Civ V Beta 1
- Thread starter Ozbenno
- Start date
As i said i explored the world with 3 scouts as soon as i explored navigation. I didnt build a secound city. U are able to travel over the ocean with ships and land units if u researched navigation. But land units have just a 1 hex radius vision on water and only 4 movement points.
After ~ 100 rounds cultural CS give me more culture points than my main city and the puppet cities ... u should always buy building that gave u culture points as soon as u got enough money .... but u need money for the CS too ...this must be balanced ... its more important to spend money to maritim and cultural CS at the beginning but buying buildings after getting erimitage is important too!
i remember to have ~75 culture points per turn after 100 rounds, ~220 after 150 rounds, ~350 after 200 rounds and at the end round about 400
After ~ 100 rounds cultural CS give me more culture points than my main city and the puppet cities ... u should always buy building that gave u culture points as soon as u got enough money .... but u need money for the CS too ...this must be balanced ... its more important to spend money to maritim and cultural CS at the beginning but buying buildings after getting erimitage is important too!
i remember to have ~75 culture points per turn after 100 rounds, ~220 after 150 rounds, ~350 after 200 rounds and at the end round about 400
And here i thought my game would not get beaten.
Very good job.
Also its interresting to read how similar your play is compared to me.
That is a good approach actually, cause it means you dont need to rely on your scout getting a weapon upgrade. Downside is that you probably wont get as many ruins, but you can live with that.(in my current game i only got 3 if i remember correctly.)
Why didnt i think of this in my games. This is briliant!(military CS is of little value anyway)The other civs settled far away so i decided to take a military CS next to my with the same army
Not only do you have one extra AI to trade with, for extra gold income, but you will still reach your goal to have 2 puppets after the first 30 or so turns.(one luxury can support 2 puppet cities+capitol for quite a while.)
3 cities in total seems like the magic number to go for in the beginning.
Im almost certain that you wont get additional food from biology. Only extra culture from cultured CSs)
i didnt mean biology i mean acoustic .... biology gives the cultrural bonus .... corrected it 1 hour ago
And here i thought my game would not get beaten.
Very good job.
Also its interresting to read how similar your play is compared to me.
In some aspects ur review improved my play too ... so i hope we will beat the 1600
Doh, why have I been that focused on getting a second city for a port...
I actually even send my troops onto the next continent BEFORE I get a decent ship, but it never came to my mind that I dont even need one
But on the other hand the additional culture I needed took me about 15 turns to make up in the end and the 2nd city did provide some additional culture and a 2nd place to build wonders, too. So basically I might have been able to break the 1700 barrier, but most likely would still end up around 1650.
And yes, taking out a CS early does help, IIRC I had 4 cities at around turn 80 and the CS I took was even on the wanted list of another CS
And I suspect that I have underestimated the importance of GA at the beginning, too. While I wait for Chitchen Itza for my first GA I neglect to fire additional once later on unless I get a Great Artist. I think that it might be worth it to use a Great Scientist early on when you focus on research buildings anyway.
CharonJr
I actually even send my troops onto the next continent BEFORE I get a decent ship, but it never came to my mind that I dont even need one
But on the other hand the additional culture I needed took me about 15 turns to make up in the end and the 2nd city did provide some additional culture and a 2nd place to build wonders, too. So basically I might have been able to break the 1700 barrier, but most likely would still end up around 1650.
And yes, taking out a CS early does help, IIRC I had 4 cities at around turn 80 and the CS I took was even on the wanted list of another CS
And I suspect that I have underestimated the importance of GA at the beginning, too. While I wait for Chitchen Itza for my first GA I neglect to fire additional once later on unless I get a Great Artist. I think that it might be worth it to use a Great Scientist early on when you focus on research buildings anyway.
CharonJr
I did one last game to try a few new things out and fixing some mistakes.(sorry WC-Ente I almost finished this game as you posted yours. )
It turned out to be quite a good game and i won in 1560AD - 222 turns(needed 7 hammers to finish one turn earlier. )
First i did go tradition for the 33% wonder production as erajah suggested. It was kinda messy though as i lacked SP points so i ended up getting the bonus quite late. I still have a hard time figuring out if its optimal, but in any case it doesnt cost you more than 3 turns max, so its not a big loss(assuming you get about 350-400 SP points per turn during the endgame.
