Civ engineers

[McPolle]

Maybe I should learn a bit more about these special types.

My games never seem to last as long as the modern times, am always dead or restarted by then.

This is the first time I am in the modern times with a decent army, am the first on my con´tinent with tanks, maybe should use them whilst I have the advatage.

Polle

 

[microbe]

I wish the governor could be smart enough to use CE/Policemen.

 

[Rellin]

Yep, the Governor is the AI and it is truly sad he doesn't know how to use them cause that means the AI doesn't and it is imbalancing and a major flaw in the game.

Having a more intelligent Governor that uses the luxary slider, uses specialists when appropriate, places laborers on the best tiles to avoid waste and achieve immediate goals, to not sit with one turn left to produce a settler for 5 turns while it waits for the city to grow to size 3, and uses workers in the most efficient way would make the game so much more fun and reduce the need for insane AI bonuses on difficulties to make the game challenging.

I hope Civ4 corrects these problems, one can only hope and pray, but I do have faith in Firaxis as this game series has owned for a long time, and it the best strategy game out there, just hope it doesn't turn out like a MOO3 in the end.

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Rellin
Yep, the Governor is the AI and it is truly sad he doesn't know how to use them cause that means the AI doesn't and it is imbalancing and a major flaw in the game.

Having a more intelligent Governor that uses the luxary slider, uses specialists when appropriate, places laborers on the best tiles to avoid waste and achieve immediate goals, to not sit with one turn left to produce a settler for 5 turns while it waits for the city to grow to size 3, and uses workers in the most efficient way would make the game so much more fun and reduce the need for insane AI bonuses on difficulties to make the game challenging.

I hope Civ4 corrects these problems, one can only hope and pray, but I do have faith in Firaxis as this game series has owned for a long time, and it the best strategy game out there, just hope it doesn't turn out like a MOO3 in the end.

I think you fail to understand that it is impossible for the AI to be improved to the extent necessary to do the things you want it to do. So the choices are"

1. Simplify the game to the point that the AI can complete. Taking to the extreme would be a computerized game of tic-tac-toe.
2. Add complexities to the game which many of us would find fun at the expense of making the AI less competitive. I would prefer this to #1. If I want a challenge I can PBEM against humans (assuming Firaxis can develop a solid PBEM module) or play via a lan or the internet.
3. Add the complexities and balance the game by giving the AI insane bonuses. This is actually the best option but some people can't grasp the concept.

My feeling is that humans will always find a way to best the AI so option #1 is a dead end. If you want a perfectly balanced game with a competitive AI play chess.

SMAC was much more fun than Civ3 even though the AI was hopeless. Fun is a very important part of the gaming experience. The folks at Firaxis need to understand that and incorporate it into Civ4 or the franchise is in trouble. Civ3 is a challenge at the highest levels, not a challenge to beat the AI, we will do that, but a challenge to endure the uninspired, simplistic, linear, plodding and repetitive gameplay. How many times can you click click click through a massive artillery barage or move 100 workers a turn without going into zombieland?

 

[Rellin]

The just need more advanced formulas to aid the AI in decision process, more if/then statements or what not. I'm sure many players on this forum can point out when the current if/then statements are poor, but programming/coding it is up to the game designers.

Your comment about workers made me think about something else though that the player does and the AI does not, and that is making tons of workers, maybe it should be capped like armies and you can only have 2 workers per town/city and 3 for metros, or something like that, and then the AI could strive for the number, or something like that.

But anyway, I am sure the AI can be made better, and saying it can not be, is just a cop-out, and if Firaxis can't do it cause it "can't be done" then some other company or innovative young programmer will eventually come along, and will infact do the impossible, it is just a matter of time.

 

[Commander Bello]

Originally posted by ltcoljt

I think you fail to understand that it is impossible for the AI to be improved to the extent necessary to do the things you want it to do. [...]

Why should it be impossible to make the AI make "clever" decisions?

