Civ3 is AWFUL

What do you think for Civ3?

  • Awful

    Votes: 11 8.0%
  • Bad

    Votes: 17 12.4%
  • Better than Civ2

    Votes: 101 73.7%
  • I have not played Civ1 or Civ2

    Votes: 8 5.8%

  • Total voters
    137
Originally posted by Troyens
The incredibly long lag time between turns with more than eight civs when we get to the 19th Century.
A problem Firaxis has noted. This is because they bowed to the overwhelming user requests for more than 8 opponents before the game was released. I wouldn't call it incredibly long lag time, and it becomes negligible on my computer by not using a huge map.

Army units cannot unload the combat units inside them for upgrading. We apparently can't even change that in Editor as it is hard-coded in.
Juggling units within armies or upgrading them would makes armies too powerful. This a design issue. Armies are not easy to get, (need to use a leader or use a leader and build a wonder), and can already become the most powerful unit for an age. You're asking for the most powerful unit across all ages? A "single" unit (not one type of unit but one unit) could walk over an entire civ or the human player. Just too unbalanced.

Army units appear to always move with a '1' movement rate.
Empty armies have a 1 movement rate. Spearmen have a 1 movement rate. Your point is? Of course an army built entirely of tank will have a movement rate of 2. An army of all tanks and one spearman will move as slow as its slowest unit and have 1 movement. I don't see the problem.

We can no long use roads and railroads in enemy territory when invading. I will give you railroads. BUT NOT ROADS! The defender should have to PILLAGE them to prevent their use by the invader.
Again, a design issue. This falls into the "I don't like the way culture works" complaints bin. You could also see "roads" as knowing the infrastructure, having shorter supply lines, and knowing what might slow you down and avoiding it. None of which an invader would be able to use.

Civ III maynot be "awful", but I sure expected better. I also expected to not have to pay Firaxis to end up a Beta playtester!
It sounds more like you expected Firaxis to design a game for your rules. Now if you were to complain about the refresh rate problems, air superiority being broken, or workers not unfortifying to clean up pollution, I'd agree that you were a Betatester. But complaints about Civ3 not having the rules you expected or not being balanced in your favor don't buy much.
 
Originally posted by Mr Spice


I recognize the feeling. When Civ 2 was released I was very disappointed. "WTH, it is almost the same game", I thought. And proceeded to throw it into the wall. Or strictly speaking not - since I spent some money on it - but I really felt like it. A year later or so I tried it again, and was owerwhelmed, I could not stop playing. I guess that you agree with me that Civ 1 and 2 are quite different, and my first opinion of Civ 2 was a bit unfair. It turned out that I had just gotten tired of Civ and needed a break to get the "Civ-feeling" back.

To me it seems very likely that something similar has happened to you. I feel very sorry for you, but please do not call us others arrogant bastards only because we do not share your fate this time. And please do not tell us that we are idiots only beacuse we like a game that you do not.

oh? and did i call ANYone an idiot? no i didnt, i dont flame anyone ... and i refer to the arrogent bastards that feel the need to flame someone because civ3 is obviously the greatest game ever to grace the 4x genere :rolleyes: ... civ3 ISNT the game it could have been, and i dont think anyone could deny the backward step so many features have taken, not from civ2 (has pretty much all gone forward from there) but from Alpha Centuri

there are civ clones 8-10 years old that have multiplayer!! .. i dont hate the game, i am still here playing it and posting my greviences and prases, i can see the massive potential trying its hardest to pop out but civ3 is mediocre at best as is now

as i stated before i beleive that firaxis have begun to dig there own graves, and hopefully the next civ style title they put out will carry some innovation in it
 
Well, having finally sat down and played Civ3, I will say that my initial impression is one of abject disappointment. While they are many little improvements, overall the game suffers from serious, historical flaws that makes it appear as an unworthy successor to Civ1 and Civ2. Indeed, some of the historical dynamics are so far off base as to make me wonder as to the extent that Sid was involved with this project. Granted, having studied Civilization and world history for more than fifteen years, my evaluation reflects a serious attitude toward any historical simulation that attempts to reconstruct the history of civilization.

