civ5 - to limit the number of military units

[V. Soma]

I would like to devote a topic for this.
I guess civ5 should have to handle the problem of having:

A: war as a too simple way for victory
B: too many military units in the game, especially the later part…

So, in this topic I wish we could come up with ideas on
how to limit the number of military units…

My idea: Military units tied to military city specialists

A certain specialist could allow a certain amount of military units alive:

This means you have to take one city population off from the tiles and make it
a military specialist, this would allow a given number of units that are “made” by the city.
(you could follow tracks on city screen and advisor screens)

This would mean that:
a) you have to make decisions: more of food/hammer/gold or military?
b) number of available units are limited…

Naturally, all this must be carefully planned for civ5 so the game is balanced,
but I guess this could work…

We could have this more developed:
Different kinds of military specialists: land/navy/air…
Wonders/civics/traits could have effect on what a specialist can give…
Etc.

Any more ideas?

 

[exhile]

A computer AI that has 360 units (7 lines on 1920x1200) vs 150 units (3 lines on 1920x1200) of my own is a bit much. What numerical or unit type of restrictions do you have in mind?

I like the military city specialist for military units on a tile.

 

[V. Soma]

I like the military city specialist for military units on a tile.

Aha, so you mean the specialist could be a movable unit itself
that "carries" the possibility of a given number of own units on a tile?
Like a general or something?

I kind of like it - but is this necessary? I am just thinking...

 

[Scilly_guy]

NO NO NO, well thats not what I understood he meant, like in a city you can make workers work in the city (Spies, Engineers, Merchants, Scientists, Artists, Priests). A New division would be Military Leader, and they would allow you to build another 10,15,however many units. I like it, I don't think the current system of cost is enough deterrent.

 

[V. Soma]

I understood he meant, like in a city you can make workers work in the city (Spies, Engineers, Merchants, Scientists, Artists, Priests). A New division would be Military Leader, and they would allow you to build another 10,15,however many units.

Yes, this is what I meant

 

[rysmiel]

I would like to devote a topic for this.
I guess civ5 should have to handle the problem of having:

A: war as a too simple way for victory
B: too many military units in the game, especially the later part

This is pretty much exactly the approach to things genuinely wrong with Civ 3 that led to most of the things I don't like about Civ 4, and indeed, in the direction of the approach to things genuinely wrong with Civ 2 that led to a few things I dislike about Civ 3.

War being too easy a victory is, IMO, a problem with every existing version of Civ. Arbitrarily limiting the number of military units.

The way I would prefer to see Civ 5 handle war being too easy is to make other ways of winning stronger and better capable of defeating military power. Re-enable the diplomat/spy unit bribing function* from Civ 1/2 so that somebody who puts all their money into building armies can have them bribed away by someone who keeps all their money in cash. Make culture able to convert units that if some bunch of raggedy Aztecs who have built up a pile of military units send them to attack the glorious metropolis of Babylon. the Aztecs realise they'd have better lives working for Babylon and promptly desert. That kind of thing.

I would very much prefer that it not be impossible to send three hundred tanks thundering across a late-game continent. I just want it to be really difficult, and a real achievement, that needs not only a military industrial complex, but also a thorough dedication to building enough culture to keep them.

*Actually, I think what that needs to make it work is to let you know when someone tries to bribe a unit or city of yours, and give you options to counterbribe or let it go. Keeps the advantage to builidng up pots of money, but stops it coming out of nowhere and not having a countermove.

 

[Scilly_guy]

I think the addition of assassination units/sabotaging units as spies missions would help. Also with the idea of Military leaders adding space for units, you could have buildings and wonders that allow for extra units, although this adds to the "strong get stronger" line of thought. The more cities the more units, how do you get more cities, by attacking. However they do it, I think it needs to be done.

 

[V. Soma]

I think limiting the number of units can be positive in effect:

- the importance of individual battles grow: excitement of "historical battles"
- there is a room for chance: one with less military can win or stay alive
- the game is not slowing down in play and performance in the later part

 

[vsipinen]

In my opinion "building" (and especially losing) many military units should have very strong and clear negative impact to population. After all when the military units are lost (in real life) people die, and that should be clearly reflected in the game. The size of the population should in some point limit the size of the military.

