Civ 4, a failure made successful by money and absence of community

[DaveDash]

Personally I believe lots of the problems with Civ4 come from using xml. XML is extremely resource hungry and quite an ineffecient system on terms of resouces.

I run a few python/xml apps, very small apps, and they routinely take up 300MB of ram.

 

[Bhruic]

It's more the fact that big named games are being released in a worse and worse condition, relying on the 'sales first patch later' matra.

Yes, that's true. On the other hand, developers and/or publishers could make a very valid claim that they are simply acceding the demands of the customer. Consider, how many times when a game is "delayed" do we hear large numbers of complaints?

Civ4 has LOTS of problems. 'Some' problems are OK, minor bugs are OK, but when so many people can't play the game, can't play it past a certain point, or have to go to great lengths to get it to work - this is unacceptable.

I don't think you've established the "so many" part. What percentage of people have had game-stopping problems? Can you say?

The point is, the people complaining, like xguild, are only asking for better products. This benefits us all.
Sitting back and accepting it will not lead to better products in the future.

No, the point is that they are being hypocritical. xguild already knew about the state of the industry before he bought the game (at least, I'm assuming he bought it, if he didn't buy it, then I apologize). Therefore, he was aware that at the release point, it was going to be buggy. And yet he bought it anyway. Someone who actually believes what he is saying wouldn't have done that, because they would have known it wouldn't have been a 'perfect release'.

Really, the only people who have the moral high-ground on that front are the people who did wait. And they may have been the smart ones (although I, personally, have had very few problems).

edit: I should point out, that the same attitude I was refering to before is happening in the 'patch' thread. People already hoping the patch will come out 'really soon'. I haven't seen anyone post "I hope that they spend a lot of time in QA with it, to try and make sure it doesn't introduce any new bugs".

So I say again, developers/publishers are just giving the public what the public seems to be asking for.

Bh

 

[Vizzini]

So basically you fan whores defend Big Business for nothing!

/shrug

So because my gaming machine doesn't suck... I'm a fanboi?

 

[Smeg]

But one should expect the game to run if it meets the rec. specs on the box, yes?

No.

Recommendations are exactly that - there isn't any guarantee saying "this will work on Ubiquitous's machine"..

Just like everything in life, things can, and DO go wrong. Anything from your tire falling off your car - to software which you bought not running properly..

As someone mentioned earlier, there are many, many, system configurations out there.. it isn't going to work on every computer, even if it's above or below the "Recommended" specs..

I don't understand why so many people cannot grab the concept of this - it's like ANY PRODUCT out there - you buy a kettle, not every kettle will work, some will be faulty - you buy a buildable desk, not every desk will fit together perfectly...etc.

All we can ask is to try and get the situation resolved as soon as possible. If it means asking a IT Guru to come round and help you out - so be it. But posting on a forum complaining and not really asking for help, is not constructive or helping anyone.

 

[Dairuka]

So basically you fan whores defend Big Business for nothing!

Welcome to the Civilization "Fanatics" Forums. A place where people who share a common interest and fan-dom in a game series called Civilization.

If you came here expecting to see anything but fans of the series, you've deluded yourself.

I understand the need for many people in the Modern Western Culture to believe themselves to be important enough to get everything they want - right now, right away.

However you can not always get what you want. This is most apparant in a game that was not specifically designed for you and your computer set up.

 

[DaveDash]

Yes, that's true. On the other hand, developers and/or publishers could make a very valid claim that they are simply acceding the demands of the customer. Consider, how many times when a game is "delayed" do we hear large numbers of complaints?

Half-Life 2 was delayed a year. It still was one of the most successful games.
One of the Civ developers used this as an example that you can still delay games. So no, I don't think delaying would hurt them at all.

I don't think you've established the "so many" part. What percentage of people have had game-stopping problems? Can you say?

"So many" relative to other communities I belong to. I havnt seen this amount of complaining about a new game, from a top notch developer, since Rome Total War.

