up to this one has helped to make my point even stronger. Everything said so far lines up perfectly with exactly what I'm talking about and exactly why nothing in this industry will change, more importantly however will likely get worse.

Everything said here has been an excuse for the industry. It's hard to make games for all configurations.... It's impossible to test everything... It doesn't have that many bugs.... There aren't that many people with problems.... ..

Excuses, nothing more. Excuses coming from the consumer on the behalf of an industry who's standards have done nothing but declined since it's very begining. What's also sad to me is how short everyones memories are. Only one person on this forum remembers that when Civ 3 was released, right on the box it said "Multiplayer", but actually had none. Without a word in the expansion we got a multiplayer that didn't work at all and it wasn't until a 2nd expansion that we recieved a multiplayer component that functioned on some level. They sold us a game and two expansions and we swallowed it up like the hogs that we are.

I'm done making excuses for these companies and although I'm going to stand on this podium on my own, at least I'll know that I made my stand. The rest of you guys can continue to make excuses until one day, undoubtly very soon a game will be released that you have problems with and when you hit the forums to share your outrage you can look forward to a slew of flames and excuses on the behalf of the developers. Perhaps I'm becoming jaded, but I doubt you'll get any pitty from me.

Yes, a nice way to excuse yourself from backing up your claims by dancing around the center issue that you yourself brought up in the first place. I love it when people portrait their opinions as fact and then say something like this to make it look like they 'won' the debate (which is impossible anyway, since debates cannot be 'won'). Good going!

I respect the fact that you have your own opinion on things, as i've got my own opinions. But don't try to make it look like you're the only one that can possibly be right and solitarily make out that your opinion equal truth. That simply goes to show that your main reaosn for posting this is to boast about your self-proclaimed omniscient capabilities.

a game will be released that you have problems with

*NEWSFLASH*

Already been there. But it doesn't mean just because i'm mad about something that I would aim all that anger into blaming someone unless there is reason to do so.

Stop making it look like you're the only one who has ever experienced this kind of thing. Also stop making it look like you're the only one who knows the truth about it.

 

[Tae]

You could always just by a console gaming system and let PC do what it was design for, productivety programs.

 

[DaveDash]

Often times when I create a post, I recieve a lot of well thought out posts that challenge the foundation of what I said initially. Often times even changing my own point of view or bringing to light sides of the issues that I hadn't thought off. For the most part however, in this particular case it seems not only was I 100% right, but every post up to this one has helped to make my point even stronger. Everything said so far lines up perfectly with exactly what I'm talking about and exactly why nothing in this industry will change, more importantly however will likely get worse.

Everything said here has been an excuse for the industry. It's hard to make games for all configurations.... It's impossible to test everything... It doesn't have that many bugs.... There aren't that many people with problems.... ..

Excuses, nothing more. Excuses coming from the consumer on the behalf of an industry who's standards have done nothing but declined since it's very begining. What's also sad to me is how short everyones memories are. Only one person on this forum remembers that when Civ 3 was released, right on the box it said "Multiplayer", but actually had none. Without a word in the expansion we got a multiplayer that didn't work at all and it wasn't until a 2nd expansion that we recieved a multiplayer component that functioned on some level. They sold us a game and two expansions and we swallowed it up like the hogs that we are.

I'm done making excuses for these companies and although I'm going to stand on this podium on my own, at least I'll know that I made my stand. The rest of you guys can continue to make excuses until one day, undoubtly very soon a game will be released that you have problems with and when you hit the forums to share your outrage you can look forward to a slew of flames and excuses on the behalf of the developers. Perhaps I'm becoming jaded, but I doubt you'll get any pitty from me.

I agree with everything you're trying to say 100%.

I am a part-time Civ fan. Im more an avid Total War fan. The Total War community has equally turned its back on the developers for releasing a bugged, incomplete game. This kind of behaviour from Developers and Publishers is not to be tolerated any longer.

Even in the Total War community however, the game ran perfectly stable on many many peoples PC, despite the fact it was a rushed and incomplete product. If CA can do it, surely Firaxis can.

I also dont see what the big hopla is over Civ4. It's not a revolutionary step over Civ3 at all, heck in many ways its a step backwards. 3D graphics, woop de do. They're not even that good.
Game of the year? Absolutely not. If it is, it just goes to show the lacklusture games that have been published this year.

For the record:

Civ4 runs perfectly on my machine [one CTD around the year 1960 so far], first time. I dont have updated drivers, and I don't have a 'clean' [as in reformatted] OS.

If I had to completely reformat my machine every time a new game came out, just to get it to work, i'd stick to console gaming.

Also whats with the Microsoft bashing? In terms of games, they release excellent, stable, and relatively bug free games. I just bought Dungeon Siege 2, it ran fine on my PC, ran fine on my laptop which is about 3 years old now, and I havn't even considered looking for a patch for it.