Civ Discussion - Greece

[bengalryan9]

The next civ up for discussion is Greece. Greece is a cultural and diplomatic civ with a starting bias towards rough grassland. Their associated wonder is the Oracle, and they automatically unlock Bulgaria, the Normans, the Spanish, and the Russians in future ages.

Their unique ability is Demokratia, which gives +3 influence per turn on the palace.
Their unique military unit is the Hoplite, a warrior replacement that gives +2 combat strength when adjacent to another Hoplite.
Their unique civilian unit is the Logios, a great person that can only be built in towns with an Acropolis and is pulled off a list of ten at random. They have a variety of effects, which I don't really feel like listing all of here, but in general they buff buildings with extra yields, give extra culture or science based on influence production, or give influence, a celebration, or extra units.
Their unique buildings are the Parthenon, which gives base culture, extra culture next to wonders, and extra influence if placed on rough terrain, and the Odeon, which gives base happiness and bonus culture for adjacent wonders and quarters. Together they form the Acropolis, a unique quarter that gives +2 gold on the Parthenon for every city state you are suzerain of.

For unique civs, Greece has Ekklesia (unlocks the Odeon and Xenia tradition, and at mastery gives +2 culture per turn for active endeavors, sanctions, and projects you started or supported), Agoge (unlocks the Parthenon and Strategoi tradition, and at mastery gives Hoplites +1 combat strength for each city state you are suzerain of), and Symmachia (+2 culture for every city state you are suzerain of, +1 settlement limit, and at mastery unlocks the Oracle, the Delian League tradition, and the Peloponnesian League tradition).

Greek traditions:
Xenia - +50% influence towards initiating or progressing the Befriend Independent project
Strategoi - +25% army commander experience
Delian League - +30% influence towards initiating endeavors
Peloponnesian League - +30% influence towards initiating sanctions

So what do you think of the Greeks? Strong? Weak? Anything that could use a balance pass? Which leaders do you like to play when using them? What legacy paths do you tend to chase? Who do you like to transition to in future ages? Let's discuss!

 

[bengalryan9]

I find Greece to be in a bit of an odd place at the moment, personally. On paper they should fit my playstyle perfectly (ally with city states, build up your cities and wonders, play diplomatically), and while they do all of that just fine I still think they might be a little on the weak side? Here's my thought process:

This is a civ that is obviously built towards building up a ton of influence and using it to make friends with every city state you possibly can. They certainly do build up a lot of influence... but in my experience regardless of who you play it's really not all that hard to ally with all of the city states anyways because the AI is just really slow to do so (I play on Immortal). You might shave off a few turns for sure, but in my experience I eventually end up in the same place with Greece as I do with any other civ (ie, suzerain to pretty much every city state I can find) and now most of that extra influence is building up with not much to really spend it on. They do get some nice bonuses in the antiquity age for spending that influence but all of those go away at the age transition (since none of those bonuses are tied to tradition cards).

I don't know, it's hard to explain... I don't think they're *bad* by any stretch, I just never feel like they give me all that much extra over what I get with anybody else. Maybe it's just me?

I find their traditions in general to be on the weak side. The +50% towards befriending city states is probably the best, but you can get the exact same thing by spending two diplomatic attribute points (and while I would assume the two stack with each other, the AI is so slow to suzerain city states that just feels like complete overkill to me). Bonus XP on army commanders is nice but nothing game breaking. The two League traditions are just kind there... I hardly ever use sanctions (maybe that's a mistake on my end?) and I've always got plenty of influence for endeavors. I just rarely find myself hurting for influence as someone who plays predominantly peacefully... maybe it's a lot more impactful for more aggressive players?

I think the Acropolis is the best part of Greece's kit and it pairs well with chasing the cultural legacy path. Like all great people there are some Logios with some very nice effects and then there are others that you probably don't want to see at all. Hoplites are what Hoplites have always been... that's a pretty easy combat bonus to achieve, and (I think?) it stacks. The Oracle strikes me as a pretty bad wonder (albeit one the AI doesn't seem to bother with, so if you're just chasing the legacy path...).