 

[V. Soma]

In my opinion "building" (and especially losing) many military units should have very strong and clear negative impact to population. After all when the military units are lost (in real life) people die, and that should be clearly reflected in the game. The size of the population should in some point limit the size of the military.

OK

Let's say a city military specialist allows 3 military units (e.g. those that can attack). This city builds these units, more with more such specialists.

rules:

1. specialist must stay in "office"

As long as you have the units alive for a specialist (e.g. if you have 4 alive untis with 2 specialists), you cannot "swap" the specialists back to workers on the fields.

2. loss of unit contingent means population loss

For every 3 military units that were "made" in the city AND died in bottle,
one military specialist is removed forever and NOT given back to the city as worker.
That is: the city loses one population point for every 3 of its units lost...

 

[Naokaukodem]

A good thing could be to delete 1 pop for every new army unit created.

That would make the upgrades more strategic.

EDIT: that would also make granaries a lot more valuable, a killer-advantage as soon as ancient era.

 

[V. Soma]

A good thing could be to delete 1 pop for every new army unit created.

What do you mean for "army unit"? (thinking in civ4 terms)

 

[Naokaukodem]

What do you mean for "army unit"? (thinking in civ4 terms)

Sorry I badly expressed here, by "army unit" i mean military unit, not that i don't want armies to show up. (armies in the sense of a organized super-unit with melees, archers and artillery each one giving particular bonuses making each army different with different kind of battles*)

*EDIT: like in Civilization Revolution if what i heard is right.

 

[V. Soma]

aham, so delete 1 pop for every military unit?

Well, hm, it COULD work, but it depends on redesigning tile production - that is, balance...

And besides this, would you keep the limit-by-specialist idea, too?

 

[Naokaukodem]

aham, so delete 1 pop for every military unit?

Well, hm, it COULD work, but it depends on redesigning tile production - that is, balance...

Why redesigning tile production? I think this system would be perfect with Civ4.

And besides this, would you keep the limit-by-specialist idea, too?

Hmm i don't know. I barely rarely use specialists. I think i would be worried if i had to put specialists to have military units, because that would be a high brake to growth. Ok, that would be a counter balance, like you have to choose between growth or army, but i don't want to be in the case of my civ growing when there is another who don't and invade me.

 

[V. Soma]

Why redesigning tile production? I think this system would be perfect with Civ4.

I simple meant that perhaps tile production values have to be changed

i don't want to be in the case of my civ growing when there is another who don't and invade me.

Well, well, you have to prepare, for defense, too

 

[rysmiel]

I think limiting the number of units can be positive in effect:

- the importance of individual battles grow: excitement of "historical battles"
- there is a room for chance: one with less military can win or stay alive
- the game is not slowing down in play and performance in the later part

Your first point does not strike me as particularly positive; your second seems actively negative, and your third is solving something I have not ever felt was really a problem.

 

[Naokaukodem]

I simple meant that perhaps tile production values have to be changed

Yes and i understood you.

Well, well, you have to prepare, for defense, too

The thing is that with such a system, growth will always be penalized.

/With military specialists, what happens when you disable them?

 

[Walkin]

I think there should be a recruitment value. When monarch etc you can recruit all your population into an army as they're only a bunch of clod-loving serfs. However in modern times (democracy) you must entice people into the army; through higher pay, advertising campaigns and a positive image for your military.

Your ability to raise an army should also depend upon how much you hate your enemy / how much danger you are in... That makes conscription a powerful civic.

As for a max army population; maybe do that through really high upkeep or war weariness. I agree though that the results of many civilians/military dead should inflame your civilians to either action/fear.

 

[Rusty Edge]

So this specialist is called what, a quartermaster? A logistics specialist? A military administrator? a strategist?

It sounds to me as if it would serve your purposes. Would it actually produce a quantity of something to be represented as an icon - (swords or shields perhaps ) and then be treated like output from any other specialist with modifying and multiplying buildings and wonders? Or civic penalties and multipliers? Would there be a tech that allows you to convert production to swords the way that you can build culture or research?