Civ power rankings 0.33d

[darrelljs]

I like this idea of extending the firebow concept. It's less micromanagement intensive than Govannon is.

Yeah, the micro is painful with Govannon. I was thinking the other day it would be neat if he got access to some special promotions: Necromancy 1/2/3, Elementalims 1/2/3, Alteration 1/2/3, and Divination 1/2/3. So, for example Necromancy 1 would grant access to the 1st level spells for Chaos/Death/Shadow/Entropy mana if you have access to the appropriate mana.

Darrell

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd start by changing Govannon's training spells to a passive PyPerTurn ability, and making it sometimes also give a promotion that allows his students to teach their magic to others in the same way.

 

[Caradoc]

Make Govannon available with KofE, but grant the ability to teach one spell from each of the four domains -- as soon as the player researches that domain. E.g. Teach Fire comes with Elementalism. Would be really neat if player could choose the spell.

 

[·Imhotep·]

Hell yeah, Keelyn is brutal in 0.33. I play a Emperor game now where she is on the other continent and by turn 150 had swallowed up both Flauros and Os-Gabella. She is literally beating the crap out of the AIs and has now a score thrice that of of the other AI and myself...will be a fun game when I have finished the Dwarves and turn towards her .

 

[Switchblock]

I'd start by changing Govannon's training spells to a passive PyPerTurn ability, and making it sometimes also give a promotion that allows his students to teach their magic to others in the same way.

I'd rather have this than an expansion of the firebow concept, while bringing Govannon closer to the front of the tech tree. The Amurites are supposed to be the best and most numerous mage's in the world, and Govannon comes to late to support that theme early on.

 

[orangelex44]

I generally play Prince (yeah, I know, I'm a wimp - but I hate micromanaging at higher levels), Large, Pangea/Erebus maps. Occasionally I overload the number of AI's.

All these are based on score levels toward the endgame; in addition, I play more of a builder style so this is with minimal player influence.

Top: Elves (of whatever kind)
Vampires (God, I hate Decius)
Elohim
Clan

Bottom: Bannor
Grigori
Mercurians
Infernal
Kurios

Middle: Everyone else

Of special note: The Doviello seem to be a hit-or-miss in power. Either they conquer a couple neighbors (in congested maps) and become strong, or they head straight to the bottom. Also, the Bannor seem to vassalize in every single game, and always to some evil guys.

Of course, starting position has the most influence on points standings.


I would like to note that I don't really believe that this power imbalance is completely caused by the individual civilizations' benefits and limitations. Rather, the AI is only good at playing a few styles. For instance, the AI does very well with the extra population of the Calabim, but cannot cope with the late starting civs. The exception is the Bannor, who have no special tricks for the AI to misuse (and, in fact, are as "vanilla" as FFH gets), and therefore really shouldn't be at the bottom all the time.

 

[ShadowDrgn]

I had a thought that maybe the Lanun are perceived to be bad because people regularly reroll their single player starts until they get some flood plains and nice resources. Every land-based civ does exceptionally better when given a prime starting area, but the Lanun do fairly similarly on any start (unless you get stuck in the center of a huge pangaea). If you can get your settler to the coast in 2-3 turns, you can always fit 3 pirate ports on an L-shaped coast and 2 ports on straight coasts, plus you can use terrible terrain like tiny islands and ice for expansion areas. I really think that flexibility makes them better than they're given credit for, especially in multiplayer games where your friends are going to groan if you ask for a remake because your starting location sucks.

Also, I like Falamar more than Hannah for a few reasons. Charismatic means you get to work an extra plot, which is somewhat comparable to the extra 1 commerce from financial. Lower xp to level is better than raiders for arcane and naval units; use of enemy roads is limited when you have tons of boats anyway. The +2 relation bonus with female leaders is very helpful for getting open borders and world maps, which is a key Lanun strategy. Expansive +3 health is beneficial because you don't get many cities with forest and fresh water bonuses; double speed on building sea harbors is great because you'll want one at every city - markets and money changers, not so much. Even faster granaries are nice with slavery. Hannah is still good, but I don't think she's significantly better than Falamar.

 

[Caradoc]

Charismatic means you get to work an extra plot, which is somewhat comparable to the extra 1 commerce from financial.

How does that work?

 

[Chip56]

How does that work?

Simple: +1 happy.

 

[Ekolite]

Out of the civs I have played often enough to have some expirence with:

Top Tier:

1. Balseraphs (Keelyn) - The best of the best, Keelyn's puppet army is unstopable.

2. Svartalfar - Plenty of options in all areas of the tech tree. Excellent traits.

3. Hippus (Tasunke) - His Early Rushes can win you the game in under 100 turns.

4. Balseraphs (Perpentach) - Doesn't quite live up to Keelyn these days but still very powerful.

5. Luchuip (Beeri) - Once you start rolling out the Fire-throwing Golems nothing can stop you.

 

[westamastaflash]

As Hannah, your start is critical. You want to prioritize good early production over almost anything else: if you can start on a grassland hill next to water, with a forested hill in your fat cross, you win the game. No other leader can tech as fast as you, and if you weren't greedy for water resources in your first city, you can have at least one high-production centerspitting out raider/bronze Drown very early in the game.

