Civ Discussion - Carthage

[bengalryan9]

The next Civ on our list for the weekly discussion is Carthage, and Economic and Militaristic civilization which comes with the "Crossroads of the World" DLC.

Carthage has the unique ability Phoenician Heritage, which means towns cannot be converted to cities but anytime you build a settler or merchant you get an extra copy for free. Their unique units are the Numidian Cavalry, which gets +1 combat strength for every unique resource slotted in the capital but can only be purchased with gold, and the Colonist, which is a settler replacement that gives +1 population if settled next to a resource and extra movement while embarked.

Their unique buildings are the Cothon, a coastal building that gives added production, and the Dockyard, a coastal building that gives extra gold and food. Together they create the uniqe quarter the Punic Port, which gives +2 resource slots in that settlement. All of these can be purchased in towns.

As far as unique civics are concerned, Carthage gets:
Shipsheds - unlocks the Cothon and gives +1 movement to naval units. At mastery, it unlocks the Quinquereme Tradition (+25% gold towards purchasing naval units and -1 gold maintenance on them) and +1 range on naval units.
Wisdom of Tanit - unlocks the Dockyard, gives +15 naval trade range, and +3 gold in the capital for every trade route from the capital. At mastery it unlocks the Gaulos Tradition (+25% gold towards purchasing buildings on the coast or on navigable rivers) and +3 resource slots in the capital.
Sicilian Wars - +2 settlement limit and unlocks the Suffetes Tradition (+20% gold in mining towns and +20% food from fishing/farming towns), and at mastery grants +1 movement and sight to Numidian Cavalry and +1 codex slot in towns with the Trade Outpost specialization.

Carthage unlocks Spain in the Exploration Age. Their associated wonder is the Byrsa (+2 gold, trade routes cannot be plundered, and builds walls on any coastal tiles in the city eligible for walls). They have a Coastal Grassland starting bias.

So what does everyone think of Carthage? How do you play them? What leaders do you think fit well with them? Who do you look to transition to in the Exploration Age?

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Carthage seems cool but I didn’t pay for them soooooo

 

[bengalryan9]

Personally, I think Carthage is pretty fun to play. I've always enjoyed civs that have abilities that change the core approach to the game, and being limited to one city fits that mold. They are bit well to pursue the economic legacy path, and that's one I tend to go after quite a bit. I've heard they also do well militarily but I don't typically go that route.

Colonists are awesome. Their cavalry sounds strong but I just don't play in a way where I get a ton of use out of them. Their unique buildings and quarter are nice and being able to put them in towns is always a plus. You'll obviously have ton of space for resources so trade, trade, trade!

The naval focus seems nice on the surface but they suffer from the same issue Aksum did in our last thread in that you will lose any ships you build at the age transition. The extra movement and attack range seems really nice, though, so I hate that you have that limitation on taking advantage of it.

Traditions are kind of meh. Not bad, nothing great. I think I like and get the most use out of Gaulos. Suffetes is nice to have for extra gold/food but not gamebreaking-ly good or anything.

Obviously as Carthage you'll have a tougher time completing the Cultural or Science legacy paths... building all those wonders in one city is tough, and while you can get the codex slots you need is it really optimal to have any trading posts (especially when Carthage already gets +15 trade route distance anyways?). As I've pointed out elsewhere Economic is easy but Carthage doesn't get any use out of that Golden Age if you do go that route.

I've played two games as Carthage - one as Ibn Battuta (even more population on settling those towns!), and one as Isabella (might as well have a Natural Wonder nearby to really boost your main city). Both felt like good fits to me, though there are other leaders that would also do well with them (Amina, Hattie, Augustus all come to mind).

 

[bengalryan9]

Carthage seems cool but I didn’t pay for them soooooo

I considered skipping them and doing the DLC civs later but I figured I'd forget to go back if I went out of alphabetical order, lol.