My order was:
Unlocking Tradition -> Unlocking Patronage -> Aesthetics -> Philanthropy -> Scholaticism -> Aristocracy -> Cultural diplomacy -> Unlocking the freedom tree -> Constitution.
If i took Aristocracy first it would result in me having to wait to get my maritime CS policies, and that just didnt seem worthwhile. Therefore i got it as late as i did.
Unlocking the tradition tree first was not optimal either, but i needed that extra food badly in my capital, to remain stagnent.
I managed to get 2 puppet cities(london and Istanbul in 33 or so turns(even got 2 extra workers also
)
I beelined to Acoustics like last game
Pottery - Calendar - mining - writing - masonry - philosophy - Theology - Education(GL) - Acoustics(GS)
But this game i reached it in 62 turns!!(This must be quite close to what is even theoretically possible atm)
My goal for my capitol, was to get to size 4. Then put 2 people into the library(which i bought), while the others focused on wonders(my city was stagnant at this point)
When i had the CS SPs needed i allied with 2 maritime CS for a +10 food bonus in my capitol. From there on i spent my gold on allying cultured CSs.
Then i got horseback riding, and beelined to Astronomy
Animal husbandry - The wheel - Horseback riding - sailing - optics - compass - astronomy
I made sure i had 3-4 horsemen to find and invade the other continent(s) as soon as astronomy was up.(only one AI remained on my continent(america)
Basically i conquered the first city on the other continent around turn 110.
After this i finally went for Civil service.(mostly cause i didnt work many farmed river tiles.
I think i did make a mistake here as i probably should have taken trapping much earlier so i could start making trading posts in my puppet cities.(instead of farms)
Especially my gold income was a problem during this stage, to the point where i could'nt just buy all my buildings and focus on wonders only.(had to build monument, temple and one other myself)
Beelined to biology:
Trapping - Civil Service - Navigation - Archaeology - Scientific Theory(oxford uni) - Biology(GS)
Biology i got much earlier this game for the extra culture gain.
Then beelining to Printing press.
Cause i spent a extra GS early i had to invent Steam Power myself this time.
Electricity was invented using another GS and Telegraph using the GS from The Porcelain Tower.
Also this game i was much more aggressive and ended up with more puppets(19 in the end)
I even had to be careful not to take the last AI capital )
Its the first game where i have managed to basically conquer the whole world, with my small army.
After Christo was done i still had to wait some 15 turns to finish the remaining SPs.
To save some turns in the endgame i focused solely on growing my capital after christo was finished to get as many hammers as possible once i had to start the Utopia project.
Also as soon as i unlocked the last policy i annexed as many cities as i could without going below 0 happiness.(annexed the oldest ones)
These cities focused solely on research(building research also)
This way i could get to plastics and Ecology faster, and buy a hydro plant in my capital + a solar plant. That saved me 3 or 4 turns.
Electricity(GS) - Telegraph(GS) - Radio - Refrigeration - Plastics - Penicilin(GS) - Ecology - Globalization
I almost finished this game as you posted yours. )It turned out to be quite a good game and i won in 1560AD - 222 turns(needed 7 hammers to finish one turn earlier. )
First i did go tradition for the 33% wonder production as erajah suggested. It was kinda messy though as i lacked SP points so i ended up getting the bonus quite late. I still have a hard time figuring out if its optimal, but in any case it doesnt cost you more than 3 turns max, so its not a big loss(assuming you get about 350-400 SP points per turn during the endgame.
My order was:
Unlocking Tradition -> Unlocking Patronage -> Aesthetics -> Philanthropy -> Scholaticism -> Aristocracy -> Cultural diplomacy -> Unlocking the freedom tree -> Constitution.
If i took Aristocracy first it would result in me having to wait to get my maritime CS policies, and that just didnt seem worthwhile. Therefore i got it as late as i did.
Unlocking the tradition tree first was not optimal either, but i needed that extra food badly in my capital, to remain stagnent.
I managed to get 2 puppet cities(london and Istanbul in 33 or so turns(even got 2 extra workers also
)I beelined to Acoustics like last game
Pottery - Calendar - mining - writing - masonry - philosophy - Theology - Education(GL) - Acoustics(GS)
But this game i reached it in 62 turns!!(This must be quite close to what is even theoretically possible atm)
My goal for my capitol, was to get to size 4. Then put 2 people into the library(which i bought), while the others focused on wonders(my city was stagnant at this point)
When i had the CS SPs needed i allied with 2 maritime CS for a +10 food bonus in my capitol. From there on i spent my gold on allying cultured CSs.
