[GS] Civ6 Deity AI Vs. Civ5 Deity AI.

[Fluphen Azine]

I enjoy the loyalty mechanic but I think it ruined the AI.
Sure it can slow down the player but the AI doesn't roll other AIs like in Civ V.
This thread is making me nostalgic for Civ V and I haven't played it since Civ VI came out.
Even though Civ IV is the better game, I haven't played it since Civ V came out.
I notice a trend here.

 

[fantsu]

Winning on deity in 5 was super easy when it released. The game was broken beyond imagination. Dont know how it went, but I think they fixed it somehow with the expansions, I didnt play it afterwards, as I never won on deity on civ 4, despite after years of practice.
Havent even tried deity yet on 6, playing on emperor and enjoying it too much. Comparing vanilla 1.0 civ V to VI with all the expansions would not be fair, so I dont go in there.

 

[Vahnstad]

Just won a diplo deity victory with Sumeria. If it wasn't for diplo, it would have been an easy science victory. I first aimed for domination victory but I never started a war. It's my first deity victory. I guess i can join the club. I can beat deity on civ vi. The highest victory i had on civ 5 was on king difficulty with China.

In civ v i did beat the game as Egypt, Rome and China.
In civ vi i did beat the game as Germany, Sumeria, China, Rome, America, Indonesia, France (Eleonore) and the Inca. I have yet to win a religious victory and since I never pursued a religion, i actually have to learn those mechanics. I don't think i've ever had a religion.

And ironically this is the first time i won a civ 6 game without declaring war which is quite an achievement. Have never played this tall before.

 

[Bangau]

I've played all the civ versions, even civ I when I was a kid. In my experience the CIV VI AI is the weakest.

 

[Tiberiu]

I've played all the civ versions, even civ I when I was a kid. In my experience the CIV VI AI is the weakest.

Wow, really? Even weaker than Civ Beyond Earth? I thought it couldn't get worse than that.

 

[Bangau]

Wow, really? Even weaker than Civ Beyond Earth? I thought it couldn't get worse than that.

Ok, to be honest I did not play ALL versions, the fantasy/scifi versions never did it for me. I meant I, II, III, IV, V and VI. I was quite young playing I and II, and it's a long time ago, so couldn't honestly judge how hard it was. But in my memory they were quite hard to beat on higher difficulty, played a lot of III and IV and never managed to beat deity I think. Played thousands of hours of V, mostly on emperor (which I found enough of a challenge for a long time), before I took on the challenge of beating deity. Took me a while but V was the first version I managed to do it. I've always started new civ games on the easiest difficulty and went up if I thought it to easy. In VI I did difficulty 1-->2-->3-->4-->5-->6-->7, have maybe done a few 7's and then straight to 8 (deity). I watched a lot of YT and read a lot on Civ Fanatics, much more than I used to do before when playing V and earlier, so there's that. Still I'm convinced that VI is the easiest of them all. Mind you: with all the great concepts it has, I still think it's the most fun. Sometimes I feel like playing IV again, but looking at it I lose the motivation to do so. Some things were great, but I'd miss so much that VI has to offer.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Civ1, Civ2 and Civ3 play the same way, with expanding, expanding, expanding early. It's due to corruption obviously. Once you understood that (and the passivity of the AI on their homes), they are pretty easy in Deity. I was surprised to win in Deity in Civ2, so much that i had to double-check the difficulty level. Civ3 was a bit harder, to the point it was tedious with all those units especially artillery. The meta was less obvious in Civ4 IMO, and in the following iterations as well. I don't know, maybe i've not watched enough youtube for that one. Currently I'm playing an Immortal game, that's a LOT more easier than Deity, eventhough i've been declared early by two civs.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

the AI doesn't roll other AIs like in Civ V.
This thread is making me nostalgic for Civ V and I haven't played it since Civ VI came out.

agree on all points. the AI never really "gets big" anymore. I remember in Civ 5 an unchecked Zulu/Mongolia could actually eat up two or three neighbors and become a legit threat. Nothing like that has ever happened to me in 6. I get nostalgic for Civ 5 in many ways, honestly. some things were just done much better. Specialists and Great People were much better, imo, I hate how Prophets work now. The GPP that you rack up are literally useless after you get your religion, for the remaining 100 turns. At least have them exist and give a relic or something. I really liked specialists tile improvements.

