Daigotsu Max
Franco-Hiberno-Catalan
Not only is Carthage fun to play, but dang, their soundtrack is a banger.
Crossroads of the World Collection - Carthage
- Thread starter Noble Zarkon
- Start date
I just looked it up on YouTube. The instruments feel very modern--snare drum, brass, flute, though I think the stringed instrument may be a lyre (but it could also be a guitar--I was skimming). I do like that they made it more up-tempo versus the Civ5/6 arrangements, but I'd have preferred to hear goblet drums, oud, and ney alongside the lyre.
The Fanatical
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2016
- Messages
- 417
I have to say that I really like the design and abilities of the civilization. A lot of though has been put into them. Aside from the unique military unit, the major focus isn't just the Punic Wars, maybe foreshadowing that Hannibal will be a leader. I feel a bit sad that there is no war elephant or a unique warship unit, but it makes sense why the Numidian Cavalry was chosen. It was the Numidian cavalry that gained the Carthaginians tremendous victories over the Romans and gave them the upper hand, not their war elephants. When the Romans got a bigger Numidian cavalry force than the Carthaginians, they won the war. Perhaps, we will gain the African war elephant as a unique military unit for Numidia in the future, since the Numidians provided war elephants to Rome.
Still, there are a few negatives. From a gameplay perspective, the lack of many cities isn't to my liking. From an artistic perspective, the buildings and wonder should have looked more Punic and less Greco-Roman. I still find Byrsa, the Punic Port, the Punic palace, and the Punic town centers beautiful, though. Before release, I had even hoped for the Punic commanders to look unique and not identical to the Greek ones, but alas. Just imagine them with richly decorated purple tunics and lion skins on the helmets.
The civilization also seems to have been rushed a bit. The city names lack their true Punic form and are Anglicized or Latinized or Hellenized. For instance Carthage instead of QRT ḤDŠT, Hadrumetum instead of ʾDRMT, Leptis instead of LPQ etc. If you look at the Persian and Greek city names to give you an example, then you will see that more attention to their original form was given when they were written. The regular units and buildings reuse art assets, as does the Colonist and the Numidian Cavalry. In the case of the regular units I get it, since Carthage adopted Greek, Hellenistic and Roman equipment and weapons, but the unique units needed a bit more attention to detail. The Colonist has no unique model art, a different garb or a unique hat would have been enough in my opinion. The Numidian Cavalry uses a shield model used by the Medjay while it should have carried a bronze circular shield in addition to the circular shield with zebra hide, but aside from that it is accurate and looks amazing. All in all, Carthage left a bittersweet taste for me in the matter of unique art just like Persia (Immortal), but I'm still happy that both Persia and Carthage are part of the game.
I know that Carthage isn't going to change by this post and that wasn't my post's intention, but at least I hope that I can inspire the team to make the civilizations more unique artistically going forward.
Still, there are a few negatives. From a gameplay perspective, the lack of many cities isn't to my liking. From an artistic perspective, the buildings and wonder should have looked more Punic and less Greco-Roman. I still find Byrsa, the Punic Port, the Punic palace, and the Punic town centers beautiful, though. Before release, I had even hoped for the Punic commanders to look unique and not identical to the Greek ones, but alas. Just imagine them with richly decorated purple tunics and lion skins on the helmets.
The civilization also seems to have been rushed a bit. The city names lack their true Punic form and are Anglicized or Latinized or Hellenized. For instance Carthage instead of QRT ḤDŠT, Hadrumetum instead of ʾDRMT, Leptis instead of LPQ etc. If you look at the Persian and Greek city names to give you an example, then you will see that more attention to their original form was given when they were written. The regular units and buildings reuse art assets, as does the Colonist and the Numidian Cavalry. In the case of the regular units I get it, since Carthage adopted Greek, Hellenistic and Roman equipment and weapons, but the unique units needed a bit more attention to detail. The Colonist has no unique model art, a different garb or a unique hat would have been enough in my opinion. The Numidian Cavalry uses a shield model used by the Medjay while it should have carried a bronze circular shield in addition to the circular shield with zebra hide, but aside from that it is accurate and looks amazing. All in all, Carthage left a bittersweet taste for me in the matter of unique art just like Persia (Immortal), but I'm still happy that both Persia and Carthage are part of the game.
I know that Carthage isn't going to change by this post and that wasn't my post's intention, but at least I hope that I can inspire the team to make the civilizations more unique artistically going forward.
