Lonecat Nekophrodite
Deity
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^ I already did in this thread but no reply so far. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/mod-prevents-unit-upgrades-coding-problem.653240/
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Civ6 lacking modding appeal? Also proposed changes
- Thread starter Sword_Of_Geddon
- Start date
Moderator Action: Off topic posts moved to that thread.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I definitely would like a company like Stardock or someone to make a game like Civ that caters to the narrower audience, is more mod friendly, and more importantly would offer some competition. A game more like the Firaxis of the 90s-to the Civ4 days would make,
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Why not just play or mod Civ 4 if graphics are not an issue?
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That's a good question, with the lack of news in relation to the code source for civ6 I've been looking for alternatives since some time, but there are no perfect platform from my POV
Civ4 is possibly the best modding platform ATM for civ, but there is a core incompatibility between Python and myself, and I'd miss SQL for development and hexagons for gameplay.
Civ5 would have been perfect for me if mods were easier to develop for MP, especially scenarios.
Civ3 is very accessible but closed to scripting
Civ6 lacks the source code (and don't have enough methods exposed to Lua to compensate), and it takes much longer to integrate individual assets
Civ2 has scripting capabilities, is accessible AFAIK, but lacks the source code (and I don't know how much is exposed to scripting)
Freeciv is fully open, but I'm afraid of the time it would take to master before I could mod what I'd like. And I've not seen graphics that make me want to play it.
And from scratch, well, it won't be a hobby anymore but a full time job... And I'd prefer to keep modding as a hobby.
cvb
Prince
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Because I yearned for Hexagons since civ2proposal days?!
For me civ6 is now clearly the better game, but I would barter civ6 graphics for civ4 moddability though.
(The last time I did graphics, was the .gif of civ2's Legion@IRONworking with the golden sword.
I have near zero experience with database specifica, but do general programming since Cobol&Fortran and have no problem with yet another language doing pull-ups proving we don't need the dreaded ';'.)
.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I actually think Python is a much easier language to pick up than Lua but if you are used the latter it might be harder to switch. I forgot that Civ IV had no SQL editing of DB. You can use apps to edit XML in table form which can take the edge off.
I can't explain my dislike of Python, it's a real gut feeling. And I started modding with civ4, I had no experience with Lua before civ5.
SQL is a huge help for massive/conditional modifications in tables, and for filling multiple tables at once using a single definition table (for which I may use XML)
In my civ5 modding time, I would have never been able to add/manage so many custom units in the R.E.D. Modpack and R.E.D. WWII without the ability to define all entries for an unit with a single line of code using SQL.
SQL is a huge help for massive/conditional modifications in tables, and for filling multiple tables at once using a single definition table (for which I may use XML)
In my civ5 modding time, I would have never been able to add/manage so many custom units in the R.E.D. Modpack and R.E.D. WWII without the ability to define all entries for an unit with a single line of code using SQL.
cvb
Prince
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Understood you mean the potential mod-users, but ask myself increasingly whether you meant also the modders ...
I can name my disliked part of Python precisely, it's the "quibble" with whitecharacters: if you do a lot of copy & paste of code fragments from different sources, it can drive you insane if you create a "funny" mix of blanks & tabs (with original different values of blanks numbers
) and then have to clear up the correct insertions.Also I always try to write really clean code finally, but do on occasion "quick & dirty" tests JUST to check something out ... it helps a lot, if levels of insertion as well as numbers of whitechars don't matter and you easily
/* fohuviduafijuihihihiu fxgsd
fhfhfhfhfh*/ can comment // mhghjjz
out /*hzghjgjzgjuzgjg z */
unwanted text for a really quick test without educational pressure.
Python & Lua suffer both from their "artificial" wish to get rid of the semicolons.
Making the whitecharacters in the language significant or collect everything glossed over line breaks UNTIL "something arrives, which cannot be part of the current statement" (ie. not using explicit ';'), is tricky both.let x = 1 // Does the statement end here?
- 1 // Or does it end here?
[Edit (between LeeS & Deliverator): add some colour above]
[Edit 2 (after Deliverator's post)]:
Sorry, I didn't want express Python is worse than Lua.
