Civ2 mod for Civ4?

[musicfreak]

I've heard a lot of complaints about how Civilization is going in the wrong direction, and how Firaxis ruined everything, and how Civ2 was the best Civ game ever made because of its simplicity. So, I am proposing to make a Civ2 mod for Civ4.

In my opinion, Civ 2 was in many ways better than Civ3 or Civ4, but the problem is that the game is really old and unplayable nowdays. However, the Civ4 game engine gives us a lot of power, so we can bypass the limitations of Civ2's primitive engine and recreate it on a whole new level. Who knows, maybe it will even be fun.

Would anyone be interested? I can do most of the DLL and Python stuff, but I'll need someone who knows the game well, because I haven't played it in years and I don't remember most of the game mechanics. Most of the graphics required are already in Civ4, but I'll need a graphics person for the ones that aren't.

So, who's in?


PS: Would there be any legal issues in doing this? Should I send Firaxis an email before I start anything? I'm not sure what to do, seeing as how they didn't make Civ2.

 

[NikNaks]

Okay, not having played Civ 2, what are the main differences that we'd be addressing here?

 

[Zacar]

I doubt there are any legal issues, unless you utilize something that is copyrighted, or ask money or something.

Civ 2 was a great game.. and I can agree that Civ 4 doesn't feel as perfect (for whatever reason). But to "recreate" Civ 2? It already exists, and it wasn't perfect either. As you say, I don't remember all of the game mechanics either. But I miss the thorne room for sure.

The greatest potential of Civ4 are total conversions, as opposed to change type mods. So a plan of a project like this is always exciting.

But there are so many potential rulesets and features.

Talking about total conversions.. does an "empty" mod exist? One that would basically offer the functionality of the closed engine, that we cannot change. I'd see documenting the functionality of the closed engine as the first step to help any bigger modification.. but then again I'm not a great modder.

 

[musicfreak]

Okay, not having played Civ 2, what are the main differences that we'd be addressing here?

Well I think the biggest difference is the way battles are handled. Units have attack and defense ratings, as well as hit points. Also, the game obviously has a lot less stuff than Civ4 (no religions, no culture, etc). Some other things include a lack of the air unit system that Civ4 has (air units attacked ground units directly...although we can change this).

I doubt there are any legal issues, unless you utilize something that is copyrighted, or ask money or something.

Well I was just wondering because there's a total conversion mod that turns Warcraft 3 into Starcraft, and there were some legal issues the team had to deal with. But I guess since I won't be directly using any part of Civ2 (unlike the Warcraft mod, which used Starcraft sounds), there shouldn't be any problems.

Civ 2 was a great game.. and I can agree that Civ 4 doesn't feel as perfect (for whatever reason). But to "recreate" Civ 2? It already exists, and it wasn't perfect either.

Well I think it wasn't perfect just because of usability issues and limitations of the engine at that time. With the Civ4 engine we would be able to overcome those limitations and combine Civ4's interface and usability with Civ2's gameplay. Also, it's really hard to find a copy of Civ2 these days.

Talking about total conversions.. does an "empty" mod exist? One that would basically offer the functionality of the closed engine, that we cannot change. I'd see documenting the functionality of the closed engine as the first step to help any bigger modification.. but then again I'm not a great modder.

I'm not sure what you mean, but no, an "empty" mod does not exist, and I'm not sure I'd need one. All I'd have to do is strip out all the functionality that Civ2 doesn't use (religions and corporations, for example) and rewrite the combat engine. I think it would be easier (at least for me, as I'm not incredibly familiar with the SDK) than writing it from scratch.

 

[GoodGame]

Perhaps a more limited in scope mod would be better start, like a Civ2 combat mini-mod for Civ4?

 

[NikNaks]

I think an attack-defense mod would be a good start. I'd definitely like to see that.

 

[Zacar]

Well here is a little incomplete list of.. differences, when moving from Civ4 to Civ2. I was mostly thinking of different behaviour, not wonder bonuses/units etc. Might remember something wrong.

