Civ Switching - Will it prevent you from buying Civ 7?

[Ashbery76]

Civ6's A.I was the worst in the series..It did not even use Air forces until way late in development.Poor effort.

 

[TheGrayFox]

This is basically "nuh-uh" to what I said. The AI was not "atrocious" at launch. It feels worse now than it did on launch. And yes, they added stuff to the game. That's kind of what DLC is...not sure what your point is. Doesn't change the fact that on release Civ 6 had more features and systems than any other Civ game on release.

No it was a direct rebuttal to what you said. The AI in Civ 6 was atrocious at launch. The fact that it may have arguably gotten worse doesn't change that. Looking at it with rose tinted glasses isn't going to change the fact that its AI was lambasted at launch.

Completely incorrect. Civ 5 AI still can't even move and shoot on the same turn. Also, the constant use of hyperbole ("The most horrific one in the franchise history") detracts from your points. Everything is disastrous, terrible, horrific...

5's AI after expansion packs is better than 6s and many people who play Civilization 5 play with mods that specifically improve the AI's tactical logic. (which doesn't really exist for Civ 6). You can get mad at the hyperbole but this is how many people who played both feel. Which is why Civ 5 still has 1/3rd of the players that 6 has throughout most of its history

 

[ColtSeavers]

This is basically "nuh-uh" to what I said. The AI was not "atrocious" at launch. It feels worse now than it did on launch. And yes, they added stuff to the game. That's kind of what DLC is...not sure what your point is. Doesn't change the fact that on release Civ 6 had more features and systems than any other Civ game on release.

Completely incorrect. Civ 5 AI still can't even move and shoot on the same turn. Also, the constant use of hyperbole ("The most horrific one in the franchise history") detracts from your points. Everything is disastrous, terrible, horrific...

well ok, if you seriously think that Civ 6 AI is better than Civ 5's, i seriously dont know what else to say here...

 

[lt22677]

Civ6's A.I was the worst in the series..It did not even use Air forces until way late in development.Poor effort.

In addition to that, I found myself opposing Civilizations in the Modern Age with the warrior while I had the tanks, the AI did not play optimally, it did not play at all

 

[ColtSeavers]

This is basically "nuh-uh" to what I said. The AI was not "atrocious" at launch. It feels worse now than it did on launch. And yes, they added stuff to the game. That's kind of what DLC is...not sure what your point is. Doesn't change the fact that on release Civ 6 had more features and systems than any other Civ game on release.

Completely incorrect. Civ 5 AI still can't even move and shoot on the same turn. Also, the constant use of hyperbole ("The most horrific one in the franchise history") detracts from your points. Everything is disastrous, terrible, horrific...

And it was not meant as an exaggeration, Civ 6 mechanics were just too overloaded, AI couldnt handle it. Once you satified some of their agenda points and got a "green smiley" and managed to get a friendship declaration, you were off the hooks. No comparison to previous titels, where the AI was acctually able to "betray" you, which made the gameplay far more exciting. But i think, we got somewhat distracted here, this thread is acctually not about the AI!

 

[Zaarin]

It's the old role-playing vs power-gaming dichotomy. One of these design problems which are fundamentally unsolvable sadly.

Falling 100% on the side of roleplaying, I think it's very easy to solve.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

I think that immersive element is abandoned in favor of the design goals. I'm fine with it since so much of Civilization is just a thin patina of historicity on gameplay anyway, you know? But I get not liking the idea of Romangolia.

If you invented the name Romangolia then well done.

 

[Civinator]

Romangolia

 

[Thormodr]

My concerns are assuaged. I'm really excited for this and glad they're going this route.

Congrats. You are in the 19.5% that like this. 81.5% don't like it with varying degrees of us holding our noses about it.

 

[TheGrayFox]

I mean, the poll is kind of biased with its options, lots of people at the top of the thread complained about the lack of "I like it, but it's not the main reason I'll buy it" option. And a forum of old grognards debating every miniscule detail of the game and comparing it to old versions is not a representative sample of the 11,000,000+ players of Civ6 - it's unsurprising that it skews conservative when it comes to big changes.