Lua also depends on whitechars (or semicolon) - you have to write something between the As: x=a aaa=u
or it could mean x=aaa a=u ...
"you only must use the semicolon when it is ambiguous"
Honestly, I rather set a ; at the end of every statement (routinely, without thinking at all) than to have to check every time whether "it is ambiguous" (or prepare for some bad surprises).
Maybe some C puzzles like this:
typedef char*z;O;o;_=33303285;main(b,Z)z Z;{b=(b>=0||(main(b+1,Z+1),*Z=O%(o=(_%
25))+'0',O/=o,_/=25))&&(b<1||(O=time(&b)%0250600,main(~5,*(z*)Z),write(1,*(z*)Z
,9)));}
generated traumatic experiences?!
.
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LeeS
Imperator
I meant the mod-users. Except for the really novice mod-makers, they (we) all understood that the art was sweet and pretty and often difficult to manufacture (see unit animation art) but did not really affect gameplay other than in a quality-of-life kind of way. Most of us also understood that often it was the art that "sold" the mod.
LeeS
Imperator
I've never used Python but you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to voluntarily use a language again where I have to "control" tabs and whitespace or need to state1
instead of just directly stating
or even
for which the second example is merely scoping control, which any decent scripting language provides inherent methods to accomplish.
1or worse yet have to state variable-type and allocation just to say "x = 1"
Code:
let x = 1
Code:
x = 1
Code:
local x = 11or worse yet have to state variable-type and allocation just to say "x = 1"
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
At the risk of getting into a Python vs Lua discussion...
... is valid Python and if you use a decent IDE it will look after the whitespace for you (e.g. autoconvert tabs into 4 spaces or whatever you want). I still maintain Python is a more accessible general purpose language than Lua. It has become the language of data science and machine learning for a reason.
Code:
x = 1
y = 2
print(x+y)... is valid Python and if you use a decent IDE it will look after the whitespace for you (e.g. autoconvert tabs into 4 spaces or whatever you want). I still maintain Python is a more accessible general purpose language than Lua. It has become the language of data science and machine learning for a reason.
cvb
Prince
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I edited my post above again.
I suppose, we all use the language Firaxis chose for the regarded iteration.
Unfortunately my SQL/XML knowledge is tiny. Of course I change a numerical value in a copied correct statement / codeblock. But I would hesitate trying to compose something more complicated like
- modify for the human player the result of the Mine improvement on tiles without resource to +1production & -1food
- reduce for the human player while in government Chiefdom on all tiles that produce 3 or more of a yield type the yield by one of that type
.
Does this automatically take care of the correct levels of insertion in my current target context, if eg. one source file uses 3 blanks as insertion, another one tab (worth 4 blanks), another 5 blanks and a last one uses 2 tabs (worth 3 blanks each) for insertion and I copy&paste quasi-randomly from the sources?
I suppose, we all use the language Firaxis chose for the regarded iteration.
Unfortunately my SQL/XML knowledge is tiny. Of course I change a numerical value in a copied correct statement / codeblock. But I would hesitate trying to compose something more complicated like
- modify for the human player the result of the Mine improvement on tiles without resource to +1production & -1food
- reduce for the human player while in government Chiefdom on all tiles that produce 3 or more of a yield type the yield by one of that type
.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
In terms of art, with units I'd definitely go with Civ3, as being 2d allows much more than 3d with unit making. Now Civ4 is definitely second place, although Civ4 unit making mostly depended on reskinning, new models were created as well. Buildings, citysets and other graphics were created from scratch by talented artists or converted from other games.
Art creation and moddability is definitely number one for me. But more than anything I'd like a solid modding community that is active, I haven't seen that in awile.
Art creation and moddability is definitely number one for me. But more than anything I'd like a solid modding community that is active, I haven't seen that in awile.
Hiram
XML Plebian
I've pretty much given up Civ 6 for EUIV at this point because the modding scene for the game seems to be dead and buried at this point (for high quality mods at least). I wanted to make civs for 6 like I did for 5 but with the higher level of art making skill required it never seemed to be accessible.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
That is unfortunate. Do you have a link for your EUIV stuff? Sounds interesting Hiram.