Yzman
Deity
Unlocks Spain I am fairly sure.
Numidia without Numidian Cavalry would be super weird.
The one thing I enjoyed about Phoenicia in Civ 6 is it wasn't trying to be anything other than Phoenician/Punic, and you could see that in their design. Unfortunately, when you choose Carthage instead you end up having to mix Punic elements with Northern African, and to me that unfortunately takes away the possibility of other civs appearing.
It's a bit of a pity that they have left these overpowering bugs in, they skew their balance from "well-rounded with interesting alternative mechanics" to "overwhelming avalanche of power". Consider that the flawed Quinquereme tradition gives you another 25% discount to your self-doubling merchants and colonists. (And the discount is still available in subsequent ages, of course.)
I simply nerfed it for myself in my 2nd playthrough with them, neutralized the gold discount bug as stated in the tradition text and gave the numidian cavalry a flat +5 CS (still a lot, keep in mind they're also faster and can see further). Somehow I doubt that would be a popular mod though...
My horsies would have come online with an easy 45 CS otherwise, horse resources not even included, and still have gotten a lot stronger in late Antiquity. Makes Carthage pretty much invincible.
Had a fun first half of Antiquity, the carthaginian quirks are great and well-paced without this nonsense - every few turns you get a little emotional ping of "oh, that's neat".
Their cothon works in interesting ways with towns - a production building that comes alive as one only in the next age (since the towns just turn prod into gold).
I simply nerfed it for myself in my 2nd playthrough with them, neutralized the gold discount bug as stated in the tradition text and gave the numidian cavalry a flat +5 CS (still a lot, keep in mind they're also faster and can see further). Somehow I doubt that would be a popular mod though...
My horsies would have come online with an easy 45 CS otherwise, horse resources not even included, and still have gotten a lot stronger in late Antiquity. Makes Carthage pretty much invincible.
Had a fun first half of Antiquity, the carthaginian quirks are great and well-paced without this nonsense - every few turns you get a little emotional ping of "oh, that's neat".
Their cothon works in interesting ways with towns - a production building that comes alive as one only in the next age (since the towns just turn prod into gold).
I just finished the Modern age using Isabella and Carthage > Spain > America. Every Civ fed very naturally and strategically into the next, providing a great jumping off point for the goals of the next age both times. I ended up winning my first victory (Economic) and also decisively winning two world wars along the way due to out-teching my opponents (battleships vs ironclads etc). Lots of fun!
Lonecat Nekophrodite
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2019
- Messages
- 2,789
Why this time this civ gets a merc as UU rather than their signature polyremes?
Lonecat Nekophrodite
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2019
- Messages
- 2,789
Playing Spain at Age II always lead to Mexico in Age III. no matter who does. Augusto or Isabella or Hatshepsut.
Alternatively Spain should lead to France. but under what conditions? playing as Napoleon Bonaparte or improve three wines? or what?
Evolena
King
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2016
- Messages
- 861
Yes, that's why there is a "unlocks" link between Spain and Mexico.
Spain does not lead to France, unless you have one of the unlock requirements (indeed Napoleon or 3 Wines, but also Lafayette, Norman or Rome):
As Rome unlocks Spain, it can look like as if Spain sometimes unlocks French Empire if you've started with Rome + Spain.
Science can get very rough for Carthage - didn't have that problem in my first game (started in rainforest), but in my latest game with the more cultural Xerxes, lots of desert - and pressure from a lot of IPs and some angry Mayans on Immortal - it just didn't get going at all. Scraped together what I could find to stay competitive with my military.
I've never come up empty on science legacy before (and I was fine otherwise, scored 7 points and went out with 8/8 settlements).
I've never come up empty on science legacy before (and I was fine otherwise, scored 7 points and went out with 8/8 settlements).
Tinker
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2013
- Messages
- 580
If Carthage is a baseline for future DLC civs, I'm really looking forward to the rest of them. What a slam dunk. The way you spam cities along the coast from a central capital and then convert them into proper cities in the next age is really fun. I was playing for a Science victory, too, and the added strategy of needing specifically trading posts to house the codices is a great touch.
stealth_nsk
Deity
I started with Carthage as Augustus and it was pretty nuts. I finished antiquity (on archipelago deity) with 9 settlements and every single of them had monument in central squire (since monuments are both cultural and diplomatic, Augustus could buy them) and Carthage unique square. This was a huge jump start for exploration.
