Civics in FfH2

[Breunor]

But the situations I described are already possible in FfH2. You do get Hyborem Republic+Liberty all the time. I think I even built the Mercurial Gate as Hyborem once.

Right now, there is really very limited tying of the story to the game mechanics. And I think very stringent rules is actually a bad way to do it. Instead, you should shape the civilization's traits, bonuses, and penalties so that players want to play the civilization in a story-appropriate way. Telling the player he just can't do something seems inferior to encouraging the player to do the appropriate thing.

For example, I think Khazad is done really well. You have a strong incentive to stockpile large amounts of gold in a few powerful Dwarf Fortresses (heh, my other favorite game), which means Runes of Kilmorph is very valuable as a religion for you.

I think we agree on most of the points actually. I guess the way I'm thinking about it is that even if Hyborem has Republic and Liberty, it is still Hyborem and the player plays the Civ as though it is Hyborem. That is the advantage of NOT having the civics define the main characteristics of the Civilization; since the civics are important, but not so important to be defining,the flavor of the Civ being played is not harmed by the choice of civics.

If, however, the main power of a Civ and how they develop were a product of the Civics, because the civics are so defining of strategy, then I fear that these powerful civic chocies will define the strategy and play of the civ, and indeed Hyborem may not be Hyborem any more.

I want to civics to be in the middle, like choice of tech path, type of military built (magic vs footmen vs cavalry etc.) -- important enough to matter and help optimize, not so improtant that it defines the strategy.

Perhaps the ideal situation would be civics specific to each civilization. Assuming this solution is infeasible (with a few exceptions like Crusade for the Bannor), I would err to keep the power of the civics in check.

I absolutely agree that having Hyborem run Liberty and Republic is 'bad', but I can deal with it as long as I'm still feeling like it is Hyborem.

Perhaps another solution tht wouldn't be too hard to implement is to not allwo certain Civ's or alignments to use some of the civics to eliminate the more egregious cases.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[apotheoser]

Perhaps another solution tht wouldn't be too hard to implement is to not allwo certain Civ's or alignments to use some of the civics to eliminate the more egregious cases.

I have to say I am strongly against that. Let the player play the game how they want to play. If you think it is particularly egregious for certain civilization to use certain civics, then you shouldn't do it. Let everyone else play how they'd like, thank you.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I absolutely agree that having Hyborem run Liberty and Republic is 'bad', but I can deal with it as long as I'm still feeling like it is Hyborem.

Don't see why it's so bad. Republic and liberty for the demonic citizens only, of course. How do you run your nation makes no difference to how you treat others. Sure, in the lore Hybo isn't that liberal to his subjects, but I don't think that him introducing some sort of organized demonic republic is that improbable for an alternative history.

But hang on, liberty boosts culture.

Demons can be very cultured when they want...

 

[Deon]

I just wanted to note that people eat too much these days. Too many offending topics during the last period, and mainly by newcommers, lurkers or trolls. This is not right.

However I like that the OP here gave the real advices and thoughts. I don't think that Kael will implement a lot of it (if anything), but it's obvious that something will definitely get into FF, increasing it's MOAR and giving us more things to be less bored .

 

[dyvim]

Government
[...]
God-King - Low upkeep. Huge bonus to and in capital. No in capital. No in capital. Increased maintenance penalty for distance from capital, decreased for number of cities.

I suggest that only the pop of GP should be disabled... not the counter.
Meaning you'll quickly pop GP in the capital if you leave "God-King".
BTW I think these changes to this Civic looks great

Aristocracy - High upkeep. Melee, ranged, and mounted units you train start with +5 experience. (not drafted, summoned, or mercenary units). +2 in each city. Forts grow to Citadels twice as fast.

sounds cool for me. Perhaps +5 EXP is too strong. +2 can be sufficient or +1 lvl.
I think that Aristocraty only fight mounted... I think it can be a good idea to reserve the bonus to mounted units (especially if it is of +5)
I'm asking myself what it can make with aristocratic Hyppus

Magisterium - Medium upkeep. Mage's Guild: + and reduces city maintenance costs. Adepts, mages, and archmages provide .

Great except the name perhaps...
Magiocraty sounds better for me.

Theocracy - Low upkeep. No non-state spread. Unlimited Priests. Cities with state build buildings faster. Disciple units build faster.

Sounds good...

Republic - Medium upkeep. Large war weariness penalty. Upon switching to Republic, you get a free civilizational trait. If you switch off Republic, you lose that trait. Large reduction to maintenance from number of cities.

A great one... I love the idea of a trait tied to elections... It will need a lot of events to be coded but sounds great.

