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Civ V is more complex than Civ IV

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Flavorable, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. teeman11

    teeman11 Chieftain

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    I agree, complexity has nothing to do with the numbers, both games are full of numbers, whether you can see them or not, they're there. I never said more numbers mean more complex, in fact I only mention numbers in an example that compares game mechanics in both game that happen to both use numbers.

    Yes, you can switch in and out of civics but like I said you have to weigh the benefits to the cost and it does cost you something every single time. SP's are a one time thing, it's a buff. Yes, you have to make a choice on how you are going to play this particular game but once it's made that's it. Where's the versatility in that?

    Yes, religion is as you say but again you have to choice who you want that +2 with and weigh the consequences of losing the +2 with the other guy. A choice as simple as that could mean war in some situations which is huge.

    Once again, I'll agree that more choices doesn't necessarily mean more complex. But more choices that effect actually game play absolutely means more complex. The numbers have nothing to do with it.
     
  2. Dizzy75

    Dizzy75 Warlord

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    Have you ever played an RPG? Or Diablo?

    Of course it's a buff, and you're stuck with it - that's why it's a MUCH BIGGER tradeoff than Civ IV civics. There's no going back.

    And versatility? There are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of potential SP paths to go down, like any "talent tree" in an RPG. Not all of them are reasonable, probably, and not all are going to be optimal for the particular game you're playing. There are strategic decisions to be made in every game about how to approach the SPs, unlike civics, where you know what combination to use at every stage of every game. We might actually have to think about them each game, instead of using our standard civic combos in each phase. How is that LESS versatile?
     
  3. gorillagogo

    gorillagogo Chieftain

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    C'mon, at least make it challenging. :lol:
     
  4. mercury529

    mercury529 Warlord

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    It would provide more versatility if every improvement type was replaced with a single improvement, the effects of which you could modify. Versatility is not a trait that inherently adds value to a game. It can easily become something minimizing the need to have a long-term strategic vision.

    If you fail to execute on your primary strategy, it shouldn't be simplistic to shift to another. It should take creativity and cunning to win when you misidentified a particular type of victory type as your most probable means of success. It is the ideal opportunity for you to show versatility as a player, finding ways to adapt to unfavorable circumstances.
     
  5. neptune2000

    neptune2000 Warlord

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    I have only played 56 turns of a demo game. That said...

    I'm not sure why civics and social policies (ugh, I hate that name for some reason) have to be mutually exclusive. At a glance, I really like SPs as a replacement for the Civ/leader traits. Building your civ's cultural traits over the millenia adds to the historical flavor of the game and even adds a bit of an RPG feel. At the same time, why shouldn't I be able to have some form of civics where I can switch governments back and forth (maybe not identically to previous Civ games)? After all, it's still in a sense a god game; I am the immortal leader for 4000 years, I should be able to change my government, subject to anarchy/unhappiness/etc.

    Full disclosure: I'm not a great Civ player, I've never even played at immortal/diety. I have however been playing from Civ I. I play it in a sandbox style: I like a challenge but I play to "feel" the epic nature of the game.
     
  6. vandyr

    vandyr Prince

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    In my current game ( as Greece on Prince ) I've been friends with Catherine for centuries, even though she has an army about three to five times the size of mine. We constantly have research pacts going and luxury trades, but I'm pretty sure that the AI thinks it could destroy me if it wanted to. I've had other leaders contact me to tell me they thought my army was weak, but not her. I'm also ahead of her in points.
     
  7. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I agree, and I even detailed how to make it work that way with just xml. :p

     
  8. ZXTT

    ZXTT Chieftain

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    Nice write up, Flavorable. This is pretty much how I've felt. Civ IV had all this wonderful stuff, but in the end I felt like I was following a recipe (ie. stuff I'd learned about chopping, slave-building, Sid's Sushi etc.) instead of doing what I really wanted, which is to create the recipe based on the circumstances.

    I want to make decisions that matter and then move on to the next decision, not spend 30 mins per turn moving my pieces around and messing with my cities to match the optimal strategy.

    Still to early to tell if Civ V does the job, but so far I'm enjoying it.
     
  9. neptune2000

    neptune2000 Warlord

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    I read that, and look forward to a mod you might do! It sounds like it could be intersting (more details?) But wouldn't a "PolicyDisables" tag just change it so you can have one with the other (piety/rationalism), not that you can switch back and forth?

    I think that, at least in standard/unmodded Civ, some of these should be exclusive. Also some of them are great as RPG-type permanent modifiers, namely the ones that are more "personality" types as opposed to governing types.
     