 

[Leucarum]

Carthage is really great for tempo. Easy to access settlement limit in the Sicillian Wars and rapid colonists lets you claim all the prime real estate around you. You drop off in power really quick though with just 1 city so you really need that tempo.

I think you also want to try and "speedrun" as much as you can. Since you'll get set up and at full strength faster than the other civs you're gonna want to push the age meter forward as far as possible. If you get the option to delete another civ and push the age forward hard do it!

Carthage also loves getting some UIs from city states! Since you can't build as much in towns they help you close the gap especially in science and culture. I'm sure there'll be a chorus of Augustus' as leader for good reason, but I'll say I really like Trade Xerxes for maximizing the UIs that you'll have plenty of cash to spam...

 

[Navelgazer]

It's funny me that we have the two naval-focused Antiquity civs first, but the complaints in the Aksum thread about Naval units not carrying over into Exploration still, of course, apply here. (Mind you, it doesn't actually bother me that much, and I'm likely building some galleys no matter who I'm playing as, but considering that Carthage's kit really wants you to lean into Shipbuilding, it's particularly relevant here,)

What they don't share with Aksum is, of course, the Settlement Cap. Carthage lets you go as wide as you want, basically, so long as you don't mind every settlement not named "Carthage" being a town for the entire age. Which is a big ask. It's manageable (You can even complete the Science victory if you get Nalanda and/or turn enough towns into Trading Hubs, though you certainly have no specific bonus helping you along) but it's hard not to reach a point in the age where you can feel the restriction holding you back a bit.

Byrsa isn't one of the better wonders, IMO, and if you want it, you have to plan for it before you build it, which is kind of funny considering how early in the tech tree it arrives (like with Aksum and the Great Stele, you'll likely access it the normal way before you reach it in your civ-specific civic tree.)

But the big deal here is doubling up on colonists and merchants. Playing super-wide and, hopefully, very rich.

 

[Sagax]

Augustus of all people being one of the best leader picks for Carthage will never stop being funny to me.

 

[evonannoredars]

Carthage is definitely one of the most fun civs to play. I imagine with time we'll get more that really change up how you need to approach the game, but I think they did a great job at making something like that so early and look forward others.

 

[Kurtbob]

I enjoy playing Carthage with Ashoka, World Renouncer for the happiness adjacency bonus he provides, allowing me to spam towns beyond the settlement limit without worry.

 

[uppi]

My basic game plan for Carthage is: First, rapid expansion, use the colonists to grab good land. Then build up your gold economy using your towns while the AI develops its cities. Finally, select the juciests cities the AI build for you and which are within reach (Often capitals, Egypt tends to build cities with lots of wonders and a nice navigable river to sail your ships up), buy Numidian calvary and maybe some ships and take them towards the end of the age. Starting exploration, these will be your future cities next to Carthage and maybe some towns which you have founded in good city spots.

Don't stress with science too much. You need the wheel and maybe navigation and then grab some codices if you can, but success does not hinge on you doing good in science. Carthage will most likely overproduce anyway, so you should be building wonders, but it might be tricky to fit 7 in Carthage. But you should be easily able to manage 4 to get two legacy points.

Leaders:
Augustus - a match made in heaven.
Isabella - if you want to double down on the ship discount. It is not the best in Antiquity, but the Carthage tradition and Isabellas ability let you buy huge fleets for cheap in Exploration.

 

[bengalryan9]

Carthage also loves getting some UIs from city states! Since you can't build as much in towns they help you close the gap especially in science and culture.

This is a really good point and you're likely to have the gold to make spamming those UIs across your empire pretty easy.

One thing I'm hoping to see get looked at in the future in general is town specializations... some of them just don't seem all that worth it as it currently stands. Buffing some of these means buffing towns, and that would buff Carthage. Fishing/Farming does what it's meant to do and does it well. Mining is decent, but maybe not for Carthage as do you really need extra gold? Their kit encourages you to use trading posts on one hand (Codex slots) but makes them pointless on the other (+15 naval trade range). I think if Urban Centers were better for culture and science production Carthage would be well setup to take advantage of it (and maybe that's where there Codex slot could go, instead?), but right now they seem pretty bad and I never bother.

