Civ V - Beta 2

@pagh80 -- Very Impressive Game!

Not to disparage your amazing feat, but quite frankly this is just another example that shows the ridiculousness of ICS. I'm wondering what changes are going to made to balance this sort of thing.

To the HOF guys -- would it be possible to also record the turn# that a player won in? I think that might be more useful than year
 
Damn Pagh! I micomanaged so hard to get under 1560 and get the 1st spot and right when I'm about to post it I saw your result. :crazyeye: Well done to you and the rest participants.

Anyways, t327 - 1535AD is what I did..

Pretty happy about it cause it was the first (and last) epic speed game I've ever tried in any civ and my first (and last) science victory in civ V.

I did really good at micromanaging cities down to the last beaker to squeeze the max out of them, but I also feel like I made some wrong key decisions, such as policies and when to expand.

No chessy deals with the AIs goes without saying.

What drove me nuts is how much this game is bugged. Just because I was literally reviewing every city every turn moving around citizens, I realised that the production info in the city screen is way off and shows incorrect amount of turns needed to complete the current unit/building in comparison to what I calculated dividing the building cost with the amount of hammers I produced... I also had my railroads bug and not apply the bonus costing me lots of turns in every building in every city for the whole game. Considering how early I invented Railroad that was an absolutely huge loss. That and the generally bad map I spawned (the only river in my capital covered a stunning one hex, also no desert) resulted in my capital hardly having 100 production per turn in the end (which was the highest of all my cities)

I'll talk briefly about number of cities etc since that seems to be the focus. I tried to go my own style and not follow any norms such as REX or ICS. I just settled 1-2 cities early on and then went to war. Napoleon was very close but unfortunately I wasn't lucky with an archer upgrade and had to wait for horses. I made a few puppets. After I got the policies I thought I needed -boy that SP that gives science from marketplace was a really bad choice- I had about 10 settlers in place to make new cities, most of the in ok spots, not ICS style. I left the puppets alone for a while and every time one of them was making something like barracks I annexed them one by one. I finished with 20 cities and didn't have any happiness problems even though I didnt go liberty at all and lacked 1-2 resources the whole game (Augustus Caesar wasnt willing to give me 1 of his 4 dyes unless I gave him all my luxuries and my firstborn child). I also decided to leave 3 AIs unharmed to make deals with them.

Last but not least I'll give you one nice tip for Archipelago maps with a large number of coastal cities. If you have built all the buildings you feel you need you can start pumping work boats from every city. Then delete them. It should take 1 or 2 turns to produce them (they are faster than workers). They delete for 15 gold each and you can imagine to how much gold this translates if you do this in all your cities! It goes without saying that it beats the ridiculous 2-3 gpt that wealth production gives you even in big cities. I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere so far but I myself thought about it pretty late in the game and found it really really great :cool: !

So here are the saves ! I don't know if my final save has any educational purpose as I have deleted almost everything for cash and all the cities are heavily micromanaged to the point they might make no sense. But if you need any more details on the game feel free to ask !
 

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My first try (just to learn about the victory type) ended in 1951. A far cry from some of the results on here. I will probably give it a 2nd shot. However, I am really disappointed with the AI on the water maps right now. It is bad in general but on the water maps it is worse than normal.
 
Last but not least I'll give you one nice tip for Archipelago maps with a large number of coastal cities. If you have built all the buildings you feel you need you can start pumping work boats from every city. Then delete them. It should take 1 or 2 turns to produce them (they are faster than workers). They delete for 15 gold each and you can imagine to how much gold this translates if you do this in all your cities! It goes without saying that it beats the ridiculous 2-3 gpt that wealth production gives you even in big cities.
Wow thats a really nice tip. It almost makes me want to try another game to test it out.

nice one, pagh80! Was a perfect game by the way?
No, not really. I made many mistakes so id say its very possible to get below 300 turns.
 
Last but not least I'll give you one nice tip for Archipelago maps with a large number of coastal cities. If you have built all the buildings you feel you need you can start pumping work boats from every city. Then delete them. It should take 1 or 2 turns to produce them (they are faster than workers). They delete for 15 gold each and you can imagine to how much gold this translates if you do this in all your cities! It goes without saying that it beats the ridiculous 2-3 gpt that wealth production gives you even in big cities. I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere so far but I myself thought about it pretty late in the game and found it really really great :cool: !