I've played all the civ versions, even civ I when I was a kid. In my experience the CIV VI AI is the weakest.

yeah, I agree, though I haven't played nearly as many Civ games as you. It's not just the weakest in terms of posing a threat (it doesn't), it's also the easiest to exploit. The AI in Civ 6 feels like it only exists in order to help the player out when they're out of gold or need someone to send a trade route to, essentially like bigger city states, not like opponents.

 

[RealHuhn]

You cannot compare sth that not exists.
civ6 AI does not exist.

I needed 3 years to win deity civ4 (India)
I needed 3 months to win deity civ5 (Inca)
I needed 3 games to win deity civ6 (Japan)

I think a big portion of this is just natural progression. Obviously, after thousands of hours, you get better at beating a Deity AI, no matter which title you play.

Anyway, I wish Firaxis would release modding tools. The whole siege units vs city walls dynamic in CIV 6 isn't working. It's too complicated for an AI in 2020. If cities were more vulnerable, declarations of war would actually mean something like in the early game. That's the main reason, besides chopping, why the AI feels weaker in 6 I think.

Other than that, I like many aspects of the AI like expansion rate, city placement, tile improvements, wonders, personality etc. I'm also glad the unit spam of CIV 5 Deity is gone. Wow, that was so annoying to see every tile occupied by a military unit. I refused to go to war after the mid game because it felt like a giant waste of time. Armies and corps work a lot better in 6.

 

[Bangau]

yeah, I agree, though I haven't played nearly as many Civ games as you. It's not just the weakest in terms of posing a threat (it doesn't), it's also the easiest to exploit. The AI in Civ 6 feels like it only exists in order to help the player out when they're out of gold or need someone to send a trade route to, essentially like bigger city states, not like opponents.

Yep. CIV VI AI is designed to be a hurdle on the road to the player's victory, not a competitor for it. Crazy how it's still fun. Although: what game AI isn't? Not many games have advanced AI build in to k*ck the **** out of the human player. In the end most players want to become the champion, the god, the winner... in virtual life that is,... don't see many people in real life aiming to be a superstar.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I wouldn't say deity in Civ VI is a pain in the ass. Early game is important. If you manage to conquer one or two of your neighbors the game snowball you to the end. Maybe it's better to choose 8 civs rather than 6 to keep enemies closer to conquer.

 

[Sostratus]

Anyway, I wish Firaxis would release modding tools. The whole siege units vs city walls dynamic in CIV 6 isn't working. It's too complicated for an AI in 2020. If cities were more vulnerable, declarations of war would actually mean something like in the early game. That's the main reason, besides chopping, why the AI feels weaker in 6 I think.

The lack of DLLs does inhibit a lot of modding, but there's a lot we can do. Wall resistance, for example, is defined in the table "global parameters":

COMBAT_DEFENSE_DAMAGE_PERCENT_BOMBARD = 100
COMBAT_DEFENSE_DAMAGE_PERCENT_MELEE = 15
COMBAT_DEFENSE_DAMAGE_PERCENT_RANGED = 50

Along with all the other stuff that affects city strength.
Changing some of these numbers - particularly the melee resistance on walls - would make the Ai much better at taking cities.

Now, I don't know if we can do stuff like like give each level of wall different resistances, etc. That might still be locked away.

 

[Casworon]

It is a bit of a bandaid. But i have noticed the difficulty is harder when starting a LAN game with you as the only player and manually changing the difficulties of the AI.

For example for a standard eight player game, you can set one AI to Deity, three to emperor, three to king.

This actually makes a harder game than simply having all the AI as deity since if the deity AI starts on the other continent to you it can snowball to a small degree, It still seems to struggle at snowballing compared to some older civ versions, but it can snowball enough to offer more of a challenge. One snowballing Deity AI being more of a challenge than seven that just bounce off each other.

The weakness of this, is that if you are well practiced at early war against deity level AI, then you can still engage in early war and obliterate all the other Civs on your continent.

What would be cool is some kind of system that allows there to be a 'chosen' AI that spawns the furthest away from you, that gets some sort of combat bonus against the other AI allowing it to snowball to offer some challenge in the mid and late game. Being an optional toggle of some kind.