I'm going to have play this a few more times before I pass final judgment ... and compile a list of errors to correct for Civ4; but my initial impression is that Civ2 may remain the better game than Civ3.

(I'll be back ....)
 
I'm just currious about one thing. Lots of Troyens observations about how "crappy" this game was, were about how unrealistic it was. I just need to say one thing. its a game, not real life, Thus being a game, balancing the game is more important than reality. Also one thing you complained about was how the game doesn't let you Bee-line towards one specific tech. Well you know what. The way you discover tech in this game isn't realistic at all.

It would be realistic if it was like SMAC blind research. YOu dont sit down and say im gonig to discover philosophy in a while or I'm going to discover replaceable parts. Its more you develop ideas and they lead you towards discoveries, but you dont know when you start where it will end up. So yeah, it seems you want the game to be realistic when it helps you win faster but unrealistic when that helps you win faster.

Im sure you wouldn't be complaining about Culture-Flips if you could build a wonder that would prevent your cities from being flipped, while still being able to flip enemy cities.
 
Originally posted by Furry Spatula
I'm just currious about one thing. Lots of Troyens observations about how "crappy" this game was, were about how unrealistic it was. I just need to say one thing. its a game, not real life, Thus being a game, balancing the game is more important than reality. Also one thing you complained about was how the game doesn't let you Bee-line towards one specific tech. Well you know what. The way you discover tech in this game isn't realistic at all.

It would be realistic if it was like SMAC blind research. YOu dont sit down and say im gonig to discover philosophy in a while or I'm going to discover replaceable parts. Its more you develop ideas and they lead you towards discoveries, but you dont know when you start where it will end up. So yeah, it seems you want the game to be realistic when it helps you win faster but unrealistic when that helps you win faster.

Im sure you wouldn't be complaining about Culture-Flips if you could build a wonder that would prevent your cities from being flipped, while still being able to flip enemy cities.


Wrong on all counts.

The game lacks playablity, and it is extremely irritating with its stupid, illogical, suicidal, and cheating AI. Among other things.

Culture Flipping cities or borders are a crock as shown in Civ III.
I can conceive of borders moving over undeveloped territory outside of a city's production zone, but NEVER on improvements and even garrisoned fortifications, and if you refuse to leave your own improvements YOU get blamed as a warmonger! :crazyeyes

Garrisons DO stop defections in reality. The posts on this are many; check them out. I have given many examples. Here's another: Warsaw, 1944. A massive uprising by the entire Polish Underground (NOT the small Jewish uprising in 1943) was eventually crushed by the German MILITARY and the population decimated.

A counter-example: if Culture Flipping was anything other than a figment of Firaxis' imagination, tiny Taiwan would have defected to huge China decades ago. Hasn't happened. The people don't want it, and the U.S. MILITARY makes sure it does NOT happen.

Realism?? In Civ III waves of bombers can not sink a single warship!! Absolutely ludicrous. I find it insulting Firaxis had the nerve to give us such nonsense. They never heard of Pearl Harbor or the Battle of Midway, for instance.

Where is the scenario-builder??? What a ripoff that is not having it.

As for realism and history. . . those of you who don't care about it, or the tradition of Civ II, maybe you'd be happier with a FANTASY game instead of one that makes a mockery of History. And if you don't believe that, just go to the Completed Mods forum on this site and download the LWC mod. It needs some tweaking in Editor, but it is everything Civ III COULD have been regarding accuracy and realism if Firaxis gave a damn. And they don't. They don't need to be with all their Industry shills and suckups on various sites giving this flawed game great reviews.

Oh yes, one time a Roman city of '12', Actium, suddenly flipped to me as the Iroquois after FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of being Roman. I thought that just as stupid and annoying as if I had lost a city. Yea, after 5,000 years of Roman culture they will suddenly decide to become Iroquois! yea, surrrre.
 
Originally posted by Troyens
Garrisons DO stop defections in reality.

Have you never heard of betrayal? Do you think history is full of black-booted goose-steppers?

