Civ Dip X

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Guys, you have to look at it from all sides.

It's quite obvious now that Germany and France planned their campaign on the knowledge that England was out of the game from day one. It appears he never returned any letters or wrote any to begin with. Thus, it's unfair to Germany and France to let England move, since they sneakily took advantage of his NMR, and it's totally unfair to the replacement England to give him a turn-one NMR'd state, because it sure isn't his fault that Sheep is a slacker. It would have been far more sportsmanlike to inform the GM that England was a no-show, but hey, this is Diplomacy.

I can't speak for France, but as far as I'm concerned that's entirely untrue.

I made my moves based on the fact that I, as Germany, wrote the English player and heard nothing in return and had also heard from France and Russia. Nothing more dictated my moves. Not even my past experience with Sheep as a player and GM (which has been ABYSMAL). It is NOT my responsibility to keep track of who is in the game and who isn't, and I cannot make an assumption about a player not being in the game simply because I haven't heard from him. Maybe he was planning an opening with France. Maybe he wanted to see how I opened before opening up communications. Or maybe he just prefers to play gunboat. But to insinuate that myself or France or anyone else tried to 'slip one by' the rest of you by going after a nation we both knew was going to NMR is preposterous.

Sorry to all hands, but it's plainly obvious that this England is dead, kaput, a corpse. Against a determined FrancoGerman campaign, he can't even get a fleet off his own flipping island!

Untrue. Even in the fall, he can easily take the Norwegian or North Seas, and perhaps both depending on German and French moves.

Much less make it to Norway, that's totally out of the picture. Hey, I'm not saying that the French and the Germans actually have to or want to actually INVADE England

Good, because that is more speculation.

TWO meager units are all they need to tie up England for good in his starting position, and if England tries any funny stuff they get London [F Eng-Lon, F Hol-Nth].

Also untrue. I've already worked out several scenarios on realpolitik if a player were to replace England, and it would take at least 2 years of solid English play before a determined and unwavering Franco-German alliance could breach the Island Fortress. Besides, what if we'd both rather work with the new England and form a western triple? What if one of us gets England to work with them against the other? There are simply too many scenarios considering we get someone to take over England (and we already have that person!)

Throw in a Russian fleet which I will be more than happy to provide in good time, and England is sunk for good.

Complete speculation again. It is unfair to determine that FGR will simply carve up England into equal shares.

Diplomacy? Are you kidding? What can I, if I were England, promise to Germany or France against each other when they have a guaranteed three builds if they just wait?

Germany has a 'safe' three builds, but how does France? The way I see it, France only has a 'safe' one build.

and even so, I'm so far behind that there's no build my so-called ally can't get to first.

A good player doesn't always go after dots.

I wouldn't take the Throne if you paid me, and anyone who volunteers imho is doing it quite out of pity. ;)

I've taken far worse positions than this. If this were really the case, you'd have a ton of drop outs because once a nation looked like it was in trouble, there'd be no point in playing. I for one would like to see what the replacement England can do. I think he's got just as good a shot as any of making an impact in this game. I think it would be an even greater testament if he could survive, share in a draw, or dare I say - solo!

It's terribly unfair to Germany, France, and Russia [me especially, since I have Scandinavia at my feet] but I don't want to abandon this game, and I know it certainly CANNOT be played through with a first-turn NMR.

My first preference would be to have the GM stop the game before the moves were announced, but we can't go back in time and fix that. So I see no problem with continuing with standard Diplomacy rules. I'd have the same opinion whether I was playing any other nation.

Come on! I know it sucks, but a restart is the only option.

If that is what it comes down to, fine, but I won't be playing. And that's not out of spite, it's just that I refuse to put that much effort into another gmae once I've already designed a strategy in my mind. I took a lot of time to write people and post on this board, and I don't feel like doing it again ESPECIALLY if the nations are the same!

I am completely aware that some players have given away a new and cool opening [like Italy and France].

These openings are hardly 'new' or 'cool'. Italy's opening is fairly standard anti-France, and the French opening (while gutsy!) is hardly innovative. I've seen the Gascony opening many times (in fact, I even suggested it in my first letter to France). Sure beats Picardy, IMO, especially with the Spa opening.

The most common opening is the Churchill [Norwegian, North, and Yorkshire] followed by the variant that moves the army to Edinburgh. A close third is the Channel opening [North, Channel, Yorkshire] followed by the variant that moves the army to Wales.

Those are really the only valid openings.

Most common means nothing. Where does the Gascony opening rank on French openings? How about the Italian anti-French opening? How about Austria's opening? Why should we assume that England would make a pro-France anti-Russia opening just because it's the most popular?

If we were talking about Turkey you could say he might move:

F Ankara - Armenia
A Constantinople - Ankara
A Smyrna - Syria

But have you ever seen it done? Would a sane Turkish player ever do that?

Anyway it's a moot point.

You're absolutely right it's moot, it's moot because it does not matter what you think an England would make in this position, let alone a Turkey, because the rules CLEARLY state what to do in the event of an NMR. ALL UNITS HOLD.

And to answer the second question, it's possible that a Turkish player may want to open that way. I opened to Clyde Yorkshire and English Channel in the last game of Diplomacy I played here, and I believe I ended up winning it. Granted, it was a standard variant, but there could always be a rationale for moves that you don't see because you're not in that country's position. That is why making up ANY set of moves other than those laid forth by the rules (ALL UNITS HOLD) is arbitrary and unfair.

Only people as **** as Sheep2 would fail to put a fleet in the N.Sea in Spring 1901.

And who was playing England? Perhaps we should write in a "Sheep" opening?