Two obvious fits from a leader stand point would be Tecumseh and Machiavelli, though Greece is the type of civ that probably fits with just about anyone. Tecumseh in particular seems like a match made in heaven, though... he's strong, and Greece plays right in to his strengths. Now that I think about it, maybe a game as Tecumseh/Greece where you play aggressive is one where all of Greece's bonuses to influence would really shine, as it balances out the influence you'd lose for being a jerk...

Anyways, this is a thread where I think people could convince me I'm wrong. Educate me!

 

[Navelgazer]

I love Greece, personally. I do think that Xenia is their strongest tradition and maybe just the best thing about them, full-stop. Especially once combined with the Diplomatic attribute bonus that also gives you a discount on befriending IPs, it just makes that process so easy that you don't need to think about it for the rest of the game, which I think gets to both the best and worst thing about Greece as a civ: They're super-good at setting you up for Exploration and Modern, but not very strong themselves in Antiquity.

Like, the Hoplites barely have a bonus themselves (though they get some through the tech tree - having to stack them next to each other to get a +2 bonus is clunky and, I believe, intentionally on the weaker side of Antiquity-era UUs, but the Agoge Mastery bonus can make a noticeable difference.) The Logioi are fun but the randomness keeps them from being reliable (like with Egypt's Tjatay), and a lot of them give bonuses that you'll want more towards the beginning of the age than later, when you have the time and money to build or buy them (for myself, I tend to use them as a quick in-between build when I'm waiting for my next wonder to unlock.)

The Acropolis is solid, for sure, and I always love a useful Unique Quarter, especially one I can build in Antiquity and use for the Science path in Exploration. It's good. Not as powerful as the Uwaybil K'uh (though what is?) but worth building where you can.

Those traditions, though. Beyond Xenia, Delian League and Strategoi are both very nice to have going forward, and if you're the type to use Sanctions a lot (I'm not), Peloponnesian League probably is, too. So once you come out of Antiquity, you can pick some civ without a diplomatic focus, since you've got that covered and then some for the rest of the game, pack up your Acropolis hexes with specialists to keep building culture while securing a the Science path, use your boosted Commanders on the Military side, and focus on whatever you like. But you're putting off your benefits until the next ages, in a lot of ways.

As for who to lead them - they're pretty flexible. I'll say that as tempting as the stacking bonus influence is, Machiavelli is largely redundant with Greece - he doesn't need to initiate sanctions, and doesn't have as much need to gobble up city states in any case. Lafayette is fun with them, but he's also pretty dormant early on, so you're doubling down on that strategy for a pretty weak start in hopes of a strong game later. Tubman fits them very nicely, I'd say, as does Tecumseh. And Catherine can get good use out of their culture generation, especially if she keeps her cities in Tundra. I'll say that it's a lot of fun to go from Greece to Spain, grabbing homelands and distant lands IPs as soon as you meet them, and with all the Hoplites you can hold onto turning into Tercios under the command of your +25% experience Commanders.

 

[uppi]

I think Greece is a strong civ. They don't have any overpowered bonuses, but they are very good at what they do. And at least with the current balance, the city-state playstyle is very strong. If that playstyle has one weakness, it is that it takes some time to set up, because first you need the influence and then you need to wait 15 or even 30 turns before the independent power allies with you and you get actual returns. Greece comes not only with a flat influence bonus, but the Parthenon can also very quickly get you even more influence. And the earlier you get those bonuses, the earlier you can start your snowball.

The Hoplite comes early, and the initial bonus is ok, but they really take of with the Agoge mastery. You want to be befriending city states anyway and then you can really start stacking combat strength. Add in Tecumseh, a military city state and maybe even the Warclub memento and Hoplites become Giant Death Humans. It is really fun to out-Deity the Deity AI when it comes to combat bonuses. I think Tecumseh is the best military leader right now and he really wants to chose Greece. In that combination, the best domination civ in Antiquity by far.

Also, Greece has a rough start bias. This means that you will very likely have lots of rough terrain for high-production mines. So you will very likely be able to build a very strong capital.