The Feudal Period is the story of how shifting alliances between localities eventually solidified into modern nations. One generation a town or county may side with the French, the next with the English.

A counter-example: if Culture Flipping was anything other than a figment of Firaxis' imagination, tiny Taiwan would have defected to huge China decades ago. [/B]

Good example, because one day China will be reunited.
 
ok your missing something hear in my view at least. If you allow armies to uload they would become way too powerful. You could easitly just load in a bunch of infantry if you see a mob of attackers comming and then switiching it to offensive when you want to attack. Its not realistic sure, but it makes the game more difficult, you need to plan ahead and look at whats more important.

Yes i do agree with one thing you stated though, how garrisons should be able to stop the uprisings, but on other accounts, i remember you mentioning how its dumb not to have leaders, workers or settlers airliftable. Thats for game balance, Firaxis didn't want you to be able to expand onto another continent as soon as you secured one city. Its just that they want it to be more of a challenge.

But honestly, how can you expect a game that has the Americans and Germans and British and French amoung others present at 4000bc to be historicaly accurate? how can you expect a game where you live for 6500 years to be realistic? How can you expect a game where you can have a republic or democracy for over 2000 years and get elected every time to be realistic? How can you expect a game when you can see what technology is avaliable 6500 years from when you start realistic? How can you expect a game where you create a fictional world to be realistic? How can you expect a game as complex as Civ 3 (its got sh*t loads of techs, build options and other variables) to have an AI as flexible as a human and manage to come up with stratagies not even programmed into it? :rolleyes: Absolutly Ludicrous!!!

I mean i think you are being a bit to criticle of the game. But if you like civ 2 better by all means play it I wont stop you :). So guess this debate is realy useless then isn't it?

And just so you know the AI cheats in lots of games. Take diablo 2 for instance, wihtout the map hack, monsters can see you before they are even on your screen, thus you cannot see them. Thats a cheat. WHy should they be able to see you and you not see them if they are even taller than you. However you dont see ppl saying how horrible the cheating AI is because of that.

And i remember one thread before. It asked what AI is better than Civ 3's. Yet no one had an answer, ppl just complained about Civ 3's AI but never mentioned a better one.

sorry, my rant is almost done, just one last point. Why do people think that gaming companies are Charities, just out there to give you everything you want? They are businesses, their main goal is to put out a game and make money, they dont want a 100% satisfaction rate, that would put them out of business and then there would be no more Sid games. Its just like this in diablo 2, sorry i make so many references to it but i played it for 2.5 years now and its a constant Bi**h fest on their forums, people think that Blizzard will give them everything that they want. Also it appears from this pole that the majority of ppl are satified with the game, therfore Firaxis completed its objectives, put out a game, get good customer response (not perfect though, which would be ideal but not plausible), and make money. And also, a company cannot meet everyones taste, how many copies did they sell? over 100,000 i assume. That means there are 100,000 differnt people out there, with different tastes, with different playing styles, that means that there is no way in hell they could accomedate everything everyone wants.
 
great arguement Furry Spatula :rolleyes: hear that Troyens? we should just go and play civ2 because we dont like civ3. and game companies should give gamers what they want! it IS my $90 that i payed, and ill assume that Troyens also payed his dues (and for that matter ill assume that u also payed your dues Furry Spatula)

whoever can say whatever they want and basicly the only people that matter are the firaxis team becasue they are the ones that are going to be making/changing it ... possably that is ...
and then off corse the developers of civ style clones will also be reading the forums (possably again) so that they can make there game better

actually ... my biggest gripe is that firaxis dont really SEEM to care about what anyone think, either that or they think people like not hearing boo about future work, like when the game came out there wasnt a peep about air superiority or even the patch untill it came out, now i might be COMPLETLY wrong but from where i sit it looks like firaxis are doing no work whatsoever to fix any issues and the big one ... WILL we get a multiplayer? still no promices and IF we get it will we have to fork out another $50 for the usual price of a expantion?
i want firaxis to tell us that work IS being done on a patch and the sorts of things that they are looking at fixing, or even that they see no need for a patch and they are in full swing for making the expantion, or even if they told us they are on holidays untill such a such date and to stop bothering them with peskie details

