Civ 6: Greece/ Sparta ( Anti Gorgo )

[darkwolf1999999]

I'm not sexist before you say that.. I don't want her removed because she is female.. I want her removed because she makes no sense at all.. She hardly did anything for Sparta.. While her husband did.. Leonidas I fought to his last breath to defend Sparta from the Persians.. With bravery and honor... He commanded Sparta's small army with high success against a huge amount of enemies.. And managed to win many battles.. What did she do? She advised Leonidas.. That's it.. Just wisdom.. Just to put this the easy way..

Making Gorgo the leader instead of Leonidas is like making Albert Prince Consort the leader of England instead of Queen Victoria.. Just because he gave her "political wisdom"....

Or making Mark Antony the leader of Egypt instead of Cleopatra...

You shouldn't pick leaders just because of their gender.. Just to give "equal opportunity" because picking people based on their gender is sexist in its own regards...

If you wanted to add more female leaders you could of added so many leaders instead, that actually did amazing things for their nations... For example...

Olga of Kiev ; She is known for her obliteration of the Drevlians, a tribe that had killed her husband Igor of Kiev, and for her efforts to spread Christianity through the Rus... She was venerated as a saint...

Or

Empress Suiko of Japan; First reigning empress of Japan in recorded history and ruled Japan for 35 years in till her death.. There was a civil war happening before she came to power between two clans and she brought peace..

Don't these two women sound way better then Gorgo? And it only took be 5 minutes to find them...

So please change Gorgo to Leonidas I if you do add Sparta.. Also if you want to add more females use the ones i used as examples.. Olga of Kiev is a great bet...

Spoiler :

 

[Krajzen]

I have read her wikipedia page and it essentislly said "well we know nothing about her except being allegedly decent wife of famous husband"
so I consider her inclusion to be worse idea than Catherine di Medici, who at least was powerful and interesting (if controversial)

 

[Atlas627]

I have read her wikipedia page and it essentislly said "well we know nothing about her except being allegedly decent wife of famous husband"
so I consider her inclusion to be worse idea than Catherine di Medici, who at least was powerful and interesting (if controversial)

I read her Wikipedia page too, and it pointed out several things that are important.

1) We know of her name at all. This means she had power and influence, and demonstrated something noteworthy in at least one major scenario.

2) Leonidas' entire defense would've been impossible without her, as she figured out how to read the warning message that said the Persians were coming to attack. Keep in mind that the fact that anyone else listened to her at all suggests that she must have been known for being clever and intelligent, which probably means she did it frequently.

3) She also advised her father against supporting the Ionian revolt. This is important because the Ionian revolt is the one that caused the whole Persian invasion, she was allowed (in direct contravention of the speaker's request) to bear witness to the exchange, and her father listened to her advice and *followed* it.

The only problem I actually see with Gorgo is that I have no idea what her Agenda should be. We don't know enough about her personal life or political views to really represent her. However, this also means she has a nice blank slate to work with, so I look forward to her inclusion in the game.

 

[Zaarin]

I have read her wikipedia page and it essentislly said "well we know nothing about her except being allegedly decent wife of famous husband"
so I consider her inclusion to be worse idea than Catherine di Medici, who at least was powerful and interesting (if controversial)

Not powerful enough to prevent her son from massacring Protestants. Not powerful enough to keep her legacy from being stained by said Protestant massacres which she actually opposed. Not powerful enough to prevent herself from being banished by her own son (even if she did eventually return). Not powerful enough to banish her husband's mistress until after his death. Not powerful enough to prevent the collapse of the Valois dynasty. In short, reading Catherine's Wikipedia page is one long list of failures. Honestly, I'd put Gorgo and Catherine in similar categories, with the key difference being that Gorgo at least has a legitimate alternative in Pericles...

 

[j51]

Yeah Gorgo's a befuddling choice, but I'm so sick of everyone's obsession with that garbage movie (I was actually in Sparti the day after it was released. The whole town was plastered with giant panels from the comic. Surreal...), that I don't mind seeing her instead of him. To future moders: There are other significant Spartan leaders besides Leonidas, but if you must use him, give him some frickin' armor. He wasn't an idiot.

 

[Tsumugi]

It seems to me that they added some female leaders for the sake of having more female leaders in the game.
In my opinion, gender should not influence the decision of choosing the leader for a civilization.

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah Gorgo's a befuddling choice, but I'm so sick of everyone's obsession with that garbage movie (I was actually in Sparti the day after it was released. The whole town was plastered with giant panels from the comic. Surreal...), that I don't mind seeing her instead of him. To future moders: There are other significant Spartan leaders besides Leonidas, but if you must use him, give him some frickin' armor. He wasn't an idiot.

If I were in my forties and my abs looked like Gerard Butler's, I'd want to show them too.

 

[Absolution]

I read her Wikipedia page too, and it pointed out several things that are important.

1) We know of her name at all. This means she had power and influence, and demonstrated something noteworthy in at least one major scenario.