Legal
[...]
Vassalage - Low upkeep. Can Draft units; draftees are 0 xp Warriors. -1 in plots that produce 2 or more, except in capital city and cities with Winter/Summer Palace.

Doesn't like this one very much...
Someone has an other idea?
Didn't this one exists in Vanilla (could not remember... clue I play too much FfH?)

Bureaucracy - High upkeep. Can spend gold to rush production. Can increase the slider beyond 100%, effectively spending for . (Obviously, if the treasury is empty, you will still be forced to lower the slider until your budget is balanced).

I'm not sure that a science slider beyond 100% is a good idea

Free Cities - Low upkeep. + in largest cities. + in all cities. +1 free specialist per city.

I think this one should be part of the "Government part"

The Great Dreaming - Requires Octopus Overlords state religion. Requires Mind Stapling. Prevents hell terrain from spreading in your cultural boarders regardless of your alignment and reverts any hell terrain already in your boarders back to normal. The idea behind this is your people are so devoted to the Octopus Overlord that he uses his powers to keep your lands cool and wet.

Alternately, it could have harbors provide +1 and +1 in each sea tile but -1 in each land tile for your coastal cities. Because in the trance state of the dream your people learn to get more out of the sea, but forget how to get the most out of the land..

Could be enhanced I think...

 

[dyvim]

Labor
Tribalism - Low upkeep. Default Labor civic. No bonuses or penalties.

Forced Labor - High upkeep. builds buildings. Alters your alignment downward 1 step (Good->Neutral, Neutral->Evil). +1 from mine and quarry.

Guilds - Low upkeep. +2 and +1 from each Town. Cottages grown to Towns twice as fast. No foreign.

Caste System - No upkeep. +1 and +2 per specialist. Workers build improvements faster.

Peasant Collectives - Medium upkeep.
Windmill:+1, +1
Watermill: +1, +1
Lumbermill: +1, +1

Slavery and Arete are missing

Economy
[...]
Agrarian - Medium upkeep. +1 on plots that produce 2 or more. -1 on plots that produce 2 or more.

Conquest - builds units. +2 xp per unit. +free units. Medium upkeep.

Mercantilism - Medium upkeep. No foreign trade routes. +1 per city. +3 per specialist.

Foreign Trade - Low upkeep. +1 per city. Additional +1 in coastal cities. +20%. + from Harbor, Shipyard, and Smuggler's Port.

Guardians of Nature - Medium upkeep. +5 in all cities. -10%. +2 from Grove. +1 from Forest, Ancient Forest, Jungle. Workers can build Animal Lairs within cultural borders (the lair is chosen randomly from those appropriate to the square. Removes all other improvements).

Why Conquest is a part of the Economy?

 

[Breunor]

Deon, Lone Wolf,

If people don't mind having at first glance weird choices, then I think the argument not to overpower the civics is even stronger.

Having thought about it, I agree with both of you that these combos shouldn't be excluded, you are right. I like myself playing with flavor, but I can anyway -- no reason to hard code it. I can simply choose not to play Hyborem that way.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[dyvim]

Cultural Values
Expediency - No upkeep. Default Cultural Value. No modifiers or penalties.

Hearth & Home - No upkeep. Requires Festivals. The threshold for the next population increase is reduced. +1 per luxury resource. -20% military production.

Xenophobia - Cancels all current agreements and disables trade. +1 for foreign units within borders (invisible or hidden nationality). Diplomacy penalty –1 for ‘you’re impossible to work with’ or ‘you think you’re better than us’. Removes all foreign culture and prevents your cities from flipping. Cities gain +50% defense. Walls add +2 culture. (I kind of love the flavor of this, but am not sure if the benefits outweigh the penalties at all.)

Duty - Low upkeep. +1 from each Temple, Courthouse, and Basilica. Small reduction in maintenance costs.

Fortune and Glory - Low upkeep. Great Generals can be produced by military victories. +free units. Increased gold from blockades and pillaging.

Excellence - Medium upkeep. All specialists produce +1. In addition, Bards produce another +1, Sages produce +1, and Engineers produce +1.

Sacrifice the Weak - Medium upkeep. Requires Ashen Veil state . Can Sacrifice population to rush production. Citizens eat 1.5 instead of 2 food. -20%. +10%. +4. Moves alignment down one step (Neutral -> Evil).

Knowledge - Low upkeep. Library, Mage's Guild, and Alchemist Lab: These buildings provide more +, +, and get built 50% faster.

Justice - High upkeep. Requires Order state . +1 per . Causes in civilizations without Justice. Moves alignment up one step (Neutral -> Good).

