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Civ V is more complex than Civ IV

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Flavorable, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. mrt144

    mrt144 Deity

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    This is basically a paraphrase of what I said: Civics allow dynamically changing strategy, Social Policies form and lock you into long term strategies.
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Please back that statement up with facts. :p

    There are indeed numbers behind it. You simply don't have access to them (now, whether THAT is a good design decision or not is a different question!). Both 'Pacts' modify diplomacy over time.

    Please note: I am not saying that diplomacy in Civ5 is robust. It needs a lot of work. But it's not quite as binary as you say.

    I greatly agree with this. I enjoy Social Policies. :lol:

    In fact, my first mod will make extensive use of them (~8 entirely new policy trees), though not quite for their original intention. :p

    One important thing I feel I should note... There is no reason you can't have both in the same system, you know. None whatsoever.

    Different policy trees can oppose each other (and this is in game); Adopting one deactivates the other. Adopt the blocked one, and you enter anarchy for a period of time, before coming up with the new policy tree active and the old one inactive; Same as civics. Better, you can switch back for free, without using culture; Culture buys the tree, but once you have it remains unlocked. Again, like civics.

    On top of this, different branches within a tree can apparently block other branches (or hell, even branches in other trees, maybe!), though this is not shown in game; Tag is PolicyDisables. I'm not sure if this one can be switched, but I'd assume so.

    Given this, it's not inconceivable that you could use each Policy Tree as a Civic Category, with each individual branch blocking others in the tree and representing civics. You have a higher opportunity cost for unlocking any specific civic, but there's no reason a mod could not also decrease the culture needed.

    My own mod will feature 8 new Trees, which all block each other (no, won't say why) and are not gained in the normal way; Eventually, once we get DLL access, I'll be completely splitting them from Culture into their own value.

    What? You count espionage as one of the best features? :crazyeye:

    I personally count it as one of the worst, and most poorly designed. Had a long design doc written up for a (heavily) modified system for RifE, but we never used it (or standard espionage); My basic issue with the system was that you both defend and attack with the same value. Meaning using your espionage actually hurts you! Bah.

    As I said, it is easily conceivable to make a mod reversing most of what social policies are. Or any combination between SPs and Civics. :goodjob:

    I believe I qualify for the first there, even if it is 'just' a modmod it is larger than many mods. :p

    I also share the majority of his opinions. I won't post full arguments, nor do I have time to; All I'll say is that while Civ5 does have some obvious issues, so did Civ4. And Civ5 has a far better base to build off of, IMO at least.

    Granted, I am far more concerned with the modding tools than the game itself, it is still the first Civ game I have enjoyed in an unmodded state.
     
  3. Ralgar

    Ralgar Warlord

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    This is my hope.

    Do you have an idea how SP are integrated in the AI? I guess you also have to mod the decision making if you add to it?
     
  4. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I'm not quite sure. We don't have access to the DLL yet, nor will we for a while.

    If it is anything like the Civ4 AI (should be, at least in this): Each SP has various flavors (Military, Economy, etc). AI's have a chance to pursue items of a specific flavor, given both it's weighting and their own weighting in that flavor (A heavy military civ will go for military flavored SPs, and is more likely to go for those with higher values for the flavor).

    Other than that, not sure. :crazyeye:

    Mine... AI won't quite follow, but it doesn't particularly have to, as it will still make use of it just fine. :lol:
     
  5. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

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    This

    I mostly play on Monarch for exactly the same reason. Because it offers me some strategic flexibility and I can actually have fun with the game rather than just hacking my way through it like the powergamers. Trying to RP your Civ of choice as you play, or only shooting for a certain type of victory makes Monarch more than difficult enough to keep you interested.

    For the record, I've beaten plenty of games on Immortal, that kind of play just doesn't suit me however. Isn't choice great? :goodjob:
     
  6. Maxor127

    Maxor127 Warlord

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    Civ5 isn't more complex. It's just muddled under a bad interface. I honestly would've rather had Civ4 with the Civ5 combat system and hex tiles. And I do like how roads aren't encouraged to be built everything and that it focuses on smaller empires. Almost everything else is a mess though. Especially multiplayer.
     