Vincent_lacruz
Warlord
I had my first Carthage game (dificulty+2, Lafayette because still had to play him). And I kind of had difficulties to produce enough science, only ended with 3 codex... I fear you really have to luck a science IP fast, to get as many free techs as possible... The UI from science suzerain can also help, but is still expensive, and require nature hapiness production... Or be in luck and get an opponent city with tech building...
But asside for that, Cartage is strong:
- Half price settler/merchants (since you get two each time) is rather nice, it lets you spread out fast and get the ressources you will need
- Punic Port will net you a hefty yield, you really want as many of them as possible. But wait for the tradition that let you buy at reduced cost, or pray to have a lot of gold ressources, because they sure are expensive...
- Speaking of expensive, the Numidian Cavalry sure are (300 gold each), but that's ok because you are technically buying knights (or more like tanks, once you get the added movement...).... I had +15 power just because of the city resources... You won't need so many of them to flatten the AI, that's sure.
So I feel that there is a far bigger chance part that for other civs, because you need a tech and culture IP fast (and not have them being destroyed...), and a decent neighbour to get advantage from (meaning juicy tech/culture city to be taken)...
And here is the "catch 22" part: you want to take other an opponent that has decent science/culture output. But that means he will have better units than you (he had more science to get ahead), so it will be difficult to conquer... So you need a perfect window of attack, after he built the science building, but before he gets too powerfull... And your unit output will be lower, since you only have one city (that will really want to produce wonders more than units...), and you need your gold for Punic Ports production, so no "human wave" tactic either...
So the last option to produce science/culture is specialists, which I don't like to use in antiquity considering the low amount of happiness at disposition and no cost reduction doctrines... Had one event that increased the specialist cap (no Idea of the trigger), but I didn't want to invest too much in specialist in case of the happiness crisis happenend...
But asside for that, Cartage is strong:
- Half price settler/merchants (since you get two each time) is rather nice, it lets you spread out fast and get the ressources you will need
- Punic Port will net you a hefty yield, you really want as many of them as possible. But wait for the tradition that let you buy at reduced cost, or pray to have a lot of gold ressources, because they sure are expensive...
- Speaking of expensive, the Numidian Cavalry sure are (300 gold each), but that's ok because you are technically buying knights (or more like tanks, once you get the added movement...).... I had +15 power just because of the city resources... You won't need so many of them to flatten the AI, that's sure.
So I feel that there is a far bigger chance part that for other civs, because you need a tech and culture IP fast (and not have them being destroyed...), and a decent neighbour to get advantage from (meaning juicy tech/culture city to be taken)...
And here is the "catch 22" part: you want to take other an opponent that has decent science/culture output. But that means he will have better units than you (he had more science to get ahead), so it will be difficult to conquer... So you need a perfect window of attack, after he built the science building, but before he gets too powerfull... And your unit output will be lower, since you only have one city (that will really want to produce wonders more than units...), and you need your gold for Punic Ports production, so no "human wave" tactic either...
So the last option to produce science/culture is specialists, which I don't like to use in antiquity considering the low amount of happiness at disposition and no cost reduction doctrines... Had one event that increased the specialist cap (no Idea of the trigger), but I didn't want to invest too much in specialist in case of the happiness crisis happenend...
I think Franklin may cover Carthage's science weakness (well, anyone's, but they need it). He can start two science endeavors for up to 12 early science - and he has an extra science bonus for those as well. Plus: the Cothon is a production building, but that doesn't help a lot.
Considering that I often hovered in the 20s and low 30s for science yields in my last game, probably enough to jumpstart them a bit (then get some codexes for extra science, etc.).
Considering that I often hovered in the 20s and low 30s for science yields in my last game, probably enough to jumpstart them a bit (then get some codexes for extra science, etc.).
Reposting from the soundtrack thread...
Carthaginians didn't use tiled roofs. Overall looks too Greek. Missed opportunity to highlight Phoenician textiles and dyework, and Carthaginian terrazzo and tilework. Feels super lazy to me. (The background beyond the city looks nice. And I do appreciate it shows how densely urban Carthage was, though it doesn't quite highlight the degree of urban planning that went into Carthage. It was a highly structured city.)
Carthaginians didn't use tiled roofs. Overall looks too Greek. Missed opportunity to highlight Phoenician textiles and dyework, and Carthaginian terrazzo and tilework. Feels super lazy to me. (The background beyond the city looks nice. And I do appreciate it shows how densely urban Carthage was, though it doesn't quite highlight the degree of urban planning that went into Carthage. It was a highly structured city.)
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