2) Leonidas' entire defense would've been impossible without her, as she figured out how to read the warning message that said the Persians were coming to attack. Keep in mind that the fact that anyone else listened to her at all suggests that she must have been known for being clever and intelligent, which probably means she did it frequently.

3) She also advised her father against supporting the Ionian revolt. This is important because the Ionian revolt is the one that caused the whole Persian invasion, she was allowed (in direct contravention of the speaker's request) to bear witness to the exchange, and her father listened to her advice and *followed* it.

The only problem I actually see with Gorgo is that I have no idea what her Agenda should be. We don't know enough about her personal life or political views to really represent her. However, this also means she has a nice blank slate to work with, so I look forward to her inclusion in the game.

The problem with your number one is that you have many better female leaders.
You don't need to compromise. Even Theodora, though being "the wife of", is better.
You could add Hatshepsut, Zenobia, Arwa al-Sulayhi, Tamar of Georgia, Dou of Western Han, Wu Zetian, Myeongseong, Rudrama Devi, Mangammal, and that's without mentioning any western leader.

 

[Gabriel Sergio]

this is blasphemy, this is madness!!

 

[Ezumiyr]

I read her Wikipedia page too, and it pointed out several things that are important.

1) We know of her name at all. This means she had power and influence, and demonstrated something noteworthy in at least one major scenario.

2) Leonidas' entire defense would've been impossible without her, as she figured out how to read the warning message that said the Persians were coming to attack. Keep in mind that the fact that anyone else listened to her at all suggests that she must have been known for being clever and intelligent, which probably means she did it frequently.

3) She also advised her father against supporting the Ionian revolt. This is important because the Ionian revolt is the one that caused the whole Persian invasion, she was allowed (in direct contravention of the speaker's request) to bear witness to the exchange, and her father listened to her advice and *followed* it.

The only problem I actually see with Gorgo is that I have no idea what her Agenda should be. We don't know enough about her personal life or political views to really represent her. However, this also means she has a nice blank slate to work with, so I look forward to her inclusion in the game.

1) Except that Gorgo is known from Athenian sources. And generally, it means that it was useful to support a theory. What we know about Sparta from the texts is in fact systematically intrumentalized by one of two Athenian ideologies (basically, the "conservationists", who use the example of Gorgo to show what's the role of the women in a society ; and the "progressists", who want to show how bad the life is in "Sparta", a.k.a if the Athenian conservationists came in power). Also, everyone from that time would be called a mysogynist by modern standards.
Starting from that, everything we know about Gorgo is susceptible to be false or changed.

2-3) As far as we know, her role may have been greater than that. But it could also have been a way to show that Spartans listen to the advices of women because they are too stupid to decide by themselves.

=> My point is that we simply not know enough about her. There are other strong greek women, and even if I strongly disagree to consider Cleopatra as a Greek rather than as an Egyptian (her dynasty has been ruling over Egypt for 3 damn centuries, she's more Egyptian than most Americans are Americans - and yeah, she's not from an old dynasty, and she speaks greek, but what did you expect ? That Egypt was stuck in time ? People and cultures change over time.), even her would have been a better choice. But, well, Gorgo is probably the most famous Spartan queen.
The problem is that they wanted to have Sparta and a Woman. They didn't have much the choice.
Otherwise, they would probably have chosen Zenobia or Penelopeia.

Not powerful enough to prevent her son from massacring Protestants. Not powerful enough to keep her legacy from being stained by said Protestant massacres which she actually opposed. Not powerful enough to prevent herself from being banished by her own son (even if she did eventually return). Not powerful enough to banish her husband's mistress until after his death. Not powerful enough to prevent the collapse of the Valois dynasty. In short, reading Catherine's Wikipedia page is one long list of failures. Honestly, I'd put Gorgo and Catherine in similar categories, with the key difference being that Gorgo at least has a legitimate alternative in Pericles...

It looks like that for you, the perfect leader must be someone like Stalin or Kim Jong Il. You know, being a ruler doesn't mean that your main job is to remain in charge.

The main difference between Catherine and Gorgo is that we know almost nothing about Gorgo, and a lot about Catherine.
The second difference between the two, is that most of the litterature about Gorgo is in her favour (for whatever reason), while almost all that has been written about Catherine is very depreciative, even in recent times, because she was a stranger, whe was a woman, she lived in tough times (look at the rest of Europe), and historians were misogynist warmonger-admirers, and sometimes still have these kind of tendencies.

And we know that she did a lot for culture and whe was a talented negociator. Whe hosted one of the brightest courts in Europe for that time. The english Wiki page is really lacking because it doesn't mention what we call in french the "Légende Noire" (the "black legend") of Catherine de Médicis.

 

[Zaarin]

It looks like that for you, the perfect leader must be someone like Stalin or Kim Jong Il. You know, being a ruler doesn't mean that your main job is to remain in charge.

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that Catherine's influence is easily overstated. She was never a ruler; she's allegedly in because of the influence she had over those who were, yet clearly that influence was insufficient to advance her agenda or even prevent her own banishment. Catherine wasn't a ruler, and she wasn't even an eminence grise. She was a regent who ultimately fell victim to her own son. Hardly inspiring.