 

[disjointaccount]

I'm a big fan of Greece. In some ways it almost feels like they're more than the sum of their parts, as I don't think any one aspect of their kit reads as earth-shattering on paper but it all comes together into something that feels pretty strong.

I'll just say up top that I tend to limit myself to a handful of hub towns at most (usually tiny island settles that would at best be a mediocre fishing town otherwise) in the majority of games, because I find the strategy of connecting everything and spamming hub towns for hundreds of influence per turn to be so consistently powerful it's just boring. I've seen the frequent criticisms made of influence-generating leaders and civs that they're kind of redundant since hub towns can give you all the influence you need and more. And that's not wrong, but it's also (in my opinion) a deeply uninteresting way to play the game. So for everything I say, keep in mind I'm operating under the assumption that you're not getting a million influence per turn from hub towns (and they're getting nerfed next week anyway so for all we know that meta is on borrowed time)

+3 influence on the palace obviously isn't where the bulk of Greece's power sits, but it's still nice. Influence is the scarcest resource, so anything that gives me more of it is welcome. I consider Weiyang Palace to be a very strong wonder, so getting half of that from turn 0 for free is nothing to sniff at.

Hoplites are fine. They're not as versatile as Legions (which off the top of my head are probably my pick for strongest antiquity infantry, unless I'm forgetting someone), but I still like them. My earliest commander is always going to be packed with mostly infantry, so any unique infantry at all is presumably beneficial for early IP dispersal (which is obviously preferable to avoid as Greece but sometimes needs must) or a very early rush on a vulnerable neighbour. Hoplites might only give a couple of extra combat strength, but it's an easy couple of strength to activate and that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Really, my point is that they're a UU with an actual use case for my playstyle, which isn't something that can be said for all UUs.

Logios aren't my favourite great people but I find them easier to make work than the Tjatys. It feels easy enough to churn some out of a city that's not doing anything super important around mid-antiquity and reliably get some decent boosts for that stage of the game. Nothing incredible, but consistent, which I value in great people.

I said in the last thread that I put a lot of stock into unique buildings due to the benefit of simply having another permanent building generating yields of whatever type for you and I think Greece is a particularly good example of how powerful the pure yields can be. Happiness - especially ageless happiness - is always nice to mitigate the Great Specialist Crash upon entering the modern age, and culture (of which the Acropolis can generate a ton if you just drop some wonders next to it) is really nice given that both exploration and modern have civics you really want to rush at the very start of the tree. Extra culture buildings gives you a big leg up over everyone else whose amphitheatres or pavilions have just become obsolete. Not to mention the extra influence, which as mentioned above, is always welcome. The actual quarter effect is extremely underwhelming, but I think that's fine because it's really more about the buildings themselves and their yields. Also, I find this to be a really aesthetically pleasing UQ.

I think for every one of these so far I've written the traditions off as being fine, and finally we have someone where they're a bit more notable. Commander XP and extra influence towards befriending IPs, endeavors, and sanctions are all great at pretty much any stage of the game. Commander XP is nice early to get commanders online faster (I quite like getting initiative, the first one on the movement tree, and then down to the point on the yellow tree that increases their capacity as quickly as possible to maximise their potential as troop transport), and then remains useful to get to the late-tree promotions and commendations to reality turn your commanders into assets. Endeavors remain relevant all game since they're a key aspect of diplomacy and getting other civs to like you (and early on, can provide nice yield boosts for snowballing), and befriending IPs is something you're always looking to do to some extent (probably a large extent, if you lean into Greece's playstyle and run with it for subsequent civ picks). The sanctions one isn't as influential but keeping it slotted in will still be nice for denouncements. And yes, there are diplo attributes that discount all these, but porque no los dos? They stack, and the more influence you save, the better.

Oracle is an extremely whatever wonder but it's pretty much guaranteed for you as Greece. If nothing else, it's an adjacency stick for the Acropolis. You'll probably have somewhere to put it, with the rough bias. On that note, rough is a fantastic bias for early production, and as mentioned in the Carthage thread, I like grassland too, thanks to its wonders being solid. All that rough also lets you grab the Emile Bell easily, netting you another diplo point to get those tree nodes online quicker.

