CIV5 - a disappointment so far...

Civ V great???
... because I just love being DOW'd on turn 20 as I'm finishing SCOUT > WORKER.
... scraping the coffers to come up with 2 more WARRIORs
... having my 3x WARRIORs, 1x SCOUT, and 1x WORKER
... steamrolled by 3x CHARIOTs, 4x WARRIORs, and 1x SCOUT on turn 28
... followed by a SWORDSMAN coming over the hill from 'the fog'. (insert spooky music)
Civ V ... great?
... not yet, needs some tweaks. 8)
You need to be nicer to your neighbors: offer them pacts of cooperation :) And if that fails, then you can't handle the difficulty your on :p
Lack of cottages on the other hand appears to be a real case of "Dumbing" down because it takes hard decisions and strategy away from the player.


I'm glad they made roads cost money now, very excellent addition to the game. They should have included cottages though. Not sure I get your reasoning on why towns are the dumber of the two? With your reasoning, trading posts and towns are equal when they are not. Your still going to figure out what your food production needs to be and your going to build the amount of trading posts and farms that you need. There is no difference in the need to change improvements between Civ 5 and Civ 4.

There are two reasons why towns are better:

1) If you had to re-work a town for whatever crazy reason it would be a tough choice, also maybe you can afford to do it. That's the choice, can you or can't you afford to do it and you have to weigh the upside or downside.

2) The most important reason is it makes the improvement valuable to you and a strategic tile to pillage while at war. It means you got to protect your towns and pillaging the enemies towns is so much more rewarding. It was the only thing in Civ 4 that brought armies into the field instead of sitting in cities. Isn't that exactly what Civ 5 is trying to do, bring battles into the field?

I agree with you regarding warfare in civ 5, I've enjoyed it.
I don't see how trading posts contribute to "dumbing down", anymore than having mines improve by technology (rather than growing like cottages) is dumbed down. I've found it harder to plan cities in CiV, mostly because cities need a lot more food than before to grow. You can still do the "average of 2 food per tile" planning, but later on you'll find that cities take dozens of turns to grow by one point, unless you buddy up with a lot of maritime city-states. In that way, I like trading posts better, because all cottages did was punish players for wanting to focus on commerce, a penalty that you didn't receive with production or food improvements. Now that commerce is gone, making cottages grow over time would be an unnecessary burden, that would just remove flexibility for those times when you need to build more farms to focus on city growth. The new combat system does plenty to make sure units are all over the battlefield: zones of control and choke points are extremely valuable. I don't know about you, but I still find capturing another civ's city far more rewarding that destroying an improvement: I rarely did it anyhow since I usually would annex cities anyhow (unless I was really pissed off with them, then I'd burn them to the ground :lol:)
 
I think it just seems simpler because we're not given near the level of complete information that a strategy game requires. No reliable way to tell the diplomatic situation at a glance (a huge problem for me since I often skip weeks between playing sessions and have no idea where I left off), no information on how much faster roads make you move or units cost, etc. The information that slipped through the cracks and got to us somehow is buried in multiple menus requiring multiple clicks per piece of info where Civ4 showed similar info onscreen at all times or just needed a mouseover.

On an unrelated note, I also miss all of the options that we had. I would especially like the options don't view enemy turns, quick movement, and quick combat.
 
I don't see how trading posts contribute to "dumbing down", anymore than having mines improve by technology (rather than growing like cottages) is dumbed down.

To some extent maybe, because moving growth to techs means any mine you build instantly is at its max output. If you have the techs, you don't have to wait anymore, so they're less of a strategic investment. Makes a lot more sense though than a new city starting out with small cottages in 2020.
 
Spamming cottages just about everywhere you can on resourceless spots isn't really hard decision making or coming up with a lot of strategy... You really need to think way more what improvements to build with maintenance biting you in the ass so much.

To maintain a large population (and thus science), you need a lot of food and happiness.
In Civilization IV, all you needed was ... food resources worked, ...

To maintain enough happiness, you need to pay a lot of maintenace for the buildings.
In Civilization IV, all you needed was ... a bit of production ...


To make enough money to cover the maintenance, you need to work trading posts instead of farms.
In Civilization IV, all you needed was ... just spam cottages. ...

And this goes on forever.
... There isn't much strategy or decision making involved here.
Spooky ... that is.


Spooky ... that is.

Oh please.