Justice shouldn't be reserved to Order... and Empyrean (at least)?
Doesn't "Justice" have to be a part of "legal" ?
And BTW it is really powefull... removing the hammers sounds a good choice

Where can we find "Arete" ? This one is missing... Didn't you talk of it to be more a "cultural value?

Foreign Relations
Undercouncil

Overcouncil

Crusade - Bannor only.

Empyrean special civic : Enlightened Harmony - Provides membership in Overcouncil, +1 per , +5% with Elder Council, and +1 diplomacy bonus for 'you are trustworthy' or something like that.
(may need a drawback or something)

Council of Esus special civic : Capital Influence - Provides membership in Undercouncil, +1 per , the option to 'buy' votes of the Undercouncil, price depending on how many members would vote against it, the ability to bribe units (is this in the game somewhere? It's in vanilla BtS, right?). Maybe something more that earns money rather than just letting you spend it.

Only problem I see is that you can no more be a member of the Overcouncil (or any other) if you are in Crusade...
That can be logical, but it sounds a bit hard if you've ever been an Overcouncil member and choose to DOW an overcouncil ennemy...

 

[apotheoser]

Justice shouldn't be reserved to Order... and Empyrean (at least)?
Doesn't "Justice" have to be a part of "legal" ?

No. I'm guessing you're not a native English-speaker so you have to understand that "Justice" doesn't necessarily mean "legal justice". "Justice" is the concept of "moral rightness", of the "right thing" being done.

As such it is particular to Order - Empyrean has a slightly different (but related) set of values.

And BTW it is really powefull... removing the hammers sounds a good choice

Yeah, I think reducing them might be appropriate. But removing them entirely defeats the purpose of the civic.

Where can we find "Arete" ? This one is missing... Didn't you talk of it to be more a "cultural value?

Arete is basically Greek for "being the best you can be", basically, your personal "Excellence." I didn't see why any civic should be randomly named after its ancient Greek counterpart. Other societies have valued "excellence", like feudal Japan, but we don't use their words for it.

Thus, Excellence thematically fills the role that arete did.

Of course, as someone else pointed out, I forgot to give Runes of Kilmorph a religion-specific Civic when doing this.

Only problem I see is that you can no more be a member of the Overcouncil (or any other) if you are in Crusade...
That can be logical, but it sounds a bit hard if you've ever been an Overcouncil member and choose to DOW an overcouncil ennemy...

Yes, Crusade and Overcouncil were meant to be exclusive. I'm not sure what your objection is with choosing to DOW an Overcouncil enemy. You can already do that right now, even if you're on the Overcouncil together.

 

[Deon]

Now you can vote not to DoW on you for all council if you have enough votes, and with your mechanic you're basically a pincussion.

 

[apotheoser]

Now you can vote not to DoW on you for all council if you have enough votes, and with your mechanic you're basically a pincussion.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just tired but I don't really understand what you're getting at here?

 

[Earthling]

Some comments about the "flavor/lore" ideas floating about - I definitely am not for taking choices away from other players. However the underlying way in which the AI behaves is shared by everyone and rather hard to mod. So I recognize that the player of course can play the civ however they want, but maybe an option is good for the AI? (Side note- I still find a few things player side a little exploitive - tricks to keep religious heroes, switching religions all the time, etc... but in principle I'm ok with player freedom). Because the way things are now the AI doesn't and won't go both ways - either it's coded for "optimal" gameplay and adopts whatever it can for the sake of power/challenge, or it's coded to prefer its "lore" related civics/religion. The way things are I don't think it's really enough either way - AI is not trying to be optimized but then the player can still get the AI to convert at the drop of a pin if it hasn't already chosen an off-religion or something anyway. But an option would probably be a lot of work and of course I'm just one voice in the community - if it were just me I'd go with stronger AI preferences to their lore and leave the (human) player be. (and of course random personalities is already available anyway )

 

[Imuratep]

No. I'm guessing you're not a native English-speaker so you have to understand that "Justice" doesn't necessarily mean "legal justice". "Justice" is the concept of "moral rightness", of the "right thing" being done.

The difference is clear, but the problem is the Order is actually about legal justice, not about the moral rightness behind the laws. Junil wants his followers to obey his laws without a second of doubt while Empyrean is more about moral justice. The Order does NOT change alignment to a good because of its moral positions, but because of its strict opposition against demons.

Citations from the manual:

Where The Order values law, The Empyrean values wisdom. Adjudication started from the teachings of Lugus and punishment is not based on adherence to a labyrinthian codex of laws, but from direct consultation on the merits of each case.