And then you get Fanaticism and your Guards & Cultists just eat everyone else. Coves are ridiculous...

I'm not good on Emperor level, but with Hannah, it's game over for the AI... my 3 Speakers and 7 Stygian guards (each with 100+ exp) have systematically razed 40 or so ashen veil cities in my latest marathon game. Granted, marathon is biased towards the human anyway... but I've never owned like this (though hyborem, when I finally get to him, may be a bit of trouble, since I've given him hundreds of Manes trying to lower the AC by razing AV cities...)

 

[Yashkaf]

I play Immortal until I get the strats right, then Deity on huge fractals with all civs. normal speed.

Even on 0.32 I easily won a game with Perp and Loki by flipping a lot of cities from AI-AI wars. The dominating druids are also excellent. As for rushes, the Grigory aren't half bad. A simple warrior rush depends on plenty of luck: barbs to get some shock troopers, the AI not building a lot of warriors himself. In one of my first FfH games I had two adventurers: a warrior -> axeman -> slayer with shock, cover and CR3 and a horseman -> chariot with mobility drill 4 and blitz who conquered three civs basically by themselves. Alternatively, a scout adventurer with a quick line to animal handling can get you a huge animal army very quickly, and he doesn't even need hunting for anything up to elephants. A bear rush is like a warrioir rush only, well, much better. Plus, adapting to raiders or charisma before the attack is another plus. Not having to worry about the religion line just means you can focus on getting your adventurers to tier 3/4 much quicker.

Faeryl is also excellent and works well with most religions and neighbors.

Right now I'm playing with Ethne and her success depends a lot on luck. If you start next to the sheaim or balseraphs, you're set. I started next to Amelanchier and Mahala

The AI is very strong with any Ljos leader in every game I've played. He always gets FoL and is just unstoppable from there on. The other leader that the AI plays very strongly is Tebryn. He just spams fire zombies and rolls over anything in his path. I had one game when I reached the second continent and he had half of it for himself and the other half worshipping the veil and shaking in fear of him.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Wouldn't taking a Doviello city give you the ability to upgrade in the field? I'd rate that pretty high on abilities that can be gotten with tolerant.

The strongest thing about the Elohim is Sanctuary, not Tolerant, anyhow. Such an underappreciated and evil world spell. Makes you proof against the worst of luck because if like 5 people jump you at once, you cast it, blitz the hell out of one or two of them (they can't retake captured territory) and just wait the rest out.

 

[Yashkaf]

Sanctuary also great for builder victories. Makes you basically immune to dogpile at Altar (final) and Tower of Mastery. In another thread someone said you get upgrades at Dov cities at patch "e", I have "d"

 

[Mailbox]

Also, I like Falamar more than Hannah for a few reasons. Charismatic means you get to work an extra plot, which is somewhat comparable to the extra 1 commerce from financial. Lower xp to level is better than raiders for arcane and naval units; use of enemy roads is limited when you have tons of boats anyway. The +2 relation bonus with female leaders is very helpful for getting open borders and world maps, which is a key Lanun strategy. Expansive +3 health is beneficial because you don't get many cities with forest and fresh water bonuses; double speed on building sea harbors is great because you'll want one at every city - markets and money changers, not so much. Even faster granaries are nice with slavery. Hannah is still good, but I don't think she's significantly better than Falamar.

I have to disagree very strongly as the 1 happiness loses power quickly and Hannah recieves +50% more commerce from coastal tiles, something Falamar is unable to keep up with in this game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I like to call Falamar "Fail Omar" teehee. He just doesn't have the huge advantages that Hannah. Consider the Levels of units to start. Early on they are about the same. 8 xp vs 10 xp... well, you probably took two combats to get to it either way, meaning they equate out. However, once you get to like 26 xp vs 20, it may very likely have taken more than 6 combats in either case. The higher you get, the more the Raider has the advantage.

Further more, Raider starts with commando meaning you are the attacker in more cases than you would otherwise be, garnering additional experience, and giving you a better choice of defensive tiles when moving through enemy land.

Lastly, the Lanun are really an economy driven military. Mercs, cheap built units + upgrade costs, and similar, are what drive their forces. The double gold from pillaging improvements can literally pay for a merc based invasion force, especially once it gets a head of steam going (AKA, picks up some good promotions)

And that's just the Raider Trait. Financial trait is used by the Lanun more than any other civ, due to the readily available ocean squares, and the incredible benefits the Lanun get from these squares. Every single one gives you bonus trade via financial.

In the end, the small bonuses of Expansive/Organize just don't equal out.