I'm beginning to doubt you actually played Civilization V at all.

In Civilization IV you just worked one or two food resources to support a big enough population, a mine or two to be able to construct the basic buildings you need and you just spammed the rest with cottages and never look back. That city got a pretty decent population and a massive science output with little trouble, decision making and adopting to changing circumstances.

In Civilization V food is the main factor for science output. However, having a high population across multiple cities will force your maintenance go crazy. This means you will have to sacrifice your science output potential (farms) in favour of just keeping your empire together ON THE GO. It's called adapting, and it makes for a much more involving economic game than just clicking some slider.
 
What a ridiculous thing to say. You're ugly. (not a flame, I mean how could I possibly know you're ugly without meeting you?)

And the demo is to see if you can run the game, you can't possibly ascertain how good and or complex the full game is in a time and feature limited demo. And if you're going off comments in this forum, then there are two opposing arguments on that issue and you shouldn't suppose you'd fall into one camp or the other.

You know if you want to flame me, just do it, why don't you ...

Of course I played it. Extensively. A friend bought it and after he was done with it (read: after two long games he was so frustrated, he basically forced me to take it ^^), I borrowed it ... steam was just a minor obstacle anyway for someone who didn't have it installed until three days ago ...

There were two or three promising features, but overall the game disappointed because almost nothing is thought through, everything is half-assed and many features have been removed instead of refined.

But then again, the last game I bought almost two years ago, it seems games developed today are for the masses, for those that play a game - even one like Civ5 - maybe one or two months before discarding it!

Moderator Action: Profane word removed. Please watch your language, swearing is not allowed on these forums
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
I totally agree with the OP and mainly with the fact certain "flawed" concept were removed instead of being fixed .

Added to that quite a lot of new concepts are implemented way too simplistically (city-states and happiness ) .

And finally i still feel like the game has lost an "empire" feeling . There should be an option where you can decide to alter the production speed . (the science speed is simply too fast compared to production speed) .

I would have preferred Civ V to be a fixed BTS with hexes, city states and the new combat system . Now we got a stripped down Civ IV with hexes, city states and new combat system. Disappointing.
 
I'm a bit disappointed too. It's a good game, but for me it comes clearer and clearer that it simply isn't nearly as good as Civ4.

Empire growth management (by leveraging happiness and gold) seems as complex as it was in Civ4. It's just not well balanced, as strategies like this are viable/needed: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=382812.

Almost everything else is simplified. While I don't miss health per se, it's quite boring that there is only one type of luxury resource in game. Special tiles and tile improvements are weaker and simplified and so are the uses of the Great People. Diplomacy is horribly simplified. There are now three stages of international relations: normal, hostile, war. Research agreement is a poor substitute for tech trading.

Managing city states is extremely straight forward - pay cash and execute some simple tasks (third option, gifting units, seems too weak to be useful). You can't even trade resources with them. I can't understand how some people see them as a great feature. They are extremely powerful (maybe unbalanced) feature inside a game, but that is whole different thing than being a great new feature.

Social policies are somewhat interesting. 1UPT combat is the by far the best thing in this game and probably only thing that has been clearly improved from Civ4. Too bad this improvement is partly nullified by incompetent AI and clumsy interface.
 
There were two or three promising features, but overall the game disappointed because almost nothing is thought through, everything is half-assed and many features have been removed instead of refined.
(Emphasis mine)

Do you have any examples or is it just hyperbole?

But then again, the last game I bought almost two years ago, it seems games developed today are for the masses, for those that play a game - even one like Civ5 - maybe one or two months before discarding it!

Yes, games are developed for the masses. They cost $millions to make and game developers are not charities. You can't make a $5m game that appeals to only a few thousand people. (Whether people who buy the game play it for a month or several years...well, that's up to them.) The trick is making a game that's easy for a novice to learn but takes years to master; that doesn't make it a simple game though (Chess is probably the perfect example of this).
 
Or how about in CivIV, when you had a resource on a one-tile pennisula that was blocked by a mountain: it happened to me once and it annoyed the hell out of me. It was in my cultural borders and I would never be able to access it, since I couldn't connect it by road to any city.

That's what forts were for. Though only after an expansion...