My built-in navigation system optimizes my path through the most densely built areas in Europe and does it online, realtime, based on traffic info. This just takes a second.
And on a modern PC with calculating powers that we would have dreamed of 10 years ago, it should not be possible to manage an area of 21 tiles, and a city of 20 citizens which can only have 6 different characteristics?
Optimization is one of the things, we use computers for. So, it shouldn't be too difficult to implement this in a game like Civ.

 

[akillias]

NICE EXPLOIT

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


I think you fail to understand that it is impossible for the AI to be improved to the extent necessary to do the things you want it to do.

I don't expect AI to be as smart as human beings, but I want at least it is possible to "hint" the AI and make it more flexible.

I want the governor to manage my cities - too tedious for myself to manually manage them and deal with disorders. (how many of you don't use governors?)

Now I want to be able to tell the AI: I'm going to build this temple, give me an optimized combo of food/shield/CE/Policemen so I could build this temple in the shortest time. AI need to balance between food, existing shields and potential shields from CE and policemen.

We already have a "emphasis on food/shield" option in the governor screen, and I'd like it to use CE/PM in the latter - and take into account the potential population increase too (which currently it doesn't anyway).

 

[Spadark]

Engineers r not so useful as i think ,cos they produce shields and waste as well ,policmen can reduce shields and cor as well.always the same number eng and pol make the same turns to bulid a thing but policmen make more gold.

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by Spadark
Engineers r not so useful as i think ,cos they produce shields and waste as well ,policmen can reduce shields and cor as well.always the same number eng and pol make the same turns to bulid a thing but policmen make more gold.

Engineer's shields are never wasted (unless you'd produce a unit), their contribution is constantly 2spt (per CE).
Corruption level of the city does not matter, you'd get always 2 spt in an ultra-corrupt cities from an engineer.

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by microbe


I don't expect AI to be as smart as human beings, but I want at least it is possible to "hint" the AI and make it more flexible.

I want the governor to manage my cities - too tedious for myself to manually manage them and deal with disorders. (how many of you don't use governors?)

Now I want to be able to tell the AI: I'm going to build this temple, give me an optimized combo of food/shield/CE/Policemen so I could build this temple in the shortest time. AI need to balance between food, existing shields and potential shields from CE and policemen.

We already have a "emphasis on food/shield" option in the governor screen, and I'd like it to use CE/PM in the latter - and take into account the potential population increase too (which currently it doesn't anyway).

Well I have been playing computer games for just about as long as their have been computer games and I have never used a governor at any time. What would be the fun of that?

I would say 80-90% of long time civ players never use governors.

Microbe do you remember watching black and white tv, using a slide rule and getting milk delivered to your door?

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Commander Bello




Why should it be impossible to make the AI make "clever" decisions?

My built-in navigation system optimizes my path through the most densely built areas in Europe and does it online, realtime, based on traffic info. This just takes a second.
And on a modern PC with calculating powers that we would have dreamed of 10 years ago, it should not be possible to manage an area of 21 tiles, and a city of 20 citizens which can only have 6 different characteristics?
Optimization is one of the things, we use computers for. So, it shouldn't be too difficult to implement this in a game like Civ.

I was thinking of the AI's strategic overview of the game, not the simple mechanics of managing one city. The task of navigation you cited before is infinitely less complex than the most basic strategic level thinking required to play a civ game.

 

[Rellin]

The reason the Governor should be good is not for players, hell players shouldn't be allowed to even use it, well that doesn't matter, the reason it needs to be good is so the AI makes intelligent decisions for its Civs.

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Rellin
The just need more advanced formulas to aid the AI in decision process, more if/then statements or what not. I'm sure many players on this forum can point out when the current if/then statements are poor, but programming/coding it is up to the game designers.

Your comment about workers made me think about something else though that the player does and the AI does not, and that is making tons of workers, maybe it should be capped like armies and you can only have 2 workers per town/city and 3 for metros, or something like that, and then the AI could strive for the number, or something like that.

