civ v

[jurrot]

hello and welcome
the fact that there is not possible to have more than one military unit on a playing square at anyone time I find irrealistic. In the real world more than one group of soldiers can remain in the same place. Please change in any future versions and or mods.
p.s.
is there a mod that allows more than one unit per square?

Moderator Action: Moved to Civ5 C&C.

 

[Irkalla]

hello and welcome
the fact that there is not possible to have more than one military unit on a playing square at anyone time I find irrealistic. In the real world more than one group of soldiers can remain in the same place. Please change in any future versions and or mods.
p.s.
is there a mod that allows more than one unit per square?

Moderator Action: Moved to Civ5 C&C.

They're not units that you're used to. They're large groups of assets. Like, on the scale of an entire company/squadron of assets probably. Which is between about 100 and 300 men and their equipment.

For example, you create a mechanized infantry unit, you're not just making a couple of IFVs with dudes with guns inside... You're training about 150 guys with rifles, 50 guys that specialise in special weapons like Anti-Armour weapons and Heavy MG's and stuff. one Medic per 50 men, a Pencil Pusher, A guy to handle prisoners of war and traitors and such, a Low level Noncommissioned Officer, a higher level NCO, a First Sergeant, a low level commissioned officer like a Lieutenant to act as XO, that is, command in lieu of the CO, and something like a Colonel to be the CO. That's a lot of guys, and that's why it takes years to train one up.

It makes sense that you can only have one unit per tile. I'm sure in previous games a unit represented literally one asset, but in this game a unit represents many, many assets.

I'm not sure why people buy this game with the mindset "I want to play X game, so I'll buy Y game."

If you're still dead set on having multiple units per tile, then look around for a mod that does it. There's enough of them around that you should be able to find one.

Also stack of doom.

 

[trystero49]

hello and welcome
the fact that there is not possible to have more than one military unit on a playing square at anyone time I find irrealistic. In the real world more than one group of soldiers can remain in the same place. Please change in any future versions and or mods.
p.s.
is there a mod that allows more than one unit per square?

Moderator Action: Moved to Civ5 C&C.

I think there are a bunch. "Legions" "2UPT" "5UPT"...

Check whoward69s mix and match mods. I think he made a few.

 

[ww2commander]

Aside from stack of doom addicts, I don't really see what the issue is with 1UPT.

When I first heard civ5 was going this way I was completely against it (I held out for 1 year before buying the game). But once I bought it and played a few games I realize how much it improves the strategy angle of the game. I think more than 1 unit per tile makes players lazy with their game strategy (or lack of it) as it forgives player errors more easily. Knowing a single unit (like real life) must hold or plug a gap is more nail-biting then parking 20 units on one tile and knowing nothing will ever get through.

It also adds a logistics element of rotating wounded units on a frontline like in reallife.

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.

 

[trystero49]

Stack of Doom also breaks the current city mechanic. Imaging trying to take a city with 20 ranged units inside!

 

[jurrot]

Hello its me again, about the stacking of armed forces on tiles...
The point that I wanted to make is that leaving troops laying around the country exactly where we left them (pratically in open fields etc) is not very realistic.

Also the artilary, planes and firing ships should also be able to destroy improvements on land tiles within their firing range.

And another point, why can't we have vasla governments like in Civ IV - it would be nice to be able to conquer a people and instal something like the Vichey government in France.

For now, thats all. Hope some mods and improvements can deal with these issues - and what does anyone else think.

 

[Irkalla]

Hello its me again, about the stacking of armed forces on tiles...
The point that I wanted to make is that leaving troops laying around the country exactly where we left them (pratically in open fields etc) is not very realistic.

Also the artilary, planes and firing ships should also be able to destroy improvements on land tiles within their firing range.

And another point, why can't we have vasla governments like in Civ IV - it would be nice to be able to conquer a people and instal something like the Vichey government in France.

For now, thats all. Hope some mods and improvements can deal with these issues - and what does anyone else think.

Can you make your point without mentioning Civ IV?

"Oh hey I wanted X game so I bought Y game. Why isn't Y game like X game?"

 

[3335d]

Can you make your point without mentioning Civ IV?

"Oh hey I wanted X game so I bought Y game. Why isn't Y game like X game?"

There may be elements from one game that he might like in the context of another. Games are not binary monoliths, and it is clear that he does not want Civilization IV because he seems to like many of the features of Civilization V but dislikes in particular the nonstackable aspect of units.

Besides, if we should just "X game", what's the point of modding at all?

 

[Irkalla]

There may be elements from one game that he might like in the context of another. Games are not binary monoliths, and it is clear that he does not want Civilization IV because he seems to like many of the features of Civilization V but dislikes in particular the nonstackable aspect of units.

Besides, if we should just "X game", what's the point of modding at all?

Fair enough, I just feel like you're taking steps back when the point of modding is to take a step forward.

I think I'm punishing him for all the others that come here, and haven't played Civ V but would play it if it weren't for 1 unit per tile. It's like, wow. How can you not like something you've never tried. And yes, I'm inferring that he hasn't played Civ V enough to learn to appreciate it.

I'm not telling him that he shouldn't do it or play like that, I just want to seem him try it, because he might actually learn to like it.

Also stack of doom. Instantly refutes any argument against 1UPT.

Stack of makes the game even more stupidly easy, and minimizes your risk of losing. Without that risk of losing, you will NEVER experience the thrill of victory, EVER. And I want better than that for players, you know?

 

[Horem]

Stack of Doom also breaks the current city mechanic. Imaging trying to take a city with 20 ranged units inside!

Urm? My experience from playing is you take a city, all units in said city....vanish.

 

[3335d]

Fair enough, I just feel like you're taking steps back when the point of modding is to take a step forward.