No, the point is that they are being hypocritical. xguild already knew about the state of the industry before he bought the game (at least, I'm assuming he bought it, if he didn't buy it, then I apologize). Therefore, he was aware that at the release point, it was going to be buggy. And yet he bought it anyway. Someone who actually believes what he is saying wouldn't have done that, because they would have known it wouldn't have been a 'perfect release'.

Really, the only people who have the moral high-ground on that front are the people who did wait. And they may have been the smart ones (although I, personally, have had very few problems).

edit: I should point out, that the same attitude I was refering to before is happening in the 'patch' thread. People already hoping the patch will come out 'really soon'. I haven't seen anyone post "I hope that they spend a lot of time in QA with it, to try and make sure it doesn't introduce any new bugs".

So I say again, developers/publishers are just giving the public what the public seems to be asking for.

Bh

I have gotten many games this year [battlefield2, etc etc]. None of which have had the same complaints that Civ4 has gotten.

Judging by the amount of complaints in this forum, a small sample [and remember people who come online and post in forums are somewhat more computer savvy than your average person], I'd say Civ4 is BELOW the industry standard, how-ever dismal.

Let me tell you a little story.

When Rome Total War was released, it was stable, but FULL of annoying and irritating bugs that should NEVER have slipped through QA. This was complete evidence that the product was rushed and flawed.

The developers, who actively post in forums, for a while bitterly denied these bugs existed. They blamed them on mods, hardware, and everything you could think of.

The Total War community did not relent however, and when time came for the expansion pack, Barbarian Invasion, to our pleasant surprize almost everything we bitterly complained about was fixed.

I seriously doubt that would have happened if we just said 'Oh well - giving us a buggy/unstable game is to be expected in this day and age'.

 

[Bhruic]

Half-Life 2 was delayed a year. It still was one of the most successful games.
One of the Civ developers used this as an example that you can still delay games. So no, I don't think delaying would hurt them at all.

I didn't say anything about hurting them. I said they are giving the customers what they seem to be asking for.

"So many" relative to other communities I belong to. I havnt seen this amount of complaining about a new game, from a top notch developer, since Rome Total War.

I generally see this level of complaints from any game I play, if I frequent forums for it. There's always some people it won't work for, and always some people who dislike the game, and feel the need to vent over it. I can't say Civ IV is any worse in that regard.

Judging by the amount of complaints in this forum, a small sample [and remember people who come online and post in forums are somewhat more computer savvy than your average person], I'd say Civ4 is BELOW the industry standard, how-ever dismal.

I didn't say you couldn't say it. It is, however, merely your opinion, and has nothing factual to back it up.

Let me tell you a little story.

No need to tell me the story, I lived through it. However, I think your conclusion is tremedously flawed. The reason the bugs got fixed is because people did detailed studies of them, and could show (and demonstrate) them to CA.

Is that what we are getting here? Not at all. So I'm not sure what you think you were demonstrating with your 'little story'.

Bh

 

[DaveDash]

I didn't say anything about hurting them. I said they are giving the customers what they seem to be asking for.

Considering in their own words they would have been quite happy to delay it, if -they- thought there were problems, I don't think this had anything to do with it.

I generally see this level of complaints from any game I play, if I frequent forums for it. There's always some people it won't work for, and always some people who dislike the game, and feel the need to vent over it. I can't say Civ IV is any worse in that regard.

Like what? Since you seem to be harping on about evidence, what other games do you know of that have received this level of technical bitterness?

I didn't say you couldn't say it. It is, however, merely your opinion, and has nothing factual to back it up.

I don't see you throwing around facts.

No need to tell me the story, I lived through it. However, I think your conclusion is tremedously flawed. The reason the bugs got fixed is because people did detailed studies of them, and could show (and demonstrate) them to CA.

Is that what we are getting here? Not at all. So I'm not sure what you think you were demonstrating with your 'little story'.

Bh

Way to miss the point.

. <---- my point

O <---- your head.