Sounds like this may have been changed by the latest patch:

* Balance - Disbanding units now provides only 10% of their production cost in gold.

Although 10% still sounds like more than 15 gold so maybe this is still OK... we'll have to see.
 
I have this really unusual start going. At turn 115 I have yet to contact an AI, no marble or forests, no hut luck (maybe gold?), couldn't rush a library, and yet I have 3 cities, 3 wonders, ~ 5 policies and slingshotted accoustics. The only CS nearby was maritime and luckily it wanted a barb camp destroyed which I had been sitting on for a long time, injured warrior defending. I had settled on top of cows. It won't be a pure ICS but 2 future cities may well go on top of cows too. Didn't think this was possible but no fooey puppets is nice. Oh, I do have horse. Yeah!

Tech path has been, AH (sheep) -> calender, mining -> theology, etc. Scientist was spawned in New York.
 
1716 AD for my last attempt at this. Haven't quite got the knack for ICS yet but did end up with 884 gold per turn at the end. Took a wrong turn somewhere. Discouraging since I had 34 cities and still could not beat my time with as England with only 8 cities. Will post if I can get the upload to work.

Incidentally the patch has raised the cost of the national college heftily.

Edit got the upload to work. The National College changes in cost during the game. Near the end of my game it cost this much:
Spoiler :

This was my start:
Spoiler :

I moved off the hill next to gems and settled on cows for the following reasons:
  1. 3-food city center and +3 food from fish is a huge growth start
  2. It's a choice between a windmill or hydro plant later, no contest
  3. Two-way port access
  4. The sheep tile is the only early food/hammer tile around and will have to be bought plus it's cheaper when it's closer and makes a modicum of use from the UA; culture expands to the gems fast enough
There is enough time to go after wonders and AH + mining but only one can be researched before pottery/calender. The other comes after calender. With no forests to chop and sheep on hand, AH is obvious. Even without sheep it is better as it is the only tech that can gain upon completion, a horse tile (food/hammer) can be worked before improved. Here it gained horse for Washington. Opening build order was scout/warrior and discovered I was isolated so continued with worker/settler (or settler/worker) instead of another warrior. I had planned on scout/warrior/warrior to go after an AI or suitable CS, leaving Washington defenseless as a scout and 3 warriors fair well on offense. A scout is cheaper and if defense is needed it is faster to get back and sufficient for this purpose.

SPs used: 3 in liberty, unlock freedom and 2 in rationalism. Three cities were founded and it is possible to get these 6 policies, oracle providing one. In practice 5 can be had early and the 6th will come on the fly fast enough. Be that as it may, once 2 in liberty have been gotten there is not a big hurry to get the last 4. I filled out the 6 policies ~turn 135. It is obvious from this start that only a second city can spawn a scientist quickly enough for the acoustics slingshot. No libraries were cash rushed. Testing, however, has shown that in some situations a library may have to be cash rushed or have the 2nd city build the oracle. It depends.

Also noticed during game:
  1. Puppets don't build as much crap
  2. At some point near the end the entire map got revealed
 

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I must say I had a fun time with this gauntlet. My first try wasn't going so well, so I abandoned it and started this game, which worked out pretty well. I wanted to play through without reading any of the posts in this thread for my first submission. However, I had been reading the ICS strategies from Pi-r8, Alpaca, and Sulla, so I decided to try it out.

As it turns out, an archipelago map is a pretty good place to use this strategy since there are a lot of tiny islands. Plus, there is really no challenge from the AI for expanding since they don't seem to like boats. :lol:

My starting position was ok, and there were a lot of hills for some production later in the game. I would have liked a few more river tiles though. Up until about turn 200, I was playing pretty normally (if you can call a peaceful game normal).

I got a few of the naval techs pretty early so I could start exploring with my embarked scout once my small starting island was mapped out. I needed to find some CS to ally and give me lots of food and culture.