F London - Wales
A Liverpool - Yorkshire
F Edinburgh - Clyde

Now, I'd personally like to continue the game as is with our brave replacement player and a slight delay for him to get caught up. If the Eastern powers are worried about the quick growth of an FG, they should take that into account in their strategy. A first turn NMR is MOST unfortunate, but I don't think everyone else should be punished, nor do I think that we should take this opportunity to arbitrarily 'fudge' some moves out.
 
Why should France and Germany continue to cooperate? Simple. There is no reason to back off from a guaranteed conquest.

Fall 1901.
FRANCE: Eng-Lon.
GERMANY: Hol-Nth.
RUSSIA: BOT-Swe.

England cannot get into the North Sea. If he moves Fleet London he loses that supply center. Let's assume he is imaginative:

ENGLAND: Lvp-Edi, Edi-NWG, Lon-Nth.

Cute but relatively futile. No builds yet.

Spring 1902. What can England do? If he convoys or moves to Norway, he is bounced out by the Russian fleet. If he attempts to force the North Sea, he is either bounced out or loses London, as before. If he tries for Barents he is bounced by the new Russian fleet. In the Fall, a German fleet in Helgoland or Denmark forces the North Sea; a Russian fleet in Barents forces Norway. The end is near.

Another possible idea is moving the army initially to Yorkshire where it can bounce London [Yor-Lon, Lon-Nth, Edi or Nwg s Lon-Nth]. In which case France and Germany can still bounce [Eng s Hol-Nth].

Invasion plans are NOT necessary. With a mere TWO units France and Germany can essentially pin England down indefinitely and save him for later.

What better deal could England possibly offer either France or Germany?
 
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Why should France and Germany continue to cooperate? Simple. There is no reason to back off from a guaranteed conquest.

WRONG. There are a hundred and one reasons you might want to back off. If England was in Civil Disorder I could better understand your point (though it still wouldn't be true) but France could try to get one up on Germany and have a cheap and easily accessable ally or visa versa. Or Russia may try to work with England to keep Germany and France small. Or France may decide to let England go since Italy opened strongly anti-France. But, even assuming that FG continue against England (which I agree is certainly possible from an objective standpoint)...

Fall 1901.
FRANCE: Eng-Lon.
GERMANY: Hol-Nth.
RUSSIA: BOT-Swe.

Why do we assume F Eng - Lon? I don't think that's his best option. Why do we assume Hol - Nth? That's just about the LAST move I'd want to make. Bot - Swe is the most likely move of all, but it's still not set in stone. If Russia and Austria wanted to cut their war short and turn on Germany now, F Bot - Bal COULD be a possibility (though I don't think anyone would do this)

England cannot get into the North Sea. If he moves Fleet London he loses that supply center.

Not necessarily. He might think that France won't move there and guess right. Or he may move F Lon - Ech and hope that France goes to Wales, Nth, or Mao. Or he may work something out with France diplomatically.

Let's assume he is imaginative:

ENGLAND: Lvp-Edi, Edi-NWG, Lon-Nth.

Cute but relatively futile. No builds yet.

Assumes far too much, but I'll follow you with one change (A Lvp - Yor). Still puts him in an ok position if he gains a relationship with France. Not great, but not horrible. And that's still assuming no cooperation with Russia OR Germany which could happen.

Spring 1902. What can England do? If he convoys or moves to Norway, he is bounced out by the Russian fleet. If he attempts to force the North Sea, he is either bounced out or loses London, as before. If he tries for Barents he is bounced by the new Russian fleet. In the Fall, a German fleet in Helgoland or Denmark forces the North Sea; a Russian fleet in Barents forces Norway. The end is near.

If that's how it goes down, that's how it goes down. I think we're assuming that the new player has NO diplomatic skill. If I were England, I can think of several different scenarios that i could pitch to buy myself out of my bad start. And the sympathy angle can work wonders (Help me, i inherited a mercy position, i'll do anything, etc.)

Invasion plans are NOT necessary. With a mere TWO units France and Germany can essentially pin England down indefinitely and save him for later.

Whether or not this is the case, it's still a waste of units for both, and assumes that there are no problems anywhere else or with each other. You're assuming WAY too much!

What better deal could England possibly offer either France or Germany?

again, i can think of many, but I'm not going to share them. Let's see what England can come up with, if anything.
 
I don't understand the objection to England having a fleet in the N.Sea, it means that the game can proceed almost as normal and no-one is significantly disadvantaged. England will always at the very least put a fleet in the N.Sea even if going after France as it would be insane to do anything other.
 
that's NOT true kitten. England does not always put a fleet into the North Sea, just as Austria does not always put an army into Serbia, nor does Russia ALWAYS move to GoBot.

The fact is, England made no move whatsoever. He NMRed, which means that all of his units should hold.
 
The point is that first-turn NMRs are traditionally ILLEGAL. Go to any Diplomacy-playing website and you'll see this is true. The solutions vary; some GMs halt the game and replace players, some have a "standard" set of first-turn orders which will be played if a player doesn't submit his own [at Redscape, the standard opening for England is the Churchill - Yor, Nwg, and Nth].

Either we choose one of these, or a restart, or you can find another Russia. For me there is no reason to put effort into a game that is so unbalanced and unfair. Even though I am the one that's going to profit most from it in the next two years.

Why don't end this silly debate and hold a vote to see what the majority actually wants.
 
Originally posted by orange
that's NOT true kitten. England does not always put a fleet into the North Sea, just as Austria does not always put an army into Serbia, nor does Russia ALWAYS move to GoBot.

The fact is, England made no move whatsoever. He NMRed, which means that all of his units should hold.

As I said, only a ****ing moron wouldn't put a fleet into the North Sea as England.
 
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