One other thing to watch out for as Carthage is that I think they can get unlucky with map spawns with their coastal bias... make sure you don't have so many resources or mountains around your capital that you don't have room to expand your only city! This actually came into play in my last game as them with Isabella where I had ocean to the west and a mountain natural wonder to the right (comes with taking Isabella, which could be a bit of a drawback to choosing her in this case?), plus a smattering of resources nearby as well. I had just enough space to get by but it was pretty cramped and no way would I have been able to build multiple wonders there.

 

[sixty4half]

I played Carthage with Charlemagne and bought 1 Numidian Cavalry I think. I just figured that if I couldn't build them I'd just get them for free. I settled the first two Colonists and just took anything else i wanted. Charley pumped out tons of free Cavalry as usual which helped me dominate everyone on my continent. I swapped to Normans next. Having Punic Ports really helps out the Econ victory.

I've played Charley with Maurya too but I think Carthage was more fun.

 

[GeorgeF]

I have Isabella/Carthage going and it works well with the extra cash coming in as Isabella buying as many Cothons as you possibly can. If you get a decent natural wonder in first city it can really help you steamroll. I don't have the game open now but I got the one with 4 squares of 2 food two culture which of course doubles for Isabella and getting all 4 of those on line early really powers your culture for the age. Make sure to make friends with tech independent state first for lots of free techs and you can keep up with tech enough. I ended up getting 2-teamed by Augustus and Napoleon but got 2 cities from Augustus and 1 from Napoleon. They attacked again in Exploration but fought them off again and now I'm into modern and cruising. I never seem to get much use of the cavalry though, you have to spend coin to get them and I'd rather spend the coin on Cothons.

I like Ida with Carthage too because she helps with science, but I always end up too far behind with her for some reason.

 

[Nikolai II]

Some of my most fun games has been with Carthage. One of the few times I’d wish I could not change civ, or at least bonuses in a civ, even though I like the ers and civ switching in general.

 

[reddishrecue]

What I've noticed about Carthage is that its Numidian cavalry is really good except against immortals because of their unique anti-infantry. Level 2 makes the Numidian cavalry available and in level 3 I imagine how much more powerful that unit is. It's hard getting it though because of the difficulties that Carthage has with science being a 1 citied library and academy but if you get it, I feel like I would have a really formidable offense.

 

[disjointaccount]

Loving these threads - the synergies with Charlemagne or UI spam had never occurred to me; I'll definitely consider those for my next Carthage game!

I really like Carthage. Not even for their kit itself, just because, as others have said, more unique leaders/civs that are more transformative of how you play the game are always welcome imo.

I think their main power is just in being able to settle like crazy. You can churn out colonists to claim up a ton of land and give yourself plenty of towns (which sets you up to either shift to a more balanced empire by converting some in a future age or just continue tall with your Carthage mega city), those towns come online fast since you're generating so much gold from them all (plus the trade spam Carthage gives you the capacity for) and the Punic Ports improve them even further, providing more money, growth, and resource capacity. Carthage is definitely a strong contender for best tall (by Civ 7's definition of tall) civ in the game for me. I also value Punic Ports, and specifically the Cothon, in cities, because anything that gives more production is always very welcome.

This is another civ where the traditions are fairly "fine" for me. Reliably useful for their civ, but nothing to write home about. The unique tree is solid thanks to the settlement limit and codex storage, but the traditions themselves aren't a huge draw.