  7. Flavorable

    Flavorable Warlord

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    Well, things like multiplayer are sure to get sorted out with patches.

    But I disagree with the interface, It frees up alot of room on the screen and the icons really look gorgeous. You didn't really explain how you thought it was simpler, I'd like specifics please.
     
  8. RD-BH

    RD-BH Human

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    @Valkrionn

    re: Using espionage hurts you

    You defend with total espionage generated to date (regardless how much you spend).
    You offend by using points generated toward specific target (a limited supply).

    FYI
     
  9. mrt144

    mrt144 Deity

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    Doesn't hurt you if you win the game (ala spaceship sabatoge)
     
  10. ShaqFu

    ShaqFu Requires Nanotechnology

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    From this point forward, I'm ignoring any points anyone raises unless that person has beaten CivIV, Deity, on Always War, never building Workers, disbanding their starting Settler, with their monitor off, with one hand tied behind their back.
     
  11. Flavorable

    Flavorable Warlord

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    Oh!

    I do that all the time!

    But really, it doesn't give enough indication of the game mechanics. Really, you need to disable every victory type but diplomacy with total war enabled if you think you understand how the game works.
     
  12. RD-BH

    RD-BH Human

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    Do I have to show my work?
     
  13. TLF

    TLF Prince

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    "There is a pre-set plan for Social Policies too. If, at the beginning of the game, you are leaning towards a domination victory, you'll pick a militaristic leader and hit up the Order, Autocracy, etc. tracks. The problem is that, once you pick them, you are locked in. If you suddenly decide that you want to swerve and go for a space victory, you are SOL. There is no ability to adapt to the changing dynamics of the game. Perhaps that is more "realistic" "

    There is nothing realistic about this.
    All nations adapt to circumstances. Even Kings and dictators get deposed when they are massive failures. I fail to see what is strategic about getting locked into a policy for all time. All leaders change policies when needed unless they are idiots, fools or arrogant to an extreme degree.
     
  14. ShaqFu

    ShaqFu Requires Nanotechnology

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    Sure, but I'll only accept it if it's in the native tongue of your leader of choice. And only if said leader is Gilgamesh.
     
  15. mrt144

    mrt144 Deity

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    Even barring the realism factor (which every Civ does) the entire thing that Civ IV did right was ingrained in developing strategies to fit circumstance, from playing the land, to civic decisions, to unit counters, etc etc. The SP thing really reminds me of Torchlight's skill trees in some ways, which might be what they were aiming for but seems too binding in a TBS game.

    I've stated several times now that i view SP as being more like cultural values than dynamic policy.
     
  16. RD-BH

    RD-BH Human

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    I can manage everything except
    ... 'monitor off'
    ... Gilgamesh as leader (yecch!)

    Darn ... missed it by that much!
     
  17. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Wrong. Not having any info about something doesn't make it more complex and strategical. It's the oposite, it makes it random.

    Taking decissions having info = strategy
    Taking decissions without any info = randomness
     
  18. CrimsonEdge

    CrimsonEdge Warlord

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    You have info. Talk to a leader that you've traded with (say, Elizabeth) and she'll say "It's great to see a friend" or something to that effect.

    Now, do something to anger her. Culture bomb her, deny her assistance when a pact of secrecy comes up, attack a city-state she is allies with.

    She will now say "Oh, we were just talking about you. We can guarantee it was not pleasant" or something to that effect.

    Just because you have direct numbers does not mean there isn't feedback.
     
  19. Flavorable

    Flavorable Warlord

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    What I ment by that wasn't that I enjoy a lack of information, but that things such as the balance between an economy, science and food are no longer Dependant on a simple slider, but rather, more realistically, rely on longterm planning and civilization balancing.

    I ment that things that in Civ IV that were simple and mindless, such as the tech slider, are now an integral part of nationwide planning, and that adds to depth.
     
  20. ShaqFu

    ShaqFu Requires Nanotechnology

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    I had Oda come up to me, tell me that my civ was so pathetic that even barbarians disparage it, and leave. Needless to say, that was far more telling than any number of +/-s would have been.
     

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