My point was is that VOICING YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT A GAME, INSTEAD OF SITTING AND TAKING IT, MAKES IT BETTER FOR EVERYONE.

This HAPPENED in Total War. Are you denying this?

This is really starting to frustrate me. This game clearly isnt perfect, otherwise there wouldn't be so many complaints. But fanboys decidated to the developer [The original devs didnt even have much to do with this game!] with the 'My game is better than your game' syndrome stuck in their heads have this backward attitude that they must defend the said developer at all costs, despite the fact giving constructive critism would be better overall for the community.
This isn't done for nothing. This isn't like the Rome Total Realism project where people spend their spare time giving something to the community. These guys are being payed GOOD money to do this, and we are PURCHASING their product. It's not like they're doing a favour to us and thus are immune to our critism.

I don't even think, to be quite honest, that Civ4 is that good. It doesnt deserve such feverish devotion.

I guarentee in 6 months time, when the 'Ohh-Ahh' factor of the game has worn off, people might be less fanboyish about the game, and more willing to try and offer constructive critism to improve it. By then however, it will be too late for FREE patches and we'll have to wait for an xpack.

 

[Dairuka]

<----- This is my head.

<----- This is my head after reading through Dave and Bhruic's arguements.

<----- This is my head after deciding to stop reading Dave and Bhuric's arguements, and instead opting to go play Civilization 4. Bye. =)

 

[DaveDash]

<----- This is my head.

<----- This is my head after reading through Dave and Bhruic's arguements.

<----- This is my head after deciding to stop reading Dave and Bhuric's arguements, and instead opting to go play Civilization 4. Bye. =)

LOL. Have fun.

I'm at work, so I have nothing better to do than argue

 

[Bhruic]

Considering in their own words they would have been quite happy to delay it, if -they- thought there were problems, I don't think this had anything to do with it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that statement. My point was that gamers tend to want to get games "now", rather than waiting, even if the game turns out to have bugs. So if a developer/publisher releases it "early", when it has bugs, one could say that they are simply giving their customers what they are asking for.

Could they not do that? Of course. But choosing not to do it doesn't invalidate my point.

Like what? Since you seem to be harping on about evidence, what other games do you know of that have received this level of technical bitterness?

I'm only harping about evidence when you try and pass your opinion off as fact. I specifically said what "I generally see". I'm not suggesting that makes it true in general, that's merely my experience.

I don't see you throwing around facts.

No, I'm not throwing around facts. Because I'm not trying to prove a point. When you state something as a fact, you need proof to back it up. Otherwise, what you call a "fact" is merely an "opinion". There's nothing wrong with having or stating your opinion. I'm not trying to suggest you don't. Just don't pretend it's a fact.

Way to miss the point.

Way to descend to personal attacks? Is there some reason you seem to be getting upset about this?

My point was is that VOICING YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT A GAME, INSTEAD OF SITTING AND TAKING IT, MAKES IT BETTER FOR EVERYONE.

This HAPPENED in Total War. Are you denying this?

The phrase "voicing your concerns" is much too open-ended for general usage in this sense. What "happened" with RTW was a great deal of exploring of various game bugs. There was a great deal of discussion about the various game bugs. And in the end, a great many of them were fixed, to some degree.

However, all of the people saying things like "This game sucks", or "It's way too buggy", or "They totally screwed up combat", who you might say were "voicing their concerns" did little to nothing to make the game "better for everyone".

Bh

 

[BlueLikeYou]

Wow there are some really nasty comments in this thread

I would like to point out though that it just seems to be a matter of luck whether or not you will have problems with this game. From all the people who have posted problems, their systems run from low to high end, so its not simply a matter of system specs. And drivers and such don't seem to be the issue either, since there is no agreement on which drivers work best (old/new/beta).

If people would just stop insulting each other's intelligence, computers, etc. it would do a lot to alleviate the tension around here.