I didn't want to expand too fast so I could pick up some key social policies for the ICS strategy. My first focus was Meritocracy for the trade route happiness (I foresaw a lot of harbors in my future). My ICS strategy was going to rely pretty heavily on specialists, so next I went for Freedom for the reduced unhappiness from specialists. By the end of the game I had roughly an average of 5 specialists per city, so this policy alone reduced my unhappiness from citizens by about 200. :eek: Then I went for Secularism to make my specialists more powerful and Free Thought since I planned on having trading posts everywhere. The last policy I was able to take before my expansion vastly outran my culture was Order for the bonus :c5production: for buildings. I was hoping to make it at least to Planned Economy for the reduced :c5unhappy: and if possible Communism for the extra :c5production: per city. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I did manage to get one more policy towards the end of the game for about 15000 culture after building the Cristo Redentor :lol:

I started the massive expansion tactics around turn 200. At this point I had five cities producing 68 :c5science:. Every city started by building Monument, Library, Market and Colosseum. Once the Colosseum was finished, that city would produce settlers, workers, or work boats, with the exception of a few specialized cities that had good sites.

Most of the game was peaceful. Nobody declared war on me. I took out Egypt, Arabia, and Germany after I was able to build infantry. They were still using pikes and crossbows, and they were close to my starting island. I used 2 destroyers to bombard and 2 infantry (which I later upgraded to mech inf). The mech inf didn't even need bombardment support.

I ended up with 5 major production cities: my capital, Egypt's capital, Arabia's capital and two tiny island cities with lots of fish resources. Miami was literally a one tile island that had six fish nearby, and it was producing 92.8 :c5production: per turn building the spaceship. My best production city, aptly named Portland, had six fish, an offshore oil, and a gold hill. The rest were specialists. Portland was producing 119.25 :c5production: for the spaceship. The Seaport is terrific for a city like this. Once I built the Statue of Liberty, my millions of specialists contributed :c5production:. With Statue of Liberty and the Secularism policy, even unemployed citizens were better than most land tiles.

By the end of the game, I had 72 cities housing 413 citizens. Most cities didn't make it past size 6 or 7. All relied on my three maritime CS for their food, except for my monster fishing cities, and they focused on :c5science: and :c5gold:. I was producing 2208 bpt and 293gpt. The gpt was usually much higher since I spent a large portion of the end game in golden ages.

The ICS worked out very well once the cities started finishing their buildings. I learned a lot about this strategy, and once I fine tuned how to use all the specialists my numbers really started to skyrocket. From turn 370 to 400 my bpt went from 852 to 1526 :eek:

I finished Rocketry at turn 355, and it took until turn 391 to build the Apollo Program. :mad:. But with my massive science increase, I was done researching the last spaceship tech by turn 399, only a few turns after I finished the AP. All my production cities just worked on spaceship parts until the last one was finished on turn 421, and it got to my capital on turn 426. Victory was mine :goodjob:

I can't wait to try this strategy again and apply all the things I learned on this go. I'll admit it was very tedious for the last hundred turns. I basically had to go through every city about every 10 turns and take all the citizens off tiles and use them as unemployed. This gave me a nice boost in production for the starting four buildings, and it also gave me a nice boost in science.

I included some progress saves for a reference if anyone wants to see how the ICS starts to grow later in the game.
 

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I just posted my first GB2 win. But since the purpose of these beta gauntlets is to find bugs, broken features, unbalanced strategies, etc., I figured I would post something I noticed late in the game when I was trying to time my spaceship builds.

The Economic Overview window did not display the :c5production: correctly. This is data from when my top five cities were all producing spaceship parts, including the bonuses I had in each city.

Sorry for the terrible formatting, but I didn't know how to do a table or anything. The numbers are Base, Actual, and Economy Screen, followed by the bonuses for each city.

Spoiler :

Washington
39
78
58
50% Spaceship, 50% Factory​

Portland
45
119.25
74
50% Spaceship, 50% Railroad, 50% Factory, 15% Windmill​

Miami
32
92.8
60
50% Spaceship, 50% Railroad, 50% Factory, 15% Windmill, 25% Solar Plant​

Thebes
26
71.5
45
50% Spaceship, 50% Railroad, 50% Factory​

Mecca
28
74.2
46
50% Spaceship, 50% Railroad, 50% Factory, 15% Windmill, 25% Solar Plant​


It appears as though the Econ window is not including the Railroad bonus or the Spaceship Factory bonus.