 

[Atlas627]

The problem with your number one is that you have many better female leaders.
You don't need to compromise. Even Theodora, though being "the wife of", is better.
You could add Hatshepsut, Zenobia, Arwa al-Sulayhi, Tamar of Georgia, Dou of Western Han, Wu Zetian, Myeongseong, Rudrama Devi, Mangammal, and that's without mentioning any western leader.

I didn't say there weren't better female leaders. I can name many as well. I would not have chosen Gorgo.

But the claim was that Gorgo is inherently undeserving. That she did nothing. That she cannot work in the game because we have no personality to go off of. That is what I contested.

1) Except that Gorgo is known from Athenian sources. And generally, it means that it was useful to support a theory. What we know about Sparta from the texts is in fact systematically intrumentalized by one of two Athenian ideologies (basically, the "conservationists", who use the example of Gorgo to show what's the role of the women in a society ; and the "progressists", who want to show how bad the life is in "Sparta", a.k.a if the Athenian conservationists came in power). Also, everyone from that time would be called a mysogynist by modern standards.
Starting from that, everything we know about Gorgo is susceptible to be false or changed.

2-3) As far as we know, her role may have been greater than that. But it could also have been a way to show that Spartans listen to the advices of women because they are too stupid to decide by themselves.

I'm aware. Civ is not meant to be perfect history. You find something that you can use as flavor for good gameplay. If Gorgo provides good gameplay, then she's fine. And we have enough (even if they aren't facts) to make a character out of it.

=> My point is that we simply not know enough about her. There are other strong greek women, and even if I strongly disagree to consider Cleopatra as a Greek rather than as an Egyptian (her dynasty has been ruling over Egypt for 3 damn centuries, she's more Egyptian than most Americans are Americans - and yeah, she's not from an old dynasty, and she speaks greek, but what did you expect ? That Egypt was stuck in time ? People and cultures change over time.), even her would have been a better choice. But, well, Gorgo is probably the most famous Spartan queen.
The problem is that they wanted to have Sparta and a Woman. They didn't have much the choice.
Otherwise, they would probably have chosen Zenobia or Penelopeia.

Seems like we agree on this, except for the part about not knowing enough. Again, I would not have chosen Gorgo, but that is not at all the same as saying she is inappropriate.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Pretty confident we're getting some 300 Gorgo realness

Also, if one of the two greeks leaders is gonna be DLC its gonna be Pericles not her rolf

 

[SMcM]

Also, if one of the two greeks leaders is gonna be DLC its gonna be Pericles not her rolf

I agree with this; if we already had pericles, I don't think Gorgo would sell too well as DLC due to her being scarsely known, whilst Pericles I think would sell better as DLC. I also think it is fairly likely that Pericles will in fact be DLC.

 

[Atlas627]

I think they are both in the base game. Isabella looks like DLC, though. Poland, too.

 

[Zaarin]

I think they are both in the base game. Isabella looks like DLC, though. Poland, too.

This. If Pericles is DLC, why was he in the Civilopedia and Isabella was not? To all appearances, Greece will launch with both Pericles and Gorgo. If one of them were DLC, though, I agree that it would be Pericles.

 

[GenyaArikado]

K idk what to think anymore. Halfassed build perhaps?

 

[Manifold]

I hope Gorgo will have snakes on her head instead of hair. that would be very cool for a greek mythology mod

 

[Atlas627]

This. If Pericles is DLC, why was he in the Civilopedia and Isabella was not? To all appearances, Greece will launch with both Pericles and Gorgo. If one of them were DLC, though, I agree that it would be Pericles.

On the other hand, you'd think they would advertise Multiple Leaders as a feature if it were in the base game...maybe they think the backlash from having it only apply to one civ would be worse than the gains from it getting more people to buy it?

K idk what to think anymore. Halfassed build perhaps?

Nah, Gorgo is definitely still there somewhere.

 

[Zaarin]

On the other hand, you'd think they would advertise Multiple Leaders as a feature if it were in the base game...maybe they think the backlash from having it only apply to one civ would be worse than the gains from it getting more people to buy it?

2k's marketing of Civ6 has overall been...strange. I mean, I've definitely seen worse marketing campaigns (Skyrim comes to mind), but they've definitely presented some things in non-optimal ways. I'm 99% positive both Pericles and Gorgo are in the base game; everything seems to suggest that even if Gorgo is not additional leaders are coming; I've seen numerous people asking for the feature on Civ's Facebook page. One would think they'd want to tease that feature--but then again, maybe the concern regarding backlash for having only one civ at launch using the feature or their particular choices of alternate leaders is making them hold back. To be fair, they could even be accused of money gouging for including non-traditional leaders; personally I think it was a conscious design choice, but some might accuse them of "holding Napoleon hostage." (Personally I hope France gets someone other than Napoleon, but I'm aware he's a popular choice.)