Then i got horseback riding, and beelined to Astronomy
Animal husbandry - The wheel - Horseback riding - sailing - optics - compass - astronomy
I made sure i had 3-4 horsemen to find and invade the other continent(s) as soon as astronomy was up.(only one AI remained on my continent(america)
Basically i conquered the first city on the other continent around turn 110.
After this i finally went for Civil service.(mostly cause i didnt work many farmed river tiles.
I think i did make a mistake here as i probably should have taken trapping much earlier so i could start making trading posts in my puppet cities.(instead of farms)
Especially my gold income was a problem during this stage, to the point where i could'nt just buy all my buildings and focus on wonders only.(had to build monument, temple and one other myself)
Beelined to biology:
Trapping - Civil Service - Navigation - Archaeology - Scientific Theory(oxford uni) - Biology(GS)
Biology i got much earlier this game for the extra culture gain.
Then beelining to Printing press.
Cause i spent a extra GS early i had to invent Steam Power myself this time.
Electricity was invented using another GS and Telegraph using the GS from The Porcelain Tower.
Also this game i was much more aggressive and ended up with more puppets(19 in the end)
I even had to be careful not to take the last AI capital
)Its the first game where i have managed to basically conquer the whole world, with my small army.
After Christo was done i still had to wait some 15 turns to finish the remaining SPs.
To save some turns in the endgame i focused solely on growing my capital after christo was finished to get as many hammers as possible once i had to start the Utopia project.
Also as soon as i unlocked the last policy i annexed as many cities as i could without going below 0 happiness.(annexed the oldest ones)
These cities focused solely on research(building research also)
This way i could get to plastics and Ecology faster, and buy a hydro plant in my capital + a solar plant. That saved me 3 or 4 turns.
Electricity(GS) - Telegraph(GS) - Radio - Refrigeration - Plastics - Penicilin(GS) - Ecology - Globalization
Damn 1560! congrats.
I had another shot at this, this time with a marble start. My finish date was 1720, about 40 turns better than my last/first try, which I am happy with considering some of the obstacles I encountered this game :
- Closest AI was suleiman, 12 tiles away separated with forests and hills. It was a pain to find, and I could only conquer it by turn 35 or so. Second AI, Napoleon, was more than twice as far and by the time I found it and got to his capital the few troops I had were not enough. So I conquered his second city (turn 75) and left his capital for later.
- Because my 2 puppets were so damn far (12 and 30+ tiles away) making trade routes was not an option at all for a very long time. Also I made the mistake of beelining key techs very hard and skipping trade posts, which hurt my economy for a while.
- Lack of cultural CS! I had only 2 for a long long time, I kept finding tons maritime and military CSs only. The 4th cultural I found was in 1000 AD, which was the 14th CS I discovered on the 16 total on the map. Very unlucky with my scouting. (Had 2 scouts dedicated to finding CS the whole game too.)
- For a very long time I had only silk and gem as luxury. Everyone on the other continent had silk already except ghandi who was being bullied and out of money all the time. As for gem only 1 AI missed it, and it was my main gold source for a while. Because of lack of money I had to cut corners on what to build and which CS to control.
Lesson learned
- Aesthetics and Educated elite might not be such a wise investment after all. I got 4 great people from CS all game, 2 merchants, 1 engineer (that sped up utopia by 8 turns) and one general which I used for GA. I am considering trying Mandate of Heaven instead next game for some culture boost from happiness (synergy with cultural diplomacy and small empire).
- For prince, 3 puppets are really enough for research. I was limited by production and culture, my research was very efficient and by the end I had more than 300 beakers, which is more than you'll ever need. It might also be enough for gold, since the more cities you have the more maintenance junk they will build.
I had my capitol + 3 puppets (my 2 original + Paris which I took later on), for a total of 4 cities for 95% of the game. While waiting for Utopia to build I went and took a couple of France's cities.
Also this was the first time I have seen a CS take a city from an AI. Napoleon was trying to bully this city state for a while, and when I declared on Nappy at the very end keeping his troops busy north, the city state took a french city that was closest to it south... Funny moment seeing a CS with two cities and huge borders.
I had another shot at this, this time with a marble start. My finish date was 1720, about 40 turns better than my last/first try, which I am happy with considering some of the obstacles I encountered this game :
- Closest AI was suleiman, 12 tiles away separated with forests and hills. It was a pain to find, and I could only conquer it by turn 35 or so. Second AI, Napoleon, was more than twice as far and by the time I found it and got to his capital the few troops I had were not enough. So I conquered his second city (turn 75) and left his capital for later.
