I agree, complexity has nothing to do with the numbers, both games are full of numbers, whether you can see them or not, they're there. I never said more numbers mean more complex, in fact I only mention numbers in an example that compares game mechanics in both game that happen to both use numbers. Yes, you can switch in and out of civics but like I said you have to weigh the benefits to the cost and it does cost you something every single time. SP's are a one time thing, it's a buff. Yes, you have to make a choice on how you are going to play this particular game but once it's made that's it. Where's the versatility in that? Yes, religion is as you say but again you have to choice who you want that +2 with and weigh the consequences of losing the +2 with the other guy. A choice as simple as that could mean war in some situations which is huge. Once again, I'll agree that more choices doesn't necessarily mean more complex. But more choices that effect actually game play absolutely means more complex. The numbers have nothing to do with it.