as is now DAN comes here sometimes and does a good job of answering the questions he can but there is never any news of what is to come. They should be telling us about some of the hidden parts of the game (like was eventually done for culture flipping) like what actual cheats the computer uses and IS it possable to have a few great leaders running around at the same time and whatnot .. the silly questions that we have to debate

and in the end, if u love this game and beleive that it is the pinicle of stratigy gaming in this genere and it really isn't possable to improve civ3 then u are so lucky to be content but for the minority of us that beleive that we are being scammed into civ2.5, will move on to bigger and better things. MOO3 is comming out in a few months (the planned release is june or so) and it is looking promising (but so did civ3) http://moo3.quicksilver.com/

and the developer is actually meeting some of the moo fans in person!! to talk to em about the upcomming game (unofficial but still) ... civ3 is in grave danger of losing its number 1 spot on the mantal, and im sure that sid doesnt want that or the firaxis team, but if they think that the original civ's is the end all of gameplay, then the civ name is doomed

there are none so blind as those that will not see

and if the firaxis team were to come here and find 100% off people are totally content and just talking about stratigy, then that would prove that civ3 is a great game and doesnt need any patching whatsoever, but that isnt the case and i will dare say that no one actually thinks that civ3 couldn't do with a patch or two
 
OK, Selous, you haven´t explicitly called anyone an idiot. I was refering to your "I know better than you what you think" - attitude that shows in for example your statement that "EVERYONE here had much higher expectations that what we have received". You can not possibly know what all of us are thinking, and such a statement is clearly an insult. Having someone else telling me what I am thinking is IMHO synonymous to beeing called an idiot.

As for the rest of my post, I was trying to give you a piece of well ment advise. Why do you insist on playing a game that only makes you feel disappointed?
 
I think the following dialogue was in a "Dilbert" cartoon:-

Manager: Let's find out what the customers want and give it to them!

Worker: They want a better product, and they want us to give to them for nothing.

Unfortunately we're not going to get it, folks. Welcome to capitalism. It's cr*p - but have a look at the alternative - Cuba or North Korea?

I've played a number of strategy games and they ALL are unsatisfactory in several ways. I still enjoy playing them. To pay $50 or less for a game I still expect to be playing in a couple of years time is a bargain IMO.
 
Originally posted by Mr Spice
OK, Selous, you haven´t explicitly called anyone an idiot. I was refering to your "I know better than you what you think" - attitude that shows in for example your statement that "EVERYONE here had much higher expectations that what we have received". You can not possibly know what all of us are thinking, and such a statement is clearly an insult. Having someone else telling me what I am thinking is IMHO synonymous to beeing called an idiot.

As for the rest of my post, I was trying to give you a piece of well ment advise. Why do you insist on playing a game that only makes you feel disappointed?

so most/some of u expected the game to be as is? i did kinda assume that multiplayer was in there, i also for some abstract reason that there was 3d terrain also, i was gravely dissapointed, but then u are right and that is me, i do appologise for saying that everyone had higher expectations, as im obviously wrong, some of u have no grievence's whatso ever and will play the game for another 5 years plus? (like civ2) ... i am sorry and it was rather arrogent of me to suggest what u think and beleive

and as to why i keep playing and posting? apart from the fact i spent $90 on it, i can see the huge potential that civ3 still offers, it could be the great game it is supposed to be and i do think that my post are reasonably constructive and somewhat objective (still biased by my opinion by hey .... u get that)


Originally posted by Furry Spatula

Why do people think that gaming companies are Charities, just out there to give you everything you want? They are businesses, their main goal is to put out a game and make money, they dont want a 100% satisfaction rate, that would put them out of business and then there would be no more Sid games.



and while it may be correct that a customer will purchace another product when he/she isnt 100% satisfied with the product he/she has got but it still doesnt mean that the customer will purchace from the same company, infact u may just find that the customer may well hate the company and never buy another product from that company out of pure spite. i for one have not boucht another westwood game after i bought dune2000, im not saying civ3 is quite that bad, but there are some disenfranchised civfanatics out there and im sure no one can say that is good (there i go again assuming everyones opinion, but surely im right this time?)