REMOVE: Resource functionality
REMOVE: Health&Happiness
REMOVE: Borders
REMOVE: Civilization maintenance costs&inflation with them
CHANGE: Additional terrain features like forests and hills are terrain types of their own
CHANGE: Rivers travel inside tiles, not between them
CHANGE: Unit maintenance by city, not by civilization (cottages found units require no support, as they have no home city). Home city can also be changed. Unit maintenance costs production, not gold (do I really remember this correctly?)
CHANGE: Producing settlers uses only production, no food
CHANGE: After producing a settler, city size shrinks (...by 1? Civ3 mechanics interrupting)
CHANGE: Settlers act as both workers and settlers
CHANGE: City production is bound to city, instead of the building slot
CHANGE: Air units are more like other units, just with the ability to move over anything.
CHANGE: Sometimes when terrain is worked, it changes to another type of terrain, instead of gaining the enhancement (depending on terrain)
CHANGE: Mountains are passable
CHANGE: Triemes not bound to coasts. May sink if not near a coast
CHANGE: Units have Attack/Defense/Firepower/Hit points instead of just one strength stat
ADD: Engineer unit, that can "transform" terrain
ADD: Embassies
ADD: Commerce from roads
ADD: "Shield" spots for some grassland tiles
ADD: Building maintenance costs
ADD: Pollution
ADD: Corruption/Waste
ADD: Zone-of-Control
ADD: Throne room

Here seems to be some details in easily digested form: http://planetcivilization.gamespy.com/civilization2/

 

[musicfreak]

I think an attack-defense mod would be a good start. I'd definitely like to see that.

Okay, I'll start with that then and release it as a separate modcomp. I just got a web design assignment with a strict deadline so I might not have much time to work on this, so don't expect it too soon.

@Zacar: Wow, thanks for the list. I forgot about most of those. I'll make note of that.

 

[Junuxx]

I think an attack-defense mod would be a good start. I'd definitely like to see that.

The Fall from Heaven mod has separate attack/defense factors on some occasions (as a result of certain promotions).

 

[Junuxx]

Well here is a little incomplete list of.. differences, when moving from Civ4 to Civ2. I was mostly thinking of different behaviour, not wonder bonuses/units etc. Might remember something wrong.

REMOVE: Resource functionality
REMOVE: Health&Happiness
REMOVE: Borders
REMOVE: Civilization maintenance costs&inflation with them
CHANGE: Additional terrain features like forests and hills are terrain types of their own
CHANGE: Rivers travel inside tiles, not between them
CHANGE: Unit maintenance by city, not by civilization (cottages found units require no support, as they have no home city). Home city can also be changed. Unit maintenance costs production, not gold (do I really remember this correctly?)
CHANGE: Producing settlers uses only production, no food
CHANGE: After producing a settler, city size shrinks (...by 1? Civ3 mechanics interrupting)
CHANGE: Settlers act as both workers and settlers
CHANGE: City production is bound to city, instead of the building slot
CHANGE: Air units are more like other units, just with the ability to move over anything.
CHANGE: Sometimes when terrain is worked, it changes to another type of terrain, instead of gaining the enhancement (depending on terrain)
CHANGE: Mountains are passable
CHANGE: Triemes not bound to coasts. May sink if not near a coast
CHANGE: Units have Attack/Defense/Firepower/Hit points instead of just one strength stat
ADD: Engineer unit, that can "transform" terrain
ADD: Embassies
ADD: Commerce from roads
ADD: "Shield" spots for some grassland tiles
ADD: Building maintenance costs
ADD: Pollution
ADD: Corruption/Waste
ADD: Zone-of-Control
ADD: Throne room

Here seems to be some details in easily digested form: http://planetcivilization.gamespy.com/civilization2/

Nice. Civ2 really was a gem. Actually, there's no such thing as a coast terrain in Civ2, just sea. No fresh water lake either.