This sounds like a big cope to me because i think those people just wouldn't have voted in a poll specifically about civ switching if they didn't have an opinion

 

[Professor Phobo]

No grognard community has ever liked a major change. I've never seen it happen. Even when the change turns out to breathe new life into a franchise.

As a grognard, I hate change, but you gotta be self-aware enough to realize there's a psychological bias against uncertain novelty in favor of known familiarity.

 

[cinattra]

What? French bread is from a few hundred years ago. France itself is a big mix of Greco-Roman, Celtic, and Germanic civilizations. The culture of France absolutely has changed over time (like anywhere else in the world).

All of Western civilization is a mixture of those cultures.

 

[TheGrayFox]

No grognard community has ever liked a major change. I've never seen it happen. Even when the change turns out to breathe new life into a franchise.

As a grognard, I hate change, but you gotta be self-aware enough to realize there's a psychological bias against uncertain novelty in favor of known familiarity.

This isn't true. There was not even close to as big of a backlash against 1 unit per tile, hexes, or destacking cities/district. Of course there were some legitimate concerns raised but half of the active forum base and every single community or comment section related to Civilization sequel wasn't outright against the ideas and loudly complaining about the direction, especially when they were first presented.

The only backlash I remember being even close to as decisive as this was 6's art style and thats why mods changing the art style to resemble 5 was the game's most popular and part of the reason why 1/3 of the Civ 6's playerbase still plays 5

But believing this would require me to change my beliefs, and as an old grognard, I'm against change, hence I can't believe this. No contradictions here, move along.

Hey look more disingenious argumentation and dismissive name calling because you can't actual argue or properly address the actual concerns being raised.

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. The_J

 

[BuchiTaton]

Baguettes are a post-revolution invention. So they did not give up their baguettes, because monarchical France did not even have them. Baguettes are just another example of culture changing

Requeriment to shift to France in Modern Age ... develop Baguettes!!!

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Seriously are we talking about a kind of bread to justify culture changes?
Of course that all culture change with time and revolutions, but it is absurd and misleading to talk about different kinds and level of change as if they were the same.
The point was that France before and after the revolution still was France. French had an ideological (goverment type) revolution, of course that was relevant but that ignore that other kind of civ shifts are going to be way more notorious to say the less.

Some people is talking about use the "imagination", so dont was easier to use that imagination to portrait the cultural changes before and after French revolution? You know things like technologies, civics, goverments and policies.
Keep ignoring that many shifts like the ones for France, England, China and Japan would be equivalent to what we already do with goverment+policies (also religion for others examples) is dishonest.

Firaxis want to allows us to go China>Arabia>India, OK perfect that is nice it could be fun. But why not let Aztecs have their own "Aztec Revolution" with monarch decapitation and all the funny things that come with it? Generic "Extreme" forms of goverment could be an alternative for revolutions it is doable as a gameplay and immersion alternative.

 

[Professor Phobo]

Oh man people haaaated the idea of 1UPT and hexes. The tile partisans fought for months!

Bottom line pointing to fan sentiment isn't really a "mic drop, argument over" moment, lots of things influence fan sentiment; people sometimes just don't like a change until they get used to it. Like maybe people are right, but far too often a modern classic is dismissed ahead of time by fans who only want More of That Thing I Liked Exactly As I Liked It Except For the One Tweak I Would Personally Make and No More. It's a recurring pattern in all fandoms and it's just human nature, you gotta watch out for it.

I'm basically not going to start hating on the game just because the forum hates it. I'll hate it for my own, completely nonsensical reasons like it made me spill my coke, thank you very much, if I do end up hating it.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Oh man people haaaated the idea of 1UPT and hexes. The tile partisans fought for months!

No they didn't. A loud minority may have complained about it but the reaction was NO WHERE close to what we're seeing with the civ changing and tactical combat was one of the most requested changes to be made to the series. Doom stacks was how many mad fun of combat in Civ.