I think you need to play the game more on this point: you can control it nearly as much as before, there's just no more artificial sliders that force you to choose between gold or science (or culture). If you want a city to be more focused on science: build a library there. It's a 50% increase, so is a university. Also, you can direct Great Scientists to build their academy improvement on one of that city's tiles: 5 more beakers there. The sliders were goofy and I don't miss them at all, they were very lazy too (which no one ever seems to mention). Now, when you want to focus on gold, you actually have to put some effort into: build improvements, focus on gold buildings, disband unnecessary units. Before, you could just ratchet down the research slider. Kinda dumb.

Not sure if those are equivalent. By those standards there were buildings for boosting both Gold and Science in cIV; the equivalent of slider changing, as an instant adjustment, would rather be clicking through every City checking "Gold Focus"...
 
Almost everything else is simplified. While I don't miss health per se, it's quite boring that there is only one type of luxury resource in game.

Incorrect, e.g. marble gives a bonus to wonder production, different buildings have bonuses for different types of resources nearby, e.g. the mint for gold and silver or the monastery for incense and wine.

Special tiles and tile improvements are weaker and simplified

Tile yields in general are weaker, but the only improvement that was simplified is the cottage. Which was mostly abused and base of the easiest and most viable economy in Civ IV.

and so are the uses of the Great People.

What? They can trigger golden ages, build a specific improvement (in Civ IV, they created a super specialist instead), and do one special ability.

Diplomacy is horribly simplified. There are now three stages of international relations: normal, hostile, war.

It's not simplified just because it tells you less details.

Research agreement is a poor substitute for tech trading.

How so? Tech trading usually just equalizes all civs' techs, making the game much more simple (and in some cases, easier).

Managing city states is extremely straight forward - pay cash and execute some simple tasks (third option, gifting units, seems too weak to be useful).

Yes. They are meant as a game mechanic that adds to diplomacy. If you just annex them, then you will not get any benefit out of them. If you fight over them with the other AIs, or maybe just pay them more than their previous ally and see what that former ally has to say about it, they're more interesting.

The gift units are useful btw., just not as much as the other bonuses by far, unless you have very little standing military.

Too bad this improvement is partly nullified by incompetent AI and clumsy interface.

That's unfortunate indeed. I can understand why they would have wanted an easier interface, but as good as that idea may have seemed on paper, it doesn't work if you just leave out half of the information that we are used to getting...
 
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Oh and it has a nicer graphics engine, for all those 13-year-old kiddies that need up-to-date graphics. Good job on not improving anything else, at least it's shiny!

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but that argument is getting really old and quite frankly rather tiresome. You do know that there are some of us that prefer nice graphics AND good gameplay right? Is not a question of if I have this I can't have that. If they released a new Civ game that looked like it was drawn in Paint I wouldn't buy it.
 
:agree: The threads complaining that rivers are ugly, that trading posts look stupid and that the clouds are "too hexagonal" seems to show that most people do value graphics. Although by the sound of it, some people would like to go back to civ1 graphics :old:
 
Sometimes less is more. That's definitely the case in Civ V. I'll be playing this a lot. :)
 
Suggestion: To enjoy Civ5, don't play on Warchief (or w/e the lowest difficulty is called again).
While playing, you won't miss religion. While playing, you notice that empire wide happiness is actually harder than single city happiness, and that you'll really need to focus on keeping your empire happy. When you can't pump up 10 infantry per turn every turn when you reach the tech, you won't send them to be slaughtered anymore. You will value the units more. Please, play the game for 10h+ before ranting, as you'll notice the good things and you'll really know how the game is played.

Notice, that the game isn't called ''Civilization 4 and it's expansions +1'' but ''Civilization 5''.

Like the things in Civ4? Go play it then, don't be disappointed that they didn't just copy+paste the aspects of civ4 to a new engine. I sure as hell wouldn't have bought another Civ4, so I'm glad that they made a new civ game.

P.S: You have no right to judge the game until you've clocked more than 10 hours with it. If you are still trying to judge the book by it's ignorant ranters, you're a lost cause and should be banned from all the internets.
 
I agree with most of what OP said.

But you know what. I felt the same way when Civ4 was released. And rightfully so. Especially about "everything having much less impact". I.e. Civ4 wonders cannot hold a candle for Civ3 wonders.

The problem here is, that they changed basically everything. It's only wise to release dumbed down game first, to see how balance and other things works, what needs fix, what needs tuning, etc. And only then they can add more content. As was with BtS and to a lesser extent - Warlords. (Hey, Warlords added Unique Buildings right).