The Numidian Cavalry is a very strong unit, but I find in my Carthage games I don't utilise it for conquest as often as I go conquering with most other civs. I think I'm often so tied up pumping money into my many many towns for a lot of the age that I tend not to stop and purchase a couple of commanders' worth of them around the time I'd produce the same amount of cavalry on any other civ. So I just find the buying-only to be a bit restricting, but perhaps that's just an issue with my playstyle. For sure going to try out the Charlemagne synergy.

Coastal bias is whatever but I like grassland. Weiyang Palace and Terracotta Army are really nice wonders that tend to be fairly competitive so a grassland spawn to be able to place them in my most productive (or in Carthage's case, only) city is welcome. On the topic of wonders, though, I don't think I've ever gotten any value out of Byrsa other than adjacencies/a point towards 7 Wonders. And for Carthage, the events it unlocks are nice, allowing you to raise the specialist cap.

Lastly, for leaders, I agree Augustus is a great pick. Since I haven't seen him mentioned yet, I'll throw Confucious' name in the ring. I think tall is in a pretty solid place in VII but its big weakness to me, relative to wide, is science/culture generation. More cities = more tree yield buildings, which towns simply can't do (ordinarily). So having some way to supplement those yields is important - especially if you're going for science or culture legacy paths, but even just to not fall behind and get steamrolled if you're not.

Augustus and UI spam offer such ways to supplement these yields, but due to its synergy with tall play, I'm a big fan of chasing every buff I can for my specialists and spamming them like crazy, which Confucious excels at. Throw in Angkor Wat for maximum specialist shenanigans.

 

[UWHabs]

I played Carthage with Charlemagne and bought 1 Numidian Cavalry I think. I just figured that if I couldn't build them I'd just get them for free. I settled the first two Colonists and just took anything else i wanted. Charley pumped out tons of free Cavalry as usual which helped me dominate everyone on my continent. I swapped to Normans next. Having Punic Ports really helps out the Econ victory.

I've played Charley with Maurya too but I think Carthage was more fun.

Yeah, I had so many cavalry as Charly, and played before they fixed them, so I was getting my like +22 combat strength on them. Was definitely fun to just crush everything.

Otherwise, their problem are that you have a tradition for bonus to fishing/mining towns, but you need outpost towns to get relic slots. But the punic port slots that you can spam in every town, and that persist through the eras, make them a sneaky amazing modern era civ since they're the only civ where you really don't run out of resource slots once camels go away.

But they're a fun OCC sort of spinoff, and since they have a production building with relatively easy adjacency, give you a leg up when you hit the next era to town a bunch of towns into cities and get them built up.

 

[queenpea]

Byrsa isn't one of the better wonders, IMO, and if you want it, you have to plan for it before you build it, which is kind of funny considering how early in the tech tree it arrives (like with Aksum and the Great Stele, you'll likely access it the normal way before you reach it in your civ-specific civic tree.).

It arrives too early in the tech tree for its bonus on walled districts to be very useful (at this point in the timeline, players have few urban districts), and the bonus protecting trade routes is extremely underwhelming.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It arrives too early in the tech tree for its bonus on walled districts to be very useful (at this point in the timeline, players have few urban districts), and the bonus protecting trade routes is extremely underwhelming.

Yes, if they aren't going to change the likelihood of anybody raiding trade routes, protection for trade routes will remain completely underwhelming.

But, as early as it comes, a bonus extending the range of Trade Routes could be extremely useful. I can't count the number of times I've gotten the Civic with the 'free' Trader/merchant and discovered no one, not even a City State, was within range of the early puny trade routes.

 

[Navelgazer]

But, as early as it comes, a bonus extending the range of Trade Routes could be extremely useful. I can't count the number of times I've gotten the Civic with the 'free' Trader/merchant and discovered no one, not even a City State, was within range of the early puny trade routes.

Yup. Despite the fact that it's almost certainly suboptimal, I almost always start with the Pochteca Backpack memento just because it drives me nuts when this happens.

(I also almost always use the Corpus Juris Civilis for the extra policy slot, which also might not be the best choice but I sure miss it when I don't have it.)