Weakening the strength of walls in the game would allow other AI to snowball better, but it has the disadvantage of making invading and conquering even easier.

Maybe it would be possible to have some script that gives the AI only, and only the AI, a strength bonus against cities. Making their invasions deadlier, and also encouraging them to snowball more. Alternatively you could make it so it only effects AI vs AI engagements, so it doesn't effect the game for you as a player playing, apart from just having some stronger more snowbally AI to fight against.

Now it's looking likely that the DLL isn't coming it's time to start thinking of ways we can improve the AI's performance without having access to its coding.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Other than that, I like many aspects of the AI like tile improvements

wait, the AI improves tiles in Civ 6? never seen that before.

oh wait, silly me. of course the AI builds improvements. the bestest of improvements only. like these revolutionary horse-farms. can't tell me that wasn't a clever move!

 

[Tiberiu]

There is another bandaid that I sometimes use, maybe other people can try it. It's just setting some self-enforced handicap "rules" for yourself, without affecting the core gameplay too much for it to be fun. I play civ 5 or BE like this sometimes. Each player can choose something that he feels would be "reasonable". For example, playing civ 5 without ever building National College and/or stealing techs increases challange but the game can feel like a normal game otherwise. Or - using limited number of army. It's artificial and only a workaround but for me is an option when I want to try something that the game can't offer.

 

[Naokaukodem]

That's it, I've beaten Civ6 in Deity, I simply browsed my small loading game screen, took back my first game (the one I said I abandonned because of a cultural civ and Gilgamesh), and saw it was totally feasible. However, just like my win in Civ5 Deity, if I would have competing against other players I would have been completely wiped out : Gilga started to build ton of Giant Death Robots and sent them to Arabia. During all the final phase of science victory, when i was building the exoplanet project and such, he was like : "best buddy for life isn't it ?" Ok bro, best buddies ! The funniest in it was that he seemed sincere because he didn't spied on me whereas it would have been MASSIVELY profitable to him. The cultural civ never passed its "nearly cultural victory", maybe because i attacked it and had to build armies ? However it had a ton a works of art, but my spies couldn't stole them (happened as if he had none in any city, but in the diplo screen it showed dozens and dozens of them). Is this a bug or some civ features ?

Anyway. I still think Civ6 Deity, not really talking about AI smartness, because in every game it is all relative, and compensated with bonuses, is harder to beat than Civ5, not because it's smartest (I would say it's weaker, indeed), but because of its bonuses and especially early ones, 3 cities + a bunch of units.

 

[bengalryan9]

That's it, I've beaten Civ6 in Deity, I simply browsed my small loading game screen, took back my first game (the one I said I abandonned because of a cultural civ and Gilgamesh), and saw it was totally feasible. However, just like my win in Civ5 Deity, if I would have competing against other players I would have been completely wiped out : Gilga started to build ton of Giant Death Robots and sent them to Arabia. During all the final phase of science victory, when i was building the exoplanet project and such, he was like : "best buddy for life isn't it ?" Ok bro, best buddies ! The funniest in it was that he seemed sincere because he didn't spied on me whereas it would have been MASSIVELY profitable to him. The cultural civ never passed its "nearly cultural victory", maybe because i attacked it and had to build armies ? However it had a ton a works of art, but my spies couldn't stole them (happened as if he had none in any city, but in the diplo screen it showed dozens and dozens of them). Is this a bug or some civ features ?

Anyway. I still think Civ6 Deity, not really talking about AI smartness, because in every game it is all relative, and compensated with bonuses, is harder to beat than Civ5, not because it's smartest (I would say it's weaker, indeed), but because of its bonuses and especially early ones, 3 cities + a bunch of units.

Gilgamesh is far and away the easiest civ to be friends with. He will literally form an alliance on the turn you meet him if you are able to do so. That has more to do with his agenda/personality than it does the AI behavior in general, I'd say.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Oh i was not saying Gilga was stupid, AIs have their agendas, but he was not really playing to win unlike players do, which is kinda the point of agendas i suppose.

 

[Casworon]

The AI not playing to win is a gripe i have with 4x AI in general. It's often one of the things fixed by community AI patches.

That's not going to happen with Civ Vi sadly.