- Because my 2 puppets were so damn far (12 and 30+ tiles away) making trade routes was not an option at all for a very long time. Also I made the mistake of beelining key techs very hard and skipping trade posts, which hurt my economy for a while.
- Lack of cultural CS! I had only 2 for a long long time, I kept finding tons maritime and military CSs only. The 4th cultural I found was in 1000 AD, which was the 14th CS I discovered on the 16 total on the map. Very unlucky with my scouting. (Had 2 scouts dedicated to finding CS the whole game too.)
- For a very long time I had only silk and gem as luxury. Everyone on the other continent had silk already except ghandi who was being bullied and out of money all the time. As for gem only 1 AI missed it, and it was my main gold source for a while. Because of lack of money I had to cut corners on what to build and which CS to control.
Lesson learned
- Aesthetics and Educated elite might not be such a wise investment after all. I got 4 great people from CS all game, 2 merchants, 1 engineer (that sped up utopia by 8 turns) and one general which I used for GA. I am considering trying Mandate of Heaven instead next game for some culture boost from happiness (synergy with cultural diplomacy and small empire).
- For prince, 3 puppets are really enough for research. I was limited by production and culture, my research was very efficient and by the end I had more than 300 beakers, which is more than you'll ever need. It might also be enough for gold, since the more cities you have the more maintenance junk they will build.
I had my capitol + 3 puppets (my 2 original + Paris which I took later on), for a total of 4 cities for 95% of the game. While waiting for Utopia to build I went and took a couple of France's cities.
Also this was the first time I have seen a CS take a city from an AI. Napoleon was trying to bully this city state for a while, and when I declared on Nappy at the very end keeping his troops busy north, the city state took a french city that was closest to it south... Funny moment seeing a CS with two cities and huge borders.
Awesome tip, didn't know that was even possible. Happend to me twice on the first game, having to chose a free tech with the current being researched like 1 or 2 turns away. Gonna go for a second try at this HoF even though I think cultural victories are a little boring.
Krystalshield
Chieftain
Okay, so after seeing turn 222, I'm tempted not to post. But I figure this being my first HoF entry...
Spoiler AAR :
Spoiler City-State stomping a Civ :
Spoiler Overall opinion :
Just posting to get in here. Won in 1954 after mounds of bad management. Used three cities, but two would have been better. Guess I just see territory and I want it.
Got bugged midgame so had to go back to fix it, but no matter, this isn't a competitive submission.
Got bugged midgame so had to go back to fix it, but no matter, this isn't a competitive submission.
Alraun
Warlord
- Joined
- May 27, 2006
- Messages
- 222
iggymnrr
Deity
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 2,298
Wow. 1560, congrats. I just finished another game around turn 270 without using the Christo or patronage. (Tradition, Piety, Order, Freedom, Commerce) I did not plan this but my puppets all built to museums, no science. Skipping Christo was faster with hydro power. My starting policies 2 in tradition, 2 on left side of freedom, 2 on right side of freedom. Had no trouble getting maritime 2 CSs, one early and one on an exclusive CS continent -- 5 virgin CSs awaiting discovery.
After a few practice runs, I decided to give this thing a real try. Finished in 1938 AD. I know I can do a lot better than this with a better map.
I found myself on a large island with 1 city state and no other civs. The city state was militaristic, and seeing as there were no other civs, i took it over as a puppet state. Now, luckily my capital was founded on the coast, so I was able to build a ship to explore a bit, and found that the shallow waters managed to connect with another landmass with a couple civs and a lot more citystates.
Utlimately, though i wasn't able to do much with that larger landmass other than a little trade and allying with a culture city state. One of the other civs was montezuma, who went to war with me and wouldn't let up. Then, desperate for some trade, I made peace with him for what I thought was a reasonable offer, but missed the part where i was to give him my puppet state (oops). At that point I had lost most of my momentum, and did my best to get through the rest of the techs, build cristo redentor, and build the utopia project.
With a better starting location and less rookie mistakes, I'm sure I'll be able to cut my time considerably.
I found myself on a large island with 1 city state and no other civs. The city state was militaristic, and seeing as there were no other civs, i took it over as a puppet state. Now, luckily my capital was founded on the coast, so I was able to build a ship to explore a bit, and found that the shallow waters managed to connect with another landmass with a couple civs and a lot more citystates.