I think I'm punishing him for all the others that come here, and haven't played Civ V but would play it if it weren't for 1 unit per tile. It's like, wow. How can you not like something you've never tried. And yes, I'm inferring that he hasn't played Civ V enough to learn to appreciate it.

I'm not telling him that he shouldn't do it or play like that, I just want to seem him try it, because he might actually learn to like it.

Also stack of doom. Instantly refutes any argument against 1UPT.

Stack of makes the game even more stupidly easy, and minimizes your risk of losing. Without that risk of losing, you will NEVER experience the thrill of victory, EVER. And I want better than that for players, you know?

Unit stacking would be better for some things like transportation on railroads and "basing" of units, but on the battlefront it should be 1UPT. Transport vessels and bases (which would be really lua-placed immobile units) could have minimal strength.

 

[omarshaheen]

I know It's been a while since the post was made, but since there is no convincing multi-unit per tile mod that includes fixes to AI dlls in order to improve gameplay then one feels that the argument should still be made for the need to have multiple unit per tile supported:
First off, you can pack the entire population of Earth in an area roughly twice the size of Long Island, provided that every person would stand 3 feet (1m) from the other.
When troops are placed in a battlefield the distribution and density of the deployment varies greatly and you could have very large number of troops in small areas which are heavily fortified, or in cities because they can use urban warfare, and in open fields like roman Testudo/tortoise formations which were very strong in their times specifically because of the way they are densely packed.

Now, Civ4 did have a problem specifically with "the stack of doom" strategy because "collateral" damage was not properly reflected on the battlefield, almost any kind of military assault is bound to produce collateral damage when the defenders are densely packed in a small area, Civ4 did not reflect that.
The other thing which is more of a game play issue is that there has to be a cap on the maximum number of units per tile, and the reason for that is mainly to reflect the desired map scale as far as the military aspect of the game is concerned. It may not be completely realisitc but nevertheless it does help introduce some tactical element to gameplay.

If anyone knows any MUT mods that has taken AI into account please post.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I like single unit stacking... but that being saud I think there may be room for some sort of combined forces stacking...

For example, units of different typed might be able to stack in stacks of 2. For instance a horseman or chariot stacked with a swordsman or archer. Then members of the stack could have different roles... perhaps the swordsman might soften up those pesky spearmen for a horseman breakthrough... of course units and AI would have to be adjusted for balance... I would decrease ranged distance by one (except for units already at 1).

I actually think this would increase the tactical choices... this is coming from a dice and chit wargamer where this kind of stacking is normal.

 

[Gedemon]

You can try that: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506623 (I will update it to last patch this WE)

What's the specific problem(s) with the AI ?

 

[yorkgrass]

Well, if you ever played chess, have you ever tried to put king and queen in one bed? They should!

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Was commenting generally about the possibility of AI not being able to handle such specific unit stacking requirements.... wasn't aware of your mod until now, except only vaguely. Was an uninformed assumption of mine. Will have to try your mod out... I'm certain that you've worked out any AI kinks, if any.

 

[Gedemon]

If you allow stacking, the AI will stacks it's units on plots it want to attack or defend, you don't need to add code for that.

But it will still sometime leave ranged units unprotected, as it does in 1UPT.

 

[omarshaheen]

Thanks Gedemon
I was not aware of your mod as well, the one particular aspect that I would have had differently is unit cost, which seems to have been lowered in the mod, of course in addition to the option of increasing the number of stackable units per class (options for 3, 4 & 5 would be useful).
Anyway, I usually custom define all unit properties (and techs) including cost in order to make the game more realistic and better suited for very large maps.

 

[omarshaheen]

I have introduces some changes to Gedemon's Mod in order to reflect the size and composition of units in Civ 5, while taking into account the way actual military units are organized in real life. In conclusion, I have changed the maximum number of units per tile of the same class to three, and I have changed the number of classes to two, where one contains Melee units, and the other contains all other support units (incl. archers, Artillery, recon, helicopter units). I also did modify other aspects of the game but those go beyond the scope of this thread.
The changes are geared towards using the same tactical military groups used in battlefields, by having a tile support up to one military division, and dealing with individual military units as combat and support brigades (of which a division has 3 to 7 in total). Below, I have summed up the analysis that I went through to investigate the way Civ 5 handles Units and how best to reflect real life battlefields in the game.

What I have noticed is that the "average" number of soldiers per unit is about 5,000 this number was the result of adding units of different types to the game (with IGE), and assessing the demographics for each combination.
5000 Soldiers is on the upper end of brigade size, where a typical brigade size is about 3000 to 5000 soldiers, western armies tend to be on the smaller side.
On the other hand, a military division which is the basic military formation capable of performing tasks on a battlefield front is composed of several brigades. "...consisting of between 10,000 and 30,000 soldiers. In most armies, a division is composed of several regiments or brigades; in turn, several divisions typically make up a corps. In most modern militaries, a division tends to be the smallest combined arms unit capable of independent operations; this is due to its self-sustaining role as a unit with a range of combat troops and suitable combat support forces, which can be divided into various organic combinations." (Wikipedia).
I am attaching below the composition of two German and one Russian divisions during World War II, the German (1st Panzer Division, and a typical formation for their Infantry divisions), and on the other side the Russian 9th Tank Division.
It can be noted that the Germans rely on 2 combat brigades and the equivalent of one support brigade divided into anti-tank, artillary, recon, and other support battalions. The Russians on the other hand tend to deploy 3 combat brigades (Melee), and the equivalent of two support brigades.
German 1st Panzer Div. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Panzer_Division_(Wehrmacht)
Russian 9th Tank Div. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Tank_Division