Overall, I think the reason Greece feels so good to me is that they give you so much influence to play with. Between directly generating it and letting you save so much with their traditions, they're by far the best antiquity civ for it (again, this is in a world where hub town spam isn't a thing and influence is scarce). It's an extremely versatile resource and you can't ever really have too much of it. You can constantly run endeavors through to an endgame with loads of alliances and crazy yields from the late-tree attributes, befriend and boost every IP you come across for a similar effect with CS bonuses, stockpile it for ludicrous amounts of war support - it factors into so many playstyles, and being able to do as much of all those things as possible is very valuable. Throw in solid culture buildings and serviceable UUs and you have a civ that feels great to play, imo. For culture especially, but easily flexible enough to make any legacy path work.

The influence honestly makes Greece a solid generalist pick that work with pretty much any leader, but the most notable examples that come to mind are:
- Catherine: build high-adjacency Acropolises and convert that culture into science
- Tecumseh: city state shenanigans
- Ben: put all that influence to use on as many endeavours as possible and make loads of friends. Extra Emile Bell synergy here
- Science Himiko: save even more influence thanks to her free endeavor support so you have an even bigger stockpile to do whatever else you want with
- Trung Trac: Stratagoi + her leader ability + Terracotta Army makes for crazy fun commander levelling
- Harriet Tubman: she goes crazy with pretty much anyone but spending all your influence on sanctioning everyone you meet to get them to hate you and declare war seems like a funny way to make the sanctions tradition work

Lastly, Greece unlocks a lot of nice civs. Granted, most of them aren't too difficult to unlock "manually" (Spain being the big exception), but it's still another asset for Greece. They're also pretty varied, allowing you to take the flexibility of Greece in many directions depending on your game and playstyle - Normans run with the happiness and culture; Spain retains a culture element but brings in gold and pushes you towards some conquest, and; Bulgaria goes further into a fully militaristic exploration. Russia in modern is a bit weird and probably less useful lol.

Perhaps the most obvious progression to mention, though, is Shawnee and then Siam (both of which are easily unlocked, especially Shawnee if you're leaning into Greece's playstyle). I've just gotten around to doing a Tecumseh game with this combo and would highly recommend it if you've not done it yet. Really good fun seeing how crazy your steamrolls at war can get.

 

[sixty4half]

But; aren't Hoplites the weakest of the UU? +2 CS isn't much compared to what the other UUs bring.

 

[Navelgazer]

But; aren't Hoplites the weakest of the UU? +2 CS isn't much compared to what the other UUs bring.

Correct! And they have to be next to each other to even get that +2.

But... Greece wants to get lots of suzerains. So, let's say you get 4 suzerains (a pretty manageable number as Greece.) Then, with the Agoge civic mastery, you get +4 on the Hoplites from that. Then, say that one of those City States was a Militaristic one, and you picked Marca as your bonus - that's another +4. And if you're playing as Tecumseh, well, that's another +4.

So, under the right circumstances, you can make them monsters. But you've got to put the work in for it.

 

[Rob Airdrie]

Greece is one civ I find it really easy and enjoyable to role play - especially with the great people, beautiful acropoli and the number of greco-style wonders you can build. Now that we can rename commanders I love marching across the continent with my strategoi-enhanced Alexander, Leonidas and Pericles whilst Plato, Pythagoras and Sappho preach philosophy back home.

 

[disjointaccount]

But; aren't Hoplites the weakest of the UU? +2 CS isn't much compared to what the other UUs bring.

Yeah, but my point was more just about them fitting my playstyle. I tend not to use later infantry UUs at all since by mid-antiquity I'm typically just fielding an army of cavalry for the rest of the game. Ranged only really comes into play if I'm ever on defence, which doesn't always happen. Not to mention stuff like the Dhow.

It's only a couple of CS, but it comes at a time when I'm actually using infantry and it's a couple of CS more than if I just had regular warriors. This is definitely a playstyle-dependent thing, but for me it means I can get some value out of the hoplites.