So while I am a little bit disappointed I kinda see the reasons behind it and I remain optimistic. This game as is has a lot of potential and I bet after an expansion or two it will be far far better than Civ4. Which is not easy to do, because Civ4 is already an exceptionally good game even with all these bugs and balance issues it had.

P.S: You have no right to judge the game until you've clocked more than 10 hours with it.
Now this may seem harsh but actually it's a very valid point. And I'd say 10 h is far from enough. Building up on my example with Civ4 realease. I still remember how players cried back then about rapid expansion being impossible, wonders dumbed down, everything generally wrong. Some issues were real but some others were a direct result of the lack of skill. If you do the search you can still find a few tutorials which advocate for doing silly things. Back then they probably looked sensibly, but what I'm trying to say, as we learn to play we will see this game in a different light. No need for premature cries.
 
I've clocked up about 25 hours and still don't feel qualified to comment on game balance or anything like that.
 
Sometimes less is more. That's definitely the case in Civ V. I'll be playing this a lot. :)

Maybe that's the great divide. When it comes to Civ -- I'm of the completely opposite mind. Less is always just less. If something doesn't work - espionage, religion, governments, whatever - fix it, replace it, tweak it, but never ditch it.

For me, the height of the Civilization series remain the most excellent RoM/AND mods... you got literally BURIED in options -- in Civ 5, it's not realistic to build "everything" in any city because the game mechanics limit you. In RoM/AND - it's not possible to build "everything" because there's just so much to build, you'd never be able to do it.

I'd rather be faced with the latter than the former -- yes -- it should be a 'decision', but I prefer my decisions to be based on a too broad menu rather than a tiny menu where everything has an exorbitant cost.... that's boutique gameplay, not grand, superstore strategic gameplay.
 
This is another "rant" kind of post. It will be long. But I am hoping to get some answers (real ones, not abuse) - am I being too pessimistic, am I missing something here or is the game really been simplified so much that it won't be able to reach the complexity of civ4 even when patched and improved? Are there simplifications and flaws in the design or am I just not seeing the genius here?

I think this is a common problem many people are having. People see that many of the strategies and options from CivIV were removed and then they think everything was dumbed down. What they fail to see are all the new strategies that were opened up. There are a number of new additions that are incredibly complex, even if they seem simple at first glance.

The removed stuff - generally - well, I understand that some options were easy to exploit - but why remove them instead of fixing them? Some were simplified - why not make them complex? Even if flawed, they added another dimensions to the strategy you needed to employ - if they are not fixed, tuned or replaced, the game becomes simplified.

There is one thing you have to realize, you are comparing a new game to a game that had several years of refinement and expansions. There are only so many development resources available to make the game and they can't add everything at once without half-assing them. Its much better to have fewer, well thought out features now and add more later through expansions (as they did with CivIV) than to have lots of features that barely function and are completely imbalanced. If you can't get a feature working it is much better to cut it and come back to it later than to release it in a crappy state. Despite what some people seem to think they did add a ton to the game, which means some things had to be cut.

- Cottages. What was wrong with them? IMO it was one of the most inventive additions to the game since civ1. In another thread someone complained that in latter stages of the game he had to defend towns cause they were hard to rebuild after being pillaged - now that's why they added to the complexity. I rather expected more terrain improvements to grow after being used by the city, that would a natural decision. Now from what I can guess by playing the demo, they stay the same for entire game.

- science now is down to pop mostly. How can I influence the science output significantly? OK, it may be "realistic" to say you can never FORCE a nation to suddenly become a source of new ideas and technologies, but this is not a real life sim, it is a strategy game, in which all aspects should be controllable, but always at a cost, ie more science = less food/gold/happiness/tanks whatever. Just let me control it even indirectly.

I combined these 2 because they really go together.

The problem was that in CivIV towns were too good at too many things. They gave science, gold, culture, and later on even some production. Because of the slider and its ability to instantly adapt to whatever situation you were in your decisions didn't really have many consequences. In the vast majority of your cities all you needed was enough food to work the cottages and the cottages did everything else for you if you used the slider properly.

Decoupling gold and science and removing the slider in CiV are huge changes, but its not dumbing down. You still have the ability to control your science and gold output, just not instantly due to the slider (I'll admit culture output is harder to control). You have to plan ahead and the decisions you make have consequences. If you want more science then you need more farms, which means you have to sacrifice gold production because you have fewer trading posts (or mines/lumber mills for production). So yes, more science does in fact mean less gold/happiness/tanks/etc. This becomes a balancing act and increases the number of strategic options available, rather than just having one awesome improvement that does everything.

