Civ engineers

[McPolle]

Hi guys,

I have just found that in towns I can make citizens into engineers.

Which is quite cool, because I have just conquered the Spanish, and in their old towns they produce no production, but when I change their citizens into engineers heh presto I have production again.

I hate to think how much production i have lost because of this.

Polle

 

[lbhhh]

Civil engineers are new to conquests...I agree they are a huge boost to corrupted cities. OTOH the production bonus is only towards city improvements and wonders, so tough luck for military units.

 

[ybbor]

actually you can still use them for military units by starting with something of similar value & then switching production, works well w/ ICBMs

FYI civ engineers available w/ replaceable parts

 

[lbhhh]

Originally posted by ybbor
actually you can still use them for military units by starting with something of similar value & then switching production, works well w/ ICBMs

Good point...

But is it considered an exploit?

 

[EmperorJay]

If you would have 100 bricks stored for a house and you decide to build a barn of it instead, would you throw away the 100 bricks because they were intended for something else?

I don't know if it's an exploit, but it can be explained rationally if that's enough for you.

 

[Black Waltz]

But if you had 100 bricks stored for a house and then you decided to build a Tank I think you may have a bit of a problem...

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by EmperorJay
If you would have 100 bricks stored for a house and you decide to build a barn of it instead, would you throw away the 100 bricks because they were intended for something else?

I don't know if it's an exploit, but it can be explained rationally if that's enough for you.

That's true for bricks. But if you're building a cathedral (stone, bricks, mortar, architectural design) and want to switch to an armored division (tanks, men, equipment and all) how much of the resources you've put into the cathedral will be useful for the armored division?
OTOH, this abliity to switch projects in midstream has existed in Civ3 all along. I don't look at this specific case as being any more of an exploit. I know the AI switches builds at times and I assume that if it uses CE's, it'll be able to switch builds with them, too.

 

[EmperorJay]

Originally posted by Black Waltz
But if you had 100 bricks stored for a house and then you decided to build a Tank I think you may have a bit of a problem...

Ok you got me there hehe. But since the only thing that is used for building in Civ3 is shields (and shields aren't used for cathedrals either), I think that transporting the shields from one project to another is absolutely normal, no matter what the next project is.

 

[Fanny Brice]

Of course it is an exploit. But the only person that matters to is you. If you are playing a solo epic game, you should use your own "house rules." If you want to maximize the loopholes of the game, go for it. If not, limit yourself.

It is an exploit because you are getting the benefit of the CE's production bonus for a build that you would not normally get it for.

If you are playing Multiplayer, then follow the established game rules if any.

 

[globester]

research stonetanks :/

 

[slothman]

Remember that some "exploits" might be fixed in a later patch. So if you get used to using engineers for units and they later fix it you will be sorry.

 

[ltcoljt]

What is this endless fascination with exploits. If you idiots stopped to think about it if you leveled the playing field equally between the AI and human then, in a standard game the human would only win one in eight tries. Who would even play that?

 

[Grille]

originally posted by Black Waltz:
But if you had 100 bricks stored for a house and then you decided to build a Tank I think you may have a bit of a problem...

Right.

If you order a factory as build project in an ultra corrupt city (=1spt production capacity), hire 5 CEs, wait 10 turns, what gives?

110 shields in production box after 10 turns.
Now switch to unit production, eg. switch to MA. Here you fooled yourself, because formerly contributed CE-shields are now removed from the production box. Anti-exploit, I think...

Another thing, about hiring CEs in conquered cities:
You do not get CE shields in case you hire CEs for the matter of starving the city down. They die before they give shields (contrary to scientists/taxmen, these give beakers/gold before they starve).

 

[trevor]

But does the game track where each shield come from? If it does, then this "exploit" can be "fixed." However, I doubt this is the case.

 

[Grille]

AFAIK it already tracks CE shields (even in v1.00).

That is, I was perfidious enough to switch from improvement (or wonder) build project to unit... and got slapped in the face.