 

[Leucarum]

All the good points have been made already! Maybe that's because Greece is a very narrowly focussed Civ. Fortunately for Greece, their focus is on maximizing the efficiency of the hardest yield to maximize. If you play as Greece you definitely will have a very singular focus, but it is a good focus! I enjoy them a lot, but they could maybe do with a smattering of features to encourage a little variety in playstyle.

For all the civs wirh unique Great People, I really wish you could choose from 2-3 when you built them. The RNG is a killer for their utility.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Greece is my number 2 after Maya.
Collect all city states and stack bonuses.
Good district that also helps with science path in the next age.
Almost never use the great people. Useless more than half the time.

 

[UWHabs]

I finished a Greek game, and it was fun. They get a little bit of mixed legacies - it was hard to remember which of the 3 I needed to have slotted in, to remember if I needed to renew my sanctions, endeavors, or city-state actions, so I often found myself needing to wait a couple turns to get the discount.

I played them as Machiavelli, and it was great, because you get cheap CS actions, and you're definitely going to be actively using sanctions with him since the AI pretty much just will always accept them, so you get a free method to turn influence into cash whenever you need it.

 

[Memoryjar]

I dislike Greece for their terrain requirement for Parthenon and RNG for Logios. Beside Greece feels average. I don’t underestimate it when you reach several cities states as suzerain, but, out of, that what can I do ? They have some synergies with some leaders.
Traditions can be a nice take over in exploration age or moder age. The point is, for antiquity their are one of my last pick with Rome.

 

[j51]

Greece is one civ I find it really easy and enjoyable to role play - especially with the great people, beautiful acropoli and the number of greco-style wonders you can build. Now that we can rename commanders I love marching across the continent with my strategoi-enhanced Alexander, Leonidas and Pericles whilst Plato, Pythagoras and Sappho preach philosophy back home.

That’s a great idea! I forgot about the renaming.

Greece is a really fun in terms of role playing. All of its pieces fit well together in representing a popular conception of classical Greece.

 

[Nikolai II]

Greece is one of those civs I think would suit my builder mainly playstyle well, but which I have not played much.

 

[Navelgazer]

Greece is one of those civs I think would suit my builder mainly playstyle well, but which I have not played much.

As a builder myself, I think it really is. Currently, I think "7 Wonders" is one of the hardest legacy paths to complete, and Greece gives you a real shot at it, between consistently strong culture generation and a rough start bias to aid in production. And as has been said, the Acropolis is a quite good unique quarter, that also happens to give aesthetic class to the look of your cities for the whole game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And as has been said, the Acropolis is a quite good unique quarter, that also happens to give aesthetic class to the look of your cities for the whole game.

Totally agree.

I just wish there was an option for someone with a Modern Age Mortar or Exploration Age Bombard to blow the whole thing to tasteful Ruins for the rest of the game . . .

 

[j51]

Totally agree.

I just wish there was an option for someone with a Modern Age Mortar or Exploration Age Bombard to blow the whole thing to tasteful Ruins for the rest of the game . . .

With the ages system runs really should be a thing.

 

[Sagax]

In my games Greece definitely felt more like a strong setup civ for future ages rather than a strong civ in its own age (not to say that it’s weak, though - it’s just solid). Percentage-based traditions obviously scale well, plus the rough terrain bias is always welcome for a production-centric meta. CS abundance is more prone to chance in Antiquity, so that aspect of Greece doesn’t feel super consistent. Things, however, change quickly in Exploration, as you reveal the map and IPs more actively.

I’ll need to look into all the Antiquity traditions again with their exact numbers (ahem…. dear Firaxis, when?), but based on vibes alone I felt like Greece’s traditions are all up there in terms of relevancy in future ages. Kind of thematic, I guess?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

With the ages system runs really should be a thing.

Given how many of the Wonders and Unique Quarters in the game did not survive intact, not having the option of them appearing in the next Age as ruins giving some kind of Culture boost is (another) major lack in the design.

I think you can re-purpose the Colliseum Wonder for some minor benefits in Exploration, but that's the only on-going Wonder regrade that I can remember off hand.

Since the Pyramids and the Egyptian Sphinx were already Tourist attractions in 400 BCE, there's a lot of room to add some interesting aspects to the Age transition with them.