 

[Frewfrux]

Well...I would like data. The origonal message claimed that there were a lot of people who couldn't play the game (or were playing it in a diminished capacity) due to bugs. So, I created a poll to find out if it was true. Lets see what comes of this...

 

[rd_syringe]

My big problem is the fact that tooltips randomly turn off, then on again. Since I'm not keen on referring to a manual when I play, I try to learn by using the tooltips to find out what tech I want to research next (have to do it this way since they took out all the hyperlinks...). It's frustrating when these tooltips disappear for no reason and I end up possibly regretting researching a tech because I missed a piece of info. The tooltips also disappear for other leaders when I'm talking to them, so I can't see what their grievances against me are.

 

[King Flevance]

Its just "Round 12" of (Unlucky Civ fans vs. Lucky/*power user* Civ fans)

 

[xguild]

And the point I am making is this: The gaming industry is not the only industry in which this happens. In fact, its standard business practice. Either get used to it, or fight it at it's source. (And if you think that the source is the gaming industry you need a reality check.)

I totally, 100% agree with you whole Heartedly. The gaming industry is not the only one that has shotty craftmenship or issues. You are right, it's standard business practice to release sub par software. And you are absolutly right that I have to get used to it and more importantly you are correct the gaming industry is not to blame, it is in fact gaming communities like this one is that are to blame. You have made my point percisly, I don't think I could have put it better myself.

The gaming industry does work based on allowable consequences, what we as consumers allow them to get away with is exactly what they will get away with. If we accept shotty craftmenship, then that's exactly what the new standard will be as is the case with the gaming industry. It's percisly my point. We as a community have made this game a huge success despite the very OBVIOUS fact that the game is plaqued with problems. The worse part is that you are totally correct that I have absolutly no voice and I have to get used to it. With soooo many fanboys out there ready to throw themselves in traffic to defend the developers of these poorly constructed games, I have absolutly no chance of making change. I just have to swallow it like everyone else or stop playing all together.

 

[DaveDash]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that statement. My point was that gamers tend to want to get games "now", rather than waiting, even if the game turns out to have bugs. So if a developer/publisher releases it "early", when it has bugs, one could say that they are simply giving their customers what they are asking for.

Could they not do that? Of course. But choosing not to do it doesn't invalidate my point.

Im pretty sure if you asked many people here if they would have rather waited for a more complete game, they would have been happy.

Heck, I usually buy games a few weeks after they're released anyway.

I'm only harping about evidence when you try and pass your opinion off as fact. I specifically said what "I generally see". I'm not suggesting that makes it true in general, that's merely my experience.

Quote where I have said 'Fact is..'.

No, I'm not throwing around facts. Because I'm not trying to prove a point.

Then what are you doing here?

When you state something as a fact, you need proof to back it up.

When have I stated anything as fact?

Otherwise, what you call a "fact" is merely an "opinion". There's nothing wrong with having or stating your opinion. I'm not trying to suggest you don't. Just don't pretend it's a fact.

Such as when?

Way to descend to personal attacks? Is there some reason you seem to be getting upset about this?

Calling you names is a personal attack. Saying you missed the point is an observation.

Anyway, I don't want you to reply to anything above. You are making a strawman argument. You should accept someones opinion on the internet as opinion, unless otherwise noted.

You are trying to twist this argument around into somewhere where you feel you have the high ground, but really is a strawman argument and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The phrase "voicing your concerns" is much too open-ended for general usage in this sense. What "happened" with RTW was a great deal of exploring of various game bugs. There was a great deal of discussion about the various game bugs. And in the end, a great many of them were fixed, to some degree.

However, all of the people saying things like "This game sucks", or "It's way too buggy", or "They totally screwed up combat", who you might say were "voicing their concerns" did little to nothing to make the game "better for everyone".

Bh

So pray tell then exactly where in the original post was 'This game sucks' implied?

Voicing your concerns that you wont accept such a poor product in a mature manner, such as this original poster has done, is a good way to send a message to developers and publishers about exactly what the community wants. If enough people did it, they'd start listening, such as they did in Total War.