On a side note, it it intended that the capital does not receive the railroad bonus? It seems like it should get a bonus if it's providing bonuses to all cities connected to it.
 
On a side note, it it intended that the capital does not receive the railroad bonus? It seems like it should get a bonus if it's providing bonuses to all cities connected to it.

You do get the bonus only the eta is wrong. While the building is in construction it will skip a few turns.
 
You do get the bonus only the eta is wrong. While the building is in construction it will skip a few turns.

I wasn't looking at the ETA numbers. I was looking at the actual production of the city, versus the base production of the city, versus the hammers per turn numbers shown in the economic overview screen.

These numbers suggested that the railroad bonus didn't apply to the capital city. Also, when I did the mouseover on the production in the city screen, the railroad bonus wasn't listed.
 
A few things noticed since the patch:

Early puppets will stall growth at pop 2 in pursuit of gold focus. Makes early war less desirable unless a worker is on hand for them. They also don't appear to run too many specialists. All national wonders, from what I've checked, scale to ridiculous costs. On a positive note, the AI has gotten a little help by demanding more in trade. Personally I like this, less cheese. But my biggest gripe is barb galleys. I've seen capitols starve down to pop 2 immediately after growing to pop 3 because of some unseen galley spawned by a barb encampment on a 1-tile island. I've also seen cities with all sea tiles blockaded from all sides by unseen galleys. Barb land units don't get this kind of power. As to the map script, it is entirely possible to have a capitol starve to pop 1 from early barbs after growing to pop 2. I've seen it nearly happen but saved by just a single food. Off hand it looks like the spawn rate of barb galleys is greater than the production rate of the AI at any point in the game.
 
I wasn't looking at the ETA numbers. I was looking at the actual production of the city, versus the base production of the city, versus the hammers per turn numbers shown in the economic overview screen.

These numbers suggested that the railroad bonus didn't apply to the capital city. Also, when I did the mouseover on the production in the city screen, the railroad bonus wasn't listed.

Indeed the Capital doesn't get the railroad bonus.
 
All AI retain their capitols. No city spam nor puppet abuse. Only 2 CS taken over. Only defensive wars fought (which net me 4 mediocre to poor puppets later annexed).

Score 1193.

Way ahead in science (only one AI makes it to Modern Age). #1 in production, by factor of two. #2 in GNP. Way down the list in everything else.

Stopped using scientists for tech and used instead for golden ages once I realized that I was production limited (OK, last space tech was bulbed... but thats it after the industrial age).

Not saying this is how to do it... but I avoided exploits. Felt that victory was inevitable after about half way through. Withoput the gaunlet, I probably would not have been motivated to grind it out.

This is only my second complete game, btw.

Fun, and I think I'm actually learning. Note, the update came halfway through this game, but did not affect me except that I faced bigger navies. Which is good. Kept getting taunted for having the smallest military... but it was still no match for any of the attackers (Ramses early, Elizabeth? mid-game, and Rome late).

View attachment 270169

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You guys are ridiculous with your 1400's and 1500's victories. :goodjob:

For much of the game, CS abuse wasn't really an option, because it took forever to meet one of just three Maritime City-States.

Over the course of the game, I destroyed pretty much every other nation and puppeted everything in sight. It wasn't until the Industrial Era I annexed any of the cities I had taken.

EDIT: This game was played entirely with patch 1.0.0.62.


There's something seriously broken with the balance on this game. My last 100 turns or so was just one long Golden Age. In the end, I had so much of everything I hardly knew what to do with it and really just didn't feel like messing with it:



P.S. - How do you view the "Sessions" log in ciV? (I had to reload from the same save a couple times cuz my computer screwed up; I wanted to make note of those events, but I can't find a log and didn't think to write it down.)
 
since patch ai suddenly dont accept tech trades anymore - ot they want at least gold when its should be same deal for both. dumb imo

even more incentivtive to trade them these lux to declare war after ...
 
If i win the game on some other way than space race, can i still win the game with a space race victory then i clicked on Just one more turn..?
 
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