Some additions:
REMOVE: Cultural, Domination and Diplomatic victories
REMOVE: Vassals, Perm Alliance, Open Borders, Mutual Defense Pact, gold trading (can be tributed, but not traded for techs etc)
REMOVE: Great People, Golden Ages, unique units and buildings
CHANGE: Trade routes (by Caravan units instead of automatic)
ADD: Spies/Diplomats bribing cities and units, planting nukes
ADD: Darwin's Voyage and Leo's Workshop

 

[Andrew_Jay]

ADD: Zone-of-Control

I'd like to see a mod that incorporated just that.

I remember hating it back when I played Civ II years ago, but kind of miss it now. It added a significant degree of strategy to combat - it was possible to actually create a battle front, with all of the exciting opportunities for breakthroughs, etc.

It's kind of funny that they did away without it in 3, and especially in 4. For all of the talk about putting an end to the "stack of doom" with artillery and collateral damage - zone of control was (or would be) the perfect counter. What good is a single giant stack if a few smaller groups can trap it in place and render it immobile?

 

[musicfreak]

I remember hating it back when I played Civ II years ago, but kind of miss it now. It added a significant degree of strategy to combat - it was possible to actually create a battle front, with all of the exciting opportunities for breakthroughs, etc.

It's kind of funny that they did away without it in 3, and especially in 4. For all of the talk about putting an end to the "stack of doom" with artillery and collateral damage - zone of control was (or would be) the perfect counter. What good is a single giant stack if a few smaller groups can trap it in place and render it immobile?

Hah, my thoughts exactly. I hated it back then but I recently played Call to Power II (which is really similar to Civ, and has zones of control) and I immediately wondered why they removed them from Civ3/Civ4.

A zone-of-control mod would be extremely easy, but does it only work when at war, or at all times? I don't remember.

 

[Junuxx]

Hah, my thoughts exactly. I hated it back then but I recently played Call to Power II (which is really similar to Civ, and has zones of control) and I immediately wondered why they removed them from Civ3/Civ4.

A zone-of-control mod would be extremely easy, but does it only work when at war, or at all times? I don't remember.

I think it worked when you were at peace too, but not between allies.

 

[Andrew_Jay]

Cool, glad I'm not alone with the zone-of-control nostalgia.

Unfortunately I have no programing skills (best I can do is work with the XML), but I think it'd be great if we had a mod just for this little detail.

Actually, now that I think of it, this is probably the only part of a Civ4>Civ2 mod that couldn't be done with just XML (as far as I can tell off of the top of my head).

 

[Junuxx]

How about the commerce caps? (for example, under a Monarchy you could not set the science slider higher than 70%)

 

[GoodGame]

I would like to see ZoC as well as it was very standard in a lot paper wargames. But your one example wouldn't be very realistic, at least for mobile forces which should be able to bypass the enemy (i.e. fight a running battle and disengage in the direction they want to travel).

I'd like to see a mod that incorporated just that.

I remember hating it back when I played Civ II years ago, but kind of miss it now. It added a significant degree of strategy to combat - it was possible to actually create a battle front, with all of the exciting opportunities for breakthroughs, etc.

It's kind of funny that they did away without it in 3, and especially in 4. For all of the talk about putting an end to the "stack of doom" with artillery and collateral damage - zone of control was (or would be) the perfect counter. What good is a single giant stack if a few smaller groups can trap it in place and render it immobile?

 

[musicfreak]

Sorry for the lack of responses guys, I've been really busy lately, getting ready for school and stuff. Needless to say I probably won't have enough time to make a complete Civ2 total conversion mod, but I'll still make the ZoC one and maybe (if I have enough time) an attack/defense mod as well. Sorry again.

 

[Jeckel]

I think.. AlaskaAssassin made a ZoC mod that had the movement rules from Civ2. Might want to do a search on the site here. I don't know if its updated to BtS or not, but would be a place to start.

 

[Andrew_Jay]

I think.. AlaskaAssassin made a ZoC mod that had the movement rules from Civ2. Might want to do a search on the site here. I don't know if its updated to BtS or not, but would be a place to start.

Thanks!

I'm taking a look at it . . . I might find something there, though I can't get my head around python at all.