And what do you know, they might actually release a satisfactory product? Fancy that.

You know what else frustrates me, when people try to twist their arguments around into something completely unrelated.

This is going to be the THIRD attempt now that I try and get back on topic. I dont want to talk about what is fact or what is opinion, leave your twisting tactics for someone else.

I am claiming that voicing your concerns about a game in a mature manner is only constructive. I want you to talk about this, not anything else. Stop trying to lead this discussion astray.

 

[xguild]

Yes, that's true. On the other hand, developers and/or publishers could make a very valid claim that they are simply acceding the demands of the customer. Consider, how many times when a game is "delayed" do we hear large numbers of complaints?



I don't think you've established the "so many" part. What percentage of people have had game-stopping problems? Can you say?



No, the point is that they are being hypocritical. xguild already knew about the state of the industry before he bought the game (at least, I'm assuming he bought it, if he didn't buy it, then I apologize). Therefore, he was aware that at the release point, it was going to be buggy. And yet he bought it anyway. Someone who actually believes what he is saying wouldn't have done that, because they would have known it wouldn't have been a 'perfect release'.

Really, the only people who have the moral high-ground on that front are the people who did wait. And they may have been the smart ones (although I, personally, have had very few problems).

edit: I should point out, that the same attitude I was refering to before is happening in the 'patch' thread. People already hoping the patch will come out 'really soon'. I haven't seen anyone post "I hope that they spend a lot of time in QA with it, to try and make sure it doesn't introduce any new bugs".

So I say again, developers/publishers are just giving the public what the public seems to be asking for.

Bh

I really don't think it's hypicritical of me to buy the game know the current state of the industry and then come on the forum to complain about the shotty product. Change doesn't happen on it's own, it happens through the demand for it. I'm voiceing my concerns because I want it to change and because I am a fan of gaming. I was hoping by challenging the success of Civ 4, an obviously faulty product, the community would jump on board, what I got instead was a lot of "shut up about your problem" or "Here is a dozen excuses why buggy software is ok".

I think what a lot of you guys don't seem to get is that you would do a lot more for the improvement of the industry by simply not saying anything, rather then actually defending the current standard for game developing which is severly lacking in quality. So your one of the lucky ones that the games works for, why would you try to disclaim legitimate complaints about the game and re-enforce the mantra of "Buggy Games Are OK" that the industry is currently singing and getting away with.

I just don't get it, do you guys like buggy games?

 

[Frewfrux]

I totally, 100% agree with you whole Heartedly.

It seems we actually do agree. Wow.

I think that the only point at which we disagree is whether or not this should be the case.

While I don't think it *should* be the case, I do acknoledge the reason it is and can accept this. (The reason being the cost prohibitivness of trying for perfection.) But maybe that's a topic for another post on another forum

 

[Venger]

This is appaling.

The man writes a well written post about how the game has some flaws in it that he would like to see fixed. A game that he has payed money for. Money that was earned by doing some sort of work. He has a right to demand a fix for a game he has payed good money for.

This game is running just fine for me, but I will never tell people who are having problems that they are not allowed to complain. Ubiquitous is right. Seriously ask yourself why you are defending a company you have no real connection with so passionately. To say someone is too stupid, or doesn't have enough money to upgrade to the latest hardware, and then say thats the reason the game doesnt work is the most irresponsible thing you could do. There used to be a time when mininum requirements would run the game as it should be run. At no point on the box does it say, if you play with minimum requirements you will not be able to run this game properly.

Telling him that he should go do something else with his life if he doesnt like the game is about the most assanine thing you could tell him. He PAYED for the game. Throwing 60 bucks down on a game, having it not work, and then saying "Oh well! That doesn't work, won't play that". That sounds like a good idea to you, you wouldnt be immensly pissed that you just threw away 60 bucks?

Christ just give him some respect, he's not being lame about it.

You sir have my compliments...

Venger