 

[Grille]

To show you, here's a couple of shots:
1) turn1, CE hired, temple ordered; 20 turns to completion, 3 spt in total:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/cetest1.jpg
2) turn2, 3 shields accumulated in production box, 19 turns left to complete temple:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/cetest2.jpg
3) still turn2, switched prod to artillery, box reduced to one shield (CE shields removed). If anything, there's some discrepancy about the turns to completion towards artillery (line above prod box says rightfully 79 turns, item list shows 77 turns). CE icon now doesn't show the 2 shields anymore:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/cetest3.jpg
4) still turn2, after switching to arty, I switched back to temple production. Arty cost is now updated. Note that while both happened in the same turn, I left the city screen between shot 3) and shot 4) and I got the formerly contributed CE shields back:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/cetest4.jpg
5) turn3, (as you can see under the city name in the center of that pic) after having finally switched to arty again in turn2, I switched back to temple. One round of engineer work was lost (CE was hired all the time), of course, but I got the CE shields back from his work in turn2:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/cetest5.jpg

So as far as I can tell, there's no abuse possible.
As side-effect, CE would not "secretly" pile up shields for improvement/wonder builds in case he was hired while a city produced a bunch of units. Such shields would be lost.

(Now that I'm done with it, I curse myself to not have tried to rush the arty and look if I'd get 2 shields towards temple as next project... )

 

[Commander Bello]

This is really crazy!

Sometimes I get the impression that there is a fraction amongst the developers who really don't like the players too much.
This thing with the CEs really looks as if they had a meeting and decided: "Ok, we got lost in the corruption issues. Now, let's give him some means to fight it. But they shouldn't be really helpful. How can we limit their use in the most crazy way?"

Every production in the whole game is based on shields. On anonymous shields, which are not project related. You may switch back and forth, just as you wish. But out of a sudden, shields SEEM to be taken away, but are still kept in the internal memory, somewhere.
I mean, what happens to the poor guy who started with the construction of a factory, stockpiled some 60 shields with the help of the CEs, now gets backstabbed by an enemy and switches to tank production?
If the same thing happened without the CEs, he will switch all the 60 shields, if with, he suddenly lacks some 10 shields....

That is, what really makes me mad with a lot of the concepts in this game. They are not developed in a logical way, but just to confuse the human player and to limit game fun.
Most probably, in the next release we will find that you may switch production, but only if the former project was not for any cultural building and if the new one is for a unit with more then 2 mov, but less than 3 defense. Furthermore, it will only work if you have a barracks in that given town, but no in your capital....

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Commander Bello
This is really crazy!

Sometimes I get the impression that there is a fraction amongst the developers who really don't like the players too much.
This thing with the CEs really looks as if they had a meeting and decided: "Ok, we got lost in the corruption issues. Now, let's give him some means to fight it. But they shouldn't be really helpful. How can we limit their use in the most crazy way?"

Every production in the whole game is based on shields. On anonymous shields, which are not project related. You may switch back and forth, just as you wish. But out of a sudden, shields SEEM to be taken away, but are still kept in the internal memory, somewhere.
I mean, what happens to the poor guy who started with the construction of a factory, stockpiled some 60 shields with the help of the CEs, now gets backstabbed by an enemy and switches to tank production?
If the same thing happened without the CEs, he will switch all the 60 shields, if with, he suddenly lacks some 10 shields....

That is, what really makes me mad with a lot of the concepts in this game. They are not developed in a logical way, but just to confuse the human player and to limit game fun.
Most probably, in the next release we will find that you may switch production, but only if the former project was not for any cultural building and if the new one is for a unit with more then 2 mov, but less than 3 defense. Furthermore, it will only work if you have a barracks in that given town, but no in your capital....

Its called developers ego. It is not important that the fans enjoy the game; to the contrary, it is only important to them that we play in accordance with their will. Game gods...in their own minds.

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


Its called developers ego. It is not important that the fans enjoy the game; to the contrary, it is only important to them that we play in accordance with their will. Game gods...in their own minds.

Hehe.
Obviously, this thread shows that there's different opinions among the fans. So you can hardly say the developers do stuff that collides with fans' interests in general.

One group of players accept (at least I think so) the intended CE rules; on top of that, some were even worrying that a player might circumvent these rules (see the exploit discussion above).

So if some rule does not fit to your personal opinion, how do you get the impression that every fan is opposed to these rules??

 

[Eyeoftiger]

Something you guys are failing to consider is the policeman. He takes a wasted shield and converts it into a useable shield. If you want to use specialists to produce units in your newly conquered, corruption-laden cities, use him.