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This has been an interesting read. I'd been previously unaware that a significant amount of modding work was being done "on the Discords", since they are not searchable like web forums are. I can see the appeal of quicker collaboration via chat when working on a project together, but have also personally experienced being able to stand on the shoulders of giants who came before me and shared their work in future-discoverable areas such as Apolyton and CFC.
The capability of modding vs ease of modding is always an interesting factor. I think part of what drew me back to Civ III was the wealth of mods by people who were drawn to it by the low barrier to entry. Civ IV is certainly more powerful, and the most powerful Civ IV mods are certainly more intricate and more different from the base game than what Civ III can offer. And although it's true that you don't need to have a software development background to mod the more recent Civ games, how easy the modding appears to be will have am impact on whether people think they can achieve their visions through modding, and thus whether they are likely to start. A gradual learning curve has its benefits.
My personal interest has historically been in expanding access to modding through greater ease of use, and to that effect I've occasionally pondered whether I could contribute towards lowering that barrier to entry, or lessening the slope of that learning curve, to Civ IV or perhaps Civ VI. Something like making a Civ III-style editor for Civ4, which would expose a lot of the functionality XML modding allows, quite possibly all of what WorldBuilder modding allows, and perhaps even some of what Python modding allows, in a friendlier package to someone who is new to modding. For Civ VI, my knowledge of what's out there has been far lower, but the learning curve has also appeared to be higher, at least when viewed from a distance, so the potential benefit may also have been greater... and of course Civ VI is far earlier in its lifecycle than Civ IV.
Admittedly, SQL being one of the primary tools does not pique my interest (although improving my knowledge of it through modding could be professionally useful), but the real question is whether I would find Civ VI as a game interesting; Civ V, alas, I did not. At this point, I suspect my path forward is likely pushing the boundaries of Civ III as far as I can, or at least far enough to satisfy my curiosity, over the next year or two, and then if I'm still interested in modding, looking at creating modding tools for Civ VII or Humankind when they are near the beginning of their lifecycles, the impact can be higher, and I will have more lessens (perhaps particularly around scripting) to draw on from experience with Civ III.
The capability of modding vs ease of modding is always an interesting factor. I think part of what drew me back to Civ III was the wealth of mods by people who were drawn to it by the low barrier to entry. Civ IV is certainly more powerful, and the most powerful Civ IV mods are certainly more intricate and more different from the base game than what Civ III can offer. And although it's true that you don't need to have a software development background to mod the more recent Civ games, how easy the modding appears to be will have am impact on whether people think they can achieve their visions through modding, and thus whether they are likely to start. A gradual learning curve has its benefits.
My personal interest has historically been in expanding access to modding through greater ease of use, and to that effect I've occasionally pondered whether I could contribute towards lowering that barrier to entry, or lessening the slope of that learning curve, to Civ IV or perhaps Civ VI. Something like making a Civ III-style editor for Civ4, which would expose a lot of the functionality XML modding allows, quite possibly all of what WorldBuilder modding allows, and perhaps even some of what Python modding allows, in a friendlier package to someone who is new to modding. For Civ VI, my knowledge of what's out there has been far lower, but the learning curve has also appeared to be higher, at least when viewed from a distance, so the potential benefit may also have been greater... and of course Civ VI is far earlier in its lifecycle than Civ IV.
Admittedly, SQL being one of the primary tools does not pique my interest (although improving my knowledge of it through modding could be professionally useful), but the real question is whether I would find Civ VI as a game interesting; Civ V, alas, I did not. At this point, I suspect my path forward is likely pushing the boundaries of Civ III as far as I can, or at least far enough to satisfy my curiosity, over the next year or two, and then if I'm still interested in modding, looking at creating modding tools for Civ VII or Humankind when they are near the beginning of their lifecycles, the impact can be higher, and I will have more lessens (perhaps particularly around scripting) to draw on from experience with Civ III.
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