Bottom line pointing to fan sentiment isn't really a "mic drop, argument over" moment, lots of things influence fan sentiment; people sometimes just don't like a change until they get used to it. Like maybe people are right, but far too often a modern classic is dismissed ahead of time by fans who only want More of That Thing I Liked Exactly As I Liked It Except For the One Tweak I Would Personally Make and No More. It's a recurring pattern in all fandoms and it's just human nature, you gotta watch out for it.

I'm basically not going to start hating on the game just because the forum hates it. I'll hate it for my own, completely nonsensical reasons like it made me spill my coke, thank you very much, if I do end up hating it.

Or its quite disingenious to compare the negative reactions between destacking cities/districts and civ swapping.

 

[cinattra]

Baguettes are a post-revolution invention. So they did not give up their baguettes, because monarchical France did not even have them. Baguettes are just another example of culture changing

So what you are telling me is the French never had baguettes (or any type of bread) before their revolution and that they only came about because they overthrew their oligarchs, that baguettes were invented because of the French Revolution? Were they just eating croissants, because that is what I hear?

How about these examples? Did the Americans stop loving guns once they escaped from the clutches of King George? Did the Hawaiians give up their leis when the US said these are our islands now? Have the Palestinians given up their religion or language despite about 80 years of occupation? Despite slavery and colonization, the African nations did not give up their local languages even though they had to adopt French as official languages.

 

[Professor Phobo]

No they didn't. A loud minority may have complained about it but the reaction was NO WHERE close to what we're seeing with the civ changing and tactical combat was one of the most requested changes to be made to the series. Doom stacks was how many mad fun of combat in Civ.



Or its quite disingenious to compare the negative reactions between destacking cities/districts and civ swapping.

Again, every major change to any franchise whose community I've followed, regardless of how well that change was later judged, was rejected at first. It's just how it goes. So pointing to a poll in a niche community forum is not a persuasive case for the underlying fact of whether or not the design decision is a bad one or not. You can make your own prediction and that's fine, but for all we know by the time Civilization 25 rolls around we'll be swapping civs twice a turn and people will love it.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Again, every major change to any franchise whose community I've followed, regardless of how well that change was later judged, was rejected at first. It's just how it goes. So pointing to a poll in a niche community forum is not a persuasive case for the underlying fact of whether or not the design decision is a bad one or not. You can make your own prediction and that's fine, but for all we know by the time Civilization 25 rolls around we'll be swapping civs twice a turn and people will love it.

I still disagree with your assertion that things like 1unit per tile, hexagons, and distrcits were "rejected" at first and not a heavily clamored for changes to the formula that generated tons of excitement (with a tiny minority complaining potential AI mishandling or tedium of micromanaging)

 

[lt22677]

Oh man people haaaated the idea of 1UPT and hexes. The tile partisans fought for months!

Bottom line pointing to fan sentiment isn't really a "mic drop, argument over" moment, lots of things influence fan sentiment; people sometimes just don't like a change until they get used to it. Like maybe people are right, but far too often a modern classic is dismissed ahead of time by fans who only want More of That Thing I Liked Exactly As I Liked It Except For the One Tweak I Would Personally Make and No More. It's a recurring pattern in all fandoms and it's just human nature, you gotta watch out for it.

I'm basically not going to start hating on the game just because the forum hates it. I'll hate it for my own, completely nonsensical reasons like it made me spill my coke, thank you very much, if I do end up hating it.

People didn't hate 1UPT just by chance, but for two reasons:

1) the AI was not able to use the system (it makes it incredibly difficult to move the various units optimally without creating traffic jams)

2) the System requires more extreme micromanagement (you have to line up the melee units in front of the launch units and the cavalry units on the flanks, but the map was much narrower than necessary given that it simulates continents while the units simulate a division that should stay where a combined army would fit) creating a move here, put there, move this way situation which is quite annoying.

So much so that the complaints surfaced once the game was released and not before