But anyway, I am sure the AI can be made better, and saying it can not be, is just a cop-out, and if Firaxis can't do it cause it "can't be done" then some other company or innovative young programmer will eventually come along, and will infact do the impossible, it is just a matter of time.

Well, you are right and you are wrong. And you will wait a long, long time for eventually to come along.

Based on the current model game design and development cycles are not built around producing sound gameplay with high end AI. Much of the budget goes to art and sound in the first place. As the game code is cobbled together things change constantly making the task of the AI coding impossible. Its hard to hit a moving target. Heck, most games are released in what we used to think of a beta state and require immediate and frequent patches to even function. How you can expect a good AI to come out of this environment is beyond me.

Personally I think that since the gaming public is very mature (see age polls) Firaxis could have doubled their budget, developed a truely groundbreaking game, and sold the same number of units at twice the price. I'd pay $ 500 to get the civ game we have all been dreaming of...and it would still be an entertainment bargin. Maybe someday someone bold will do this and take gaming to the next level.

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by Rellin
The reason the Governor should be good is not for players, hell players shouldn't be allowed to even use it, well that doesn't matter, the reason it needs to be good is so the AI makes intelligent decisions for its Civs.

I agree with you here. No excuse for it really, except that as long as we pay for slop they will keep shoveling it out. Personally, I used to buy 2 new releases a month and did so for a long time. Now, I might buy one game at full price per year. I wait for the rest to hit the bargin bin. No need to reward the industry for recycling the same old crap with updated graphics, which is basically all that has happened the past few years.

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


Well I have been playing computer games for just about as long as their have been computer games and I have never used a governor at any time. What would be the fun of that?

Really? I think I'd have to make a poll out of it.

I'd like to ask: what's the fun of constantly monitoring your 50+ cities to make sure they use the tiles efficiently, never go to disorder, etc? That kind of tedious job had better be left to computers. Human beings do the most important thing: making strategic decisions.

Manually manage cities when your empire is small. But as it grows you'd better hand off it to computers.

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by microbe


Really? I think I'd have to make a poll out of it.

I'd like to ask: what's the fun of constantly monitoring your 50+ cities to make sure they use the tiles efficiently, never go to disorder, etc? That kind of tedious job had better be left to computers. Human beings do the most important thing: making strategic decisions.

Manually manage cities when your empire is small. But as it grows you'd better hand off it to computers.

What can I say. Managing the workers and the cities is the essence of civ. Without which I can't imagine playing. There are tons of games out there that are better than civ in terms of strategic play. There is no strategy to Civ3. Name some. I dare you.

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


What can I say. Managing the workers and the cities is the essence of civ. Without which I can't imagine playing. There are tons of games out there that are better than civ in terms of strategic play. There is no strategy to Civ3. Name some. I dare you.

OK then, let's agree to disagree. To me CIV is a strategy game, to you it's a micromanagement game.

 

[Dragonlord]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


Personally I think that since the gaming public is very mature (see age polls) Firaxis could have doubled their budget, developed a truely groundbreaking game, and sold the same number of units at twice the price. I'd pay $ 500 to get the civ game we have all been dreaming of...and it would still be an entertainment bargin. Maybe someday someone bold will do this and take gaming to the next level.

I fully agree! Though $ 500 is a bit extreme..

But I also feel that any true Civ fanatic would pay twice the price (at least) for an even better game with better AI.

Since I hardly ever play any other games than Civ anymore, I'd personally pay just about any price for the ultimate Civ! And highest priority here would be a better AI, with competent governers to reduce micromanagement....

 

[Dragonlord]

Back on topic: I find the Civil Engineers to be very, very powerful. They finally make it possible to realistically build improvements in all those totally corrupt cities I take from the AI on Domination. Well-irrigated cities can support up to 5 or 6 CEs, sometimes allowing me to build a Temple in 4 or 5 turns, instead of 60!

My previous strategy had been to disband draftees in those cities and rush-buy the rest, now there is finally an alternative!