i rate company history and previous company support very highly when trying to decide a purchace, before civ3 i would have screamed blue in the face that the name sid on the box equals gold game that will be enjoyable for years to come (like almost every game ever made by sid) but now ..... i will look into a game by sid before i purchace, of corse this is my opinion and u are entitled to love it as much as i dislike it

all this game needs is a powerful editor and multiplayer to raise it from mediocre to good, some feedback from firaxis would be nice, just to give us an ETA on these needed features, and spit it out if we are going to have to pay for em

btw i also starved myself of civ2 and AC in antisipation of civ3, was also to busy furiously posting in high expectation, but civ3 hasnt got it to keep me interested for 5 years, or even a few months :(
 
Perhaps we could meet somewhere in the middle, or what do you say Selous? I admit that there are a few things that I would like to change in the game. And an editor is high on my wish list too.

It is just that when it all comes down, I think it is a good game. And I did not expect it to be better than it is. (Perhaps this is partly because I had to wait almost two months before the game was released in my country, and had the time to read plenty of flame-posts before buying it. That kind of brought my expectations down to a more realistic level. :D )

So, we both disagree about the game´s qualities but agree that it would benefit greatly from a good editor. No reason to become enemies over that, I suppose.

(Now where were we? What was it we were fighting about? :) )
 
Once upon a time there was a company called Microprose and a decade ago (+/-) they came out with the three best Strategy games ever to that point IMO: Civ, MOO and MOM. I still have a P1/90 MHz computer (with dos and an upper memory manager and tweaked autoexec and config.sys files (there must be someone else out there besides me who remembers having to do that stuff for every new game)) beside me so that I can occasionally go back and play MOM and sometimes MOO. I think that MOO was better than MOO2 but am nevertheless looking forward to MOO3. I don't think Civ2 was much of an advance on Civ but both were great games. I am impressed that Firaxis, the heirs of the Microprose mantle, were prepared to step out and take some chances with Civ3. Some people thinks it sucks, others - like me - think that that the addition of, e.g., culture and luxury/strategic resources are big steps forward.

The game is not perfect but if one knows the 80:20 rule, then Firaxis got it about right and does appear to be listening and sometimes actively asking about what needs to be fixed/ upgraded. Alot of what originally bugged me about the game - corruption comes immediately to mind - can be dealt with in the editor very satisfactorily. So can a lot of the other complaints that I read on various threads.

Personally, I would like to see the editor upgraded so that I and others who are more talented in such things can provide versions of the game that fit in better with my style and preferences. I would also prefer tactical combat a la MOM or even CTP to the more strategic combat in this game (which is a step improvement over Civ2) but understand that Sid et al have taken the view that tactical combat doesn't 'fit' the feel of the grand sweep of history that the game tries to impart and, at least IMO, has always succeeded in doing.

Finally, I will offer three figures in real dollars to anyone who comes up with MOM2 or a mod that allows me to play MOM2 - tactical combat and all - with the Civ3 engine. Heaven.
 
Originally posted by Mr Spice
Perhaps we could meet somewhere in the middle, or what do you say Selous? I admit that there are a few things that I would like to change in the game. And an editor is high on my wish list too.

It is just that when it all comes down, I think it is a good game. And I did not expect it to be better than it is. (Perhaps this is partly because I had to wait almost two months before the game was released in my country, and had the time to read plenty of flame-posts before buying it. That kind of brought my expectations down to a more realistic level. :D )

So, we both disagree about the game´s qualities but agree that it would benefit greatly from a good editor. No reason to become enemies over that, I suppose.