Utlimately, though i wasn't able to do much with that larger landmass other than a little trade and allying with a culture city state. One of the other civs was montezuma, who went to war with me and wouldn't let up. Then, desperate for some trade, I made peace with him for what I thought was a reasonable offer, but missed the part where i was to give him my puppet state (oops). At that point I had lost most of my momentum, and did my best to get through the rest of the techs, build cristo redentor, and build the utopia project.
With a better starting location and less rookie mistakes, I'm sure I'll be able to cut my time considerably.
Here's a screenshot from my current game:
Spoiler :
Just had to throw that out there =)
(Not sure how this one will turn out, the civs are all spread out, taking forever to conquer).
iggymnrr
Deity
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 2,298
@pagh80
Just looked at your game and it is impressive. Well done! I also checked the numbers from my last game and, believe it or not, my puppets were producing more culture than your whole empire, CSs notwithstanding. No beakers from them. Felt like beakers from CSs would have doubled my tech rate.
Just looked at your game and it is impressive. Well done! I also checked the numbers from my last game and, believe it or not, my puppets were producing more culture than your whole empire, CSs notwithstanding. No beakers from them. Felt like beakers from CSs would have doubled my tech rate.
Hehe nice.Here's a screenshot from my current game:
Spoiler :
Just had to throw that out there =)
Im curious though. Did you get masonry also? Did you gety a tech from a ruin?
But in any case, its really fast.
It was the same in my game. The CS accounted for most of the culture for a long time.
If you want to finish early having atleast 5 cultured CSs seems like a must, so its quite luckbased. I can only imagine how a game with 8 cultured CSs would turn out.
iggymnrr
Deity
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 2,298
^
Yeh there's luck. But I had the same number of cultural CSs as you so that's even. One thing about trading with the other continent was that they seemed in GAs alot. Great way to get cash. It doesn't buy beakers.
Edit: What do you estimate the happiness of gifted CS lux to be worth? That can be coverted indirectly into beakers. It would also cause me to rethink the whole partonage tree in this kind of game.
Yeh there's luck. But I had the same number of cultural CSs as you so that's even. One thing about trading with the other continent was that they seemed in GAs alot. Great way to get cash. It doesn't buy beakers.
Edit: What do you estimate the happiness of gifted CS lux to be worth? That can be coverted indirectly into beakers. It would also cause me to rethink the whole partonage tree in this kind of game.
I managed to get 2 puppet cities(london and Istanbul in 33 or so turns(even got 2 extra workers also
How did you manage to take out two cities so fast? I thought it was harder than that to take a city, but apparently I'm wrong. How many units had you to do that?
2 warriors+1 archer. In the beginning a warrior can attack a city 2 times if at full health, so you can take a city in 2 turns.
I've managed to break 1600 finally, and with a lucky GS at the end, I managed to finish one turn before pagh80, in 1555AD. I wasn't going to make it until a GS popped in Paris that let be bulb into Globalization and build the Sydney Opera House.
So my starting spot looked ok at first; no wheat or camp, but it had marble and 2 gems, but not a very big river, and it was on the coast. But then I noticed two tiny rivers to either side that actually ended up making a lot of my land riverside. So I stuck with it.
I send my warrior south and hit a dead end, so I have to backtrack. Literally turn 5, Napoleon shows up with a warrior coming from the north, which is all mountains and hills. I hadn't even though there was a path that way, but that means Paris must be reeeeally close. Scout heads east, hits a ruins for an upgrade (I only got 3 ruins this game, but they were all good. Writing, Scout Upgrade, and Culture).
At this point my warrior had been forced to double back and was heading north to find Paris, so I had the archer meet up with him and they managed to take out Paris by turn 18. Right after I defeat Napoleon, Sulemain wanders in from the east, and Elizabeth comes in from the right. I send the warrior off to find Elizabeth and the scout to find the Ottomans. Three civs on a continent with me, and one now gone, shouldn't be too... whoops! Look at that Immortal who just showed up. Sigh, damn Persians and their super-spearmen. So, FOUR other civs on my continent. Thank goodness I took out Boney when I did.
Turns out the landmass was a U shape, with me at the bottom of the U, England at one end and Persia at the other, with Ottomans just south of Persia. Took forEVER to conquer everyone, mainly because the Persians spammed out FIVE cities by the time I got there, AND because to get from Persia to England took the better part of 12 turns.