Finally, the point about improvements growing with time or not is again not dumbing anything down. Cottages growing adds even more to your decisions having consequences, while trading posts not growing allows for more flexibility for changing situations. These are both very good things in a strategy game. The key is to find a balance between them. I suspect that because they removed the crazy amount of flexibility given by the slider they had to add some back in by not having improvements grow over time. Again, this is not dumbing down, its about finding the right balance between flexibility and consequences.

- religion - again, added a lot of options, a lot of choices, like building temples in cities that wouldn't otherwise need them at the time, to help another city's culture by allowing a cathedral. I agree this was almost a one way road (ie the more religion(s) in your cities the better) and had too much influence on AI diplo - but it was easy to change. Why not? Now we're back to just constructing "a temple". Cool.

Religion was simply a mechanic for diplomacy. A method for creating alliances and enemies. Not a very good one either. Diplomacy was reworked to use pacts of cooperation/secrecy instead of religion. Its just a different mechanic, which I think the jury is still out on. I will admit it would be nice to be able to see under the hood a bit more though (not being able to see the modifiers doesn't make it dumbed down though, just harder to learn and game the system).

Also, being able to build a building in one city to help another is still very much present, just not based on religion any more. For example, you could easily build a circus in one city to allow another city to grow. Options were not removed, just shifted around.

- health - another thing that allowed to tie a lot of aspects of the game. A simple growth factor to that led to infinite options. Allowed to represent the influence of industrial development or unhealthy surroundings or having access to many/too few food sources. The more advanced you were, the more use you had of the food resources (granaries/groceries), but the bigger your empire, the more of the resources you had and the again there was diplomacy and gaining resources from other players. Removing health just deleted a whole dimension from the strategy. Please tell me, what do we have in exchange? And no, social policies and better combat is not an answer.

What we have in exchange is additional strategies. The combination of removing health and moving happiness to empire wide opened up a ton of options and decision points not present in CivIV. If you make happiness civ-wide and still have a cap on individual city population is basically removes the benefits of making happiness civ-wide. This is why health had to be removed. More on this in the happiness section.

- not having to connect a resource to the city to be able to use it? Really? I haven't played that much but does it mean that if I build a city 15 hexes away from any settlement with no road and sea access, it will be able to use all of my strategic resources? And if that city has a strat. resource, I can use it on another continent? Thsi point may be down to me not having a full game.

This is a sacrifice that was made to remove the silly spider web of roads that plagued CivIV. Now think of your roads as major highways for quick access between cities and other strategic locations.

The real reason for this though is with 1UPT roads absolutely had to be expensive and less common. Otherwise the defender would have an insurmountable advantage in warfare. Imagine trying to fight in a 1UPT environment against someone who has a CivIV-like road network. The mobility their roads (and railroads) would give them to flank and encircle you would make it futile. So in order to account for the incredible complexity of adding the 1UPT system connecting a resource had to be simplified. However, this is really a net gain overall, making the game more complex, not less so.

- espionage - I never liked it in civ4, I thought it was a rushed and simplified addition but it was there as an option, as a strategy choice. It needed improving not removing. What is there in civ5 instead? As I said, I do not know civ5 extremely well so maybe I miss something there.

Here you are comparing bast game + expansions to just a base game. Espionage was not in the original CivIV. I wouldn't be surprised to see it added in an expansion for CiV too.

- generally, I have a feeling that almost everything was tuned down to have less influence. Resources do not increase output of the tiles as much as they used to (and there are a lot more of them), wonders do not seem to be so powerful, teh same goes for city buildings and after building a pasture on a tile with cattle I gained one hammer. Is it intentional? For me, it just means every choice I make is less important. Getting THAT resource before other do, building THAT wonder before others do was always something that drove me, that was worth investing in and made the challenge fascinating. Now it seems like everything just grows/develops at a similar tempo no matter what I do. Like I said in "health" paragraph - it was great for the strategy, that with time it became more and more important to have that resource, that holy city as bonuses were accumulating.