(Now where were we? What was it we were fighting about? :) )

so that would mean im right about everyone not being totally satisfied? even if only with the original air supiority bug and the editor? (im not after a im right u are wrong thing just sayin) i do understand and comprehend the fact that the majority of people posting here like the game but i honestly cant comprehend anyone thinking this game is perfect (and for that matter any game)
and i dissagree with firaxis doing enought with the latest release as civ1 laster 5 or so years, civ2 lasted the same and that is the quality i expect from sid and the civilization liniage. i DO have a high standard for my gaming pleasure and sid has always met that expectation, but not with this one :( (not YET that is ;))

yes ... peace treaty? and lets not make it like a hitler stalin non aggression treaty ;)
 
I have to agree with Troyen, especially on the AI and diplomacy features. You have to be kidding me if any of you think that the Diplomacy is anything short of disastrous. I give the game a 7 out of a 10, and although i still play it, I find myself quitting around the 1950s almost every game because the other civs (usually play with 6 other civs) keep coming around and settling on the one small bit of land that i dont cover and not only do they do that but they insult me at every turn. there is no way of trying to get along with the other civs, Iv'e given away tech/money/maps and I still would be attacked by the same civ that ive been good to for many a turn just because ive thretened them to get off my land..you think theyd have a better outllok on your relationship with them. I hate to say it but, i honestly do feel like the AI cheats. i can handle the unit upgrades and tech/food supply that they get, but the 'acts of war' for anything you try and do to protect your own borders is bs. I do not think you can win the game by diplomacy.
 
THARN, would it help if I posted my hall of fame? I've won several via diplomacy.

The AI doesn't cheat, it just plays by different rules to give the player a challenge.
 
Originally posted by Selous


so that would mean im right about everyone not being totally satisfied? even if only with the original air supiority bug and the editor?

Well of course not everyone is satisfied. That would be an impossibly high standard to hold the developers to. I know of no product, software or otherwise that everyone unanimously enjoys.

Everyone has different tastes. I think that resources and luxuries are a critical part of the game and I love the concept. I don't like the way that a democracy can be attacked but still suffer war weariness, there really isn't a historical precedent for that. But I love the game.

By your standard am I yet another dissatisfied customer?

Out of curiousity though, what don't you like about the editor? I think it is pretty thorough in it's options.
 
Originally posted by Selous


so that would mean im right about everyone not being totally satisfied? even if only with the original air supiority bug and the editor? (im not after a im right u are wrong thing just sayin) i do understand and comprehend the fact that the majority of people posting here like the game but i honestly cant comprehend anyone thinking this game is perfect (and for that matter any game)

I have never used any program that I have every been totally satisfied. And I don't think any else has either. However for what I got I am sufficiently satisfied to say that I made a good purchase, and it would appear the vast many of people here are in the same boat. Now this is not to say that we can't complain about things we don't like or we feel were done stupidly or make wish lists of improvements.

But at the end of the day we give the games a thumbs up and realize that we never will find a program that is perfect for us. Unless we make it ourselves
 
But at the end of the day we give the games a thumbs up and realize that we never will find a program that is perfect for us. Unless we make it ourselves


We can assume that Firaxis would prefer to please their buying customers instead of either ticking them off or disappointing them.
Few can ever say Civ 3 is as good as it COULD have been.

If this flawed game had been playtested then all the many complaints could have been addressed and corrected before marketing.

But Firaxis wanted it out in time for the Holiday buying season.

Hence, we get a rushed, flawed game that desn't even have a cheat mode or scenario-building. No doubt so they can sell us more scenario disks.

Even if some of the more puerile and easily-pleased gamers find it adequate, I assure you that Civ III won't have even 10% the "legs" of a true classic - Civ II. :mad:
 
Originally posted by Ironikinit
THARN, would it help if I posted my hall of fame? I've won several via diplomacy.

The AI doesn't cheat, it just plays by different rules to give the player a challenge.

:lol: :lol:

That is funny. Yea, "different rules". :D

I suppose when you play Chessmaster it is OK when the computer suddenly allows its rook to take pieces on the diagonal, or gives knights the movement power of a queen. . . just to give you a challenge!! :crazyeyes

Civ III is heavily stacked against the human what with a cheating, stubborn, stupid, crazy AI. The Diplomatic AI is especially bad.

I just love it when I am conquering some civ, and instead of building the military units it needs badly. . . it starts building a happiness Wonder! :rolleyes:
 
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