Hit my first golden age around 115-120, right after finishing Chichen Itza. I ended micromanaging this game a lot more than I usually do. I would calculate the science points out and decide the optimal number of specialists to get it one turn faster (since excess science doesn't carry over).
I think I finally finished off Elizabeth on turn 128 or so. Darius and Elizabeth both were kind enough to build me a Wonder before they died, so their cities were even better culture producers. Darius left me the Pyramids, and my workers were very thankful.
The key to Culture victory is to manage your golden ages (this helped my game immensely, I hadn't even thought to sell off luxuries to get your GA when you wanted), and get to Renaissance and then Industrial Age ASAP. As pagh80 showed, you can GL slingshot into Acoustics by the 60s without too much trouble.
Tech was Pottery-Calender-Writing(AR)-Mining-Masonry-Philosophy and then I decided to try pagh80's idea of saving GL till education instead of theo or civil service. Finished Theology on the same turn that GS popped (59) and grabbed Acoustics. I had been sitting on 2 barb camps that had two CS quests apiece on them, waiting for theo to be done. On 59, I got Acoustics, got Patronage and Aestheticism, and captured the camps for 4 immediate ally CS (2 Maritime, 1 Culture and Military). I gotta say, while they're nigh worthless later on, Military Civs are great for early game.
I also grabbed Civil Service a lot earlier than pagh80, because I had so many riverside hills.
Tired, I might write more tomorrow, here's the save files (had to rar the win, was 6meg, WTH).
So my starting spot looked ok at first; no wheat or camp, but it had marble and 2 gems, but not a very big river, and it was on the coast. But then I noticed two tiny rivers to either side that actually ended up making a lot of my land riverside. So I stuck with it.
I send my warrior south and hit a dead end, so I have to backtrack. Literally turn 5, Napoleon shows up with a warrior coming from the north, which is all mountains and hills. I hadn't even though there was a path that way, but that means Paris must be reeeeally close. Scout heads east, hits a ruins for an upgrade (I only got 3 ruins this game, but they were all good. Writing, Scout Upgrade, and Culture).
At this point my warrior had been forced to double back and was heading north to find Paris, so I had the archer meet up with him and they managed to take out Paris by turn 18. Right after I defeat Napoleon, Sulemain wanders in from the east, and Elizabeth comes in from the right. I send the warrior off to find Elizabeth and the scout to find the Ottomans. Three civs on a continent with me, and one now gone, shouldn't be too... whoops! Look at that Immortal who just showed up. Sigh, damn Persians and their super-spearmen. So, FOUR other civs on my continent. Thank goodness I took out Boney when I did.
Turns out the landmass was a U shape, with me at the bottom of the U, England at one end and Persia at the other, with Ottomans just south of Persia. Took forEVER to conquer everyone, mainly because the Persians spammed out FIVE cities by the time I got there, AND because to get from Persia to England took the better part of 12 turns.
Hit my first golden age around 115-120, right after finishing Chichen Itza. I ended micromanaging this game a lot more than I usually do. I would calculate the science points out and decide the optimal number of specialists to get it one turn faster (since excess science doesn't carry over).
I think I finally finished off Elizabeth on turn 128 or so. Darius and Elizabeth both were kind enough to build me a Wonder before they died, so their cities were even better culture producers. Darius left me the Pyramids, and my workers were very thankful.
The key to Culture victory is to manage your golden ages (this helped my game immensely, I hadn't even thought to sell off luxuries to get your GA when you wanted), and get to Renaissance and then Industrial Age ASAP. As pagh80 showed, you can GL slingshot into Acoustics by the 60s without too much trouble.
Tech was Pottery-Calender-Writing(AR)-Mining-Masonry-Philosophy and then I decided to try pagh80's idea of saving GL till education instead of theo or civil service. Finished Theology on the same turn that GS popped (59) and grabbed Acoustics. I had been sitting on 2 barb camps that had two CS quests apiece on them, waiting for theo to be done. On 59, I got Acoustics, got Patronage and Aestheticism, and captured the camps for 4 immediate ally CS (2 Maritime, 1 Culture and Military). I gotta say, while they're nigh worthless later on, Military Civs are great for early game.
I also grabbed Civil Service a lot earlier than pagh80, because I had so many riverside hills.
Tired, I might write more tomorrow, here's the save files (had to rar the win, was 6meg, WTH).