The difference is there are lots more of them. Instead of having that one super tile with cows on it you will likely have several slightly improved tiles. The net effect is the same. There is still plenty of incentive to rush for specific tiles before your opponents. In fact, with the change to strategic resources it can be even more important. Who cares if you lose an iron tile to someone in CivIV as long as you have one somewhere else? This is not the case in CiV.

Also, wonders are extremely powerful. Some might not appear to be at first glance, but when you play the game you see that they are. For example, the +8 culture from Stonehenge doesn't sound like much, but it can be a very big deal.

- corruption - where is it? I haven't investigated this too much, but from what I saw the distance between cities plays no role in the maintenance now. Or in their production effectiveness. If that's true, it is another huge simplification.

Here I agree with you. Not quite sure why they took this out.

- happiness is now empire wide. I read the arguments for it and I don't agree with them. The way I understand it, it simply replaced number of cities maintenance cost as a growth limit (while probably omitting the distance factor) - so it is not NEW, BETTER, it is simplified again. Someone claimed it means you need to use diplomacy and economy to manage the "new" happiness. Ermm... and in civ4 you didn't have to??? (my last BTS game for most of the time I spent a huge portion of my income on acquiring lux resources from other civs as I didn't have them in my territory and I had to be nice to some nasty neighbours). Now supposedly the city specific happiness was a bad thing. Was it? Firstly, there WAS an empire wide happiness factor (war weariness). Secondly, as there WAS (now absent I guess) an empire wide growth limiting factor (maintenance cost+health in general), the city specific happiness was ANOTHER NOW ABSENT factor in the game! It limited a super growth of a specific city (usually the capital) - how many times have I been forced into choose: go for Monarchy and her. rule to let my capital grow packed with warriors OR choose some other more needed tech (or get an extra religion AND not allow an enemy to have a holy city - another now removed strategical factor). So, what replaced it?

Here's the big one. Happiness civ-wide is not at all simplified, in many ways its far more complex. It adds all sorts of new options and decisions to the game. Now instead of simply growing every city up to its happiness cap you actually have to decide how you want to allocate your citizens. Do you even out your population among your cities? Do you marginalize some cities to allow you to have a couple of maga-cities? Do you have your unit producing cities stop producing units for a time and build happiness structures so your other cities can grow even more? How do you balance unhappiness from the number of cities with population for optimum results? All I can say is if you think this is simply to replace maintenance cost as a number of cities growth limit then you really don't fully understand the mechanic. It combined many mechanics into one. On the surface it looks simple, but in reality it is extremely complex.

Here's a simple comparison. In CivIV, every time you placed a new city you increased your civ's total population cap. No matter where you placed it, you always got at least 4 more added to your cap. Once the city was placed there was no cost for growing it to said cap either. Just give it time and it will get there. All you had to pay for was the maintenance cost of the city. Now in CiV, every time you place a new city it actually lowers your civ's total population cap. Plus every additional population you decide to allow there is at the expense of one somewhere else. You still have to pay "maintenance" for the city itself, just not in the form of gold, in the form of lowering your total population cap. However, you can, if you choose to, build a happiness building in that city. By doing that you are then paying for the city with gold like you did in CivIV. You can even build more happiness buildings in this city to allow your other cities to grow if you wish. It sounds to me like CiV's version has more options and more complexity, not less.

- social policies - a lot has been said about them. I just like to add that I always thought there should be two things in the game: a civ's social values AND (as a separate thing) political/government choices. The first should not be a subject of player's free decision, rather reflect his general play - ie if he goes to war early, his society should become "warlike", if he builds cottages etc, they should become merchants. These settings should be very hard to change during gameplay. On the other hand, the political choices should be almost free to choose, just like the civics system worked. Now the policies system seems to be none of the above, just acts like an "extra tech tree" with the only difference being that you will never research all the "policies". Nice idea, but as an addition to "social values" and especially to civics options, otherwise, another strange simplification.

While your idea sounds interesting, nothing like what you suggest here has been in any Civ game. So I don't know how it can be a simplification to something that never existed. SPs are certainly no more simple than civics in CivIV. If you preferred civics to SPs, that's fine, but its not a simplification. Personally I'm not sure which i like more. I like that SPs give culture a more interesting role in the game. However I also liked the flexibility of civics.


Like I said at the beginning, I really think you are having the same problem that many others are before getting to really know the game. You only see the places where your options and strategies from CivIV were limited and not seeing where they have been opened up. CiV is an incredibly complex game.
 
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