  10. moscaverde

    moscaverde Prince

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    I agree with neptune2000.
    More and more I look at Civ 5 and 4 and think how great a game would be if it was somewhat the sum of the two.
    The more focused happines and health of 4 with the global of 5 (IIRC there were mod that simulate that, or stability in that way).
    The more dynamic civics of 4 with the great concept of SP of 5 (i really liked the more influencial culture in civ 5 and how it spreads your borders).
    International trade routes with limited resource uses.
    Etc.
    For now, I'm not liking much Civ 5, but certainly there are many strategies in the game.
    I believe Civ now is more about the grand strategy, with having to choose carefully what to build (as they take an enormous time to build). If I'm not mistaken, the looks more like resource management board games. A pity, as I find them very boring.
     
  11. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Oh, I have no plans to do anything like that. My mod will feature entirely new SP trees, not changing the existing ones, in order to simulate something entirely different. :mischief::mischief:

    To answer your specific questions: PolicyDisables would allow policyA (piety) to disable policyB (rationalism). You'd have to specify it back the other way, as well. Assuming it works in the same way as the PolicyBranchDisables (for the full trees), then the disabled ones may still be taken, but you lose the other. So you can switch. Note, I have not tested that, as it's not used in the core game.
     
  12. mrt144

    mrt144 Deity

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    Happiness absolutely did. It was a hard limit to growth and there were several ways to overcome it.
     
  13. Gorey

    Gorey Prince

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    I actually find that alot of the complexity in Civ 5 is because it's so dang unbalanced in its present form. Nothing seems to make any sense.
     
  14. kozzer

    kozzer Liberated Autocrat

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    Almost like it's a completely new game, right?
     
  15. ChronoReverse

    ChronoReverse Chieftain

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    Yeah, I've been able to maintain peace with some neighbors (at the cost of joining one of their wars of which my participation was limited to naval bombardment) and there's no sign of them backstabbing me yet. With the 1upt mechanic, two land-units can hold the primary choke point to my territory as long as I use my navy to help out.
     
  16. Beardy Dan

    Beardy Dan Warlord

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    So these 8 new SP trees, they wouldn't happen to be the religions by any chance?
     
  17. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    It's been cut down to 6 trees, and I won't say. Speculate wildly if you wish, all I'll say is that they are not standard social policies. :p
     
  18. MentatYP

    MentatYP Chieftain

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    One theme I see repeated many times in this thread and elsewhere is what I consider inaccurate use of the term "complex"/"complexity". There were more systems in Civ 4. I believe that to be fact, not opinion--please correct me if I'm wrong. But the way these systems were implemented in Civ 4 what you got wasn't "complex" but rather "complicated". Unless you played all the time you really had to do some mental gymnastics to figure out how to keep each city happy for instance, which translated to micromanagement--complicated and at times tedious, especially in the endgame stage.

    To me, generally for a game to be complex it has to provide the structure to enable various playing styles to achieve a variety of goals, while at the same time not overwhelm players with calculations to the 10th decimal place, except for those exceptions where that's the design goal of the game. Maybe Civ had grown to fill that niche, and with the changes in Civ 5 people who were attracted to the complexity of low-level gaming details now feel shunned. I feel some sympathy for them, but at the same time I believe Civ 5 is a better game for having shed that extra baggage. It still accommodates a variety of playing styles and goals while centralizing a lot of the previously decentralized management, making the management narrower but arguably deeper because of the need to plan ahead instead of flipping a switch every once in a while when you get into a tight spot. In that way it retains a level of complexity but sheds overly complicated mechanics to provide a laser focus approach to civ management.

    I'm not trying to disparage those who prefer the Civ 4 philosophy, even though I'm about to phrase a few aspects of it negatively. Personally, after playing 4 versions and 20 years worth of glorified spreadsheet management (albeit very fun at times) I was ready for a change. Civ 5 is a massive change in philosophy (I'll refrain from the overused "paradigm shift"), and one that everybody will need some time to get used to. Having said that, I don't think Civ 5 will ever appeal to the hardcore power-gamer crowd who mainly liked to play Civ 4 at Immortal and tweak every last ounce of performance out of their civs following a pretty formulaic approach that you can't deviate too far from lest you lose. There's a much larger scale mindset with Civ 5, with a long arc and storytelling bent that existed to some extent in previous Civs but got lost in the minutiae of micromanagement. The fact that they've done a lot to alleviate the minutiae doesn't necessarily make this game less complex. It just makes it less complicated.
     
  19. deamon32

    deamon32 Chieftain

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    The OP has got it right, I have been reading about everyone complaining how the economy has been dumbed down due to global happyness and the fact that the gold slider is now gone, but I personally have to agree that those two changes specifically adds a lot more depth to the game and makes it more complex than Civ4.

    I kind of miss not having city health, which would add another layer of strategy but I am fairly happy with what I can do with my money (extra food, culture, extra units, speed up production of buildings and units, etc)
     
  20. RD-BH

    RD-BH Human

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    NOTE:
    ... Just about every online RPG has some mechanism to respec those 'talent trees'.

    SPs in Civ V aren't a choice; they're a 'shot in the dark'.
     

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