Junil, the eldest of the Gods, had promised to stay apart from the conflict in Creation. No one knows why he decided to change that, some say it was to combat the influence of the Ashen Veil, others that it was jealousy. Regardless of his reasons, he promised salvation to the least of men and asked only one thing in return: unquestioning obedience.

The other theme of The Order is its conflict with demons. The principle reason why The Order is rightly labeled good is because they are willing to die to protect others from demonic oppression.

Perhaps MC can help us here. He has all FFH lore in his mind, so he should know best.

 

[apotheoser]

The difference is clear, but the problem is the Order is actually about legal justice, not about the moral rightness behind the laws. Junil wants his followers to obey his laws without a second of doubt while Empyrean is more about moral justice. The Order has NOT a good alignment because of its moral positions, but because of its opposition against demons.

Citations from the manual:

Perhaps MC can help us here. He has all FFH lore in his mind, so he should know best.

Innnnteresting. It doesn't really change my answer to "shouldn't Justice be a Legal civic", but it does suggest that what I thought of is better suited to the "Empyrean" state , not Order.

But, I also feel the current "Social Order" represents what you're describing only moderately well. I'd be interesting if an Order -only civic did something with Law mana. Maybe "makes every kind of mana count as Law mana in addition" or some bonus use for Law mana.

 

[KillerClowns]

The way I read it (disclaimer: note my title), the Order seeks (in the words of vanilla Civ's paraphrase of the Code of Hammurabi) "to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, so that the strong should not harm the weak." They have clearly defined laws, a bit harsh but usually not usually completely insane, and clearly defined punishments. You'll rarely find a corrupt Order judge (I imagine accepting bribes would be severely punished by our standards, possibly even with death), though you might find a corrupt Empyrean judge. And while a sufficiently charismatic villain could escape his fate in the Empyrean, or bend the laws to allow a certain amount of dirty deeds (neutral alignment), the Order would not allow him to do the same (thus why the former can be neutral, but not the latter). Unfortunately, Justice (with the scary capital J) has no room for mercy...

 

[Ribusprissin]

Finally - Some Concrete Suggestions

I like these pretty much as written.

 

[Isotope]

I made another thread in a Orbis subforum regarding this thread with my opinions.
thread

 

[apotheoser]

Slavery and Arete are missing

As I said later, arete is Greek for "Excellence". "Forced labor" is euphamism for "slavery" . Although it no longer lets you capture slaves in battle.

Why Conquest is a part of the Economy?

Same reason it is in in FfH2 right now: it represents the government appropriating food and resources from the economy to produce more military. Or the military running the economy for its own benefit. Something like that.

 

[dyvim]

"Forced labor" is euphamism for "slavery" . Although it no longer lets you capture slaves in battle.

lol didn't notice this one... honestly I prefer "Slavery" and I think that this civic lets you capture slaves in battle is very important (and fun BTW)

Same reason it is in in FfH2 right now: it represents the government appropriating food and resources from the economy to produce more military. Or the military running the economy for its own benefit. Something like that.

OK... I'm convinced

 

[apotheoser]

I suggest that only the pop of GP should be disabled... not the counter.
Meaning you'll quickly pop GP in the capital if you leave "God-King".
BTW I think these changes to this Civic looks great

Oh... interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

sounds cool for me. Perhaps +5 EXP is too strong. +2 can be sufficient or +1 lvl.
I think that Aristocraty only fight mounted... I think it can be a good idea to reserve the bonus to mounted units (especially if it is of +5)
I'm asking myself what it can make with aristocratic Hyppus

Often, when playing FfH2 or BtS, I find that +2 xp from civics is not enough to motivate me to pick them.

Also, if the XP bonus only applied to mounted units, the civic would only be useful if you had Horses. I don't seem to have Horses in a large percentage of FfH2 or BtS games. The XP bonus reflects the idea that the aristocracy spends a lot of time practicing military stuff, and so is better able to lead units. Not necessarily that the units themselves are entirely made up of aristocrats.

Great except the name perhaps...
Magiocraty sounds better for me.
Sounds good...

I never liked the word "Mageocracy", actually, which is the traditional D&D spelling I found. The e+o just looks wrong to me. Besides, "mage", "magister", "magus", "magician", et cetera, all come from the same root word of "mag" in some archaic language.

A great one... I love the idea of a trait tied to elections... It will need a lot of events to be coded but sounds great.

Yeah, I like the elections events too, especially if they do more than change traits.

Doesn't like this one very much...
Someone has an other idea?
Didn't this one exists in Vanilla (could not remember... clue I play too much FfH?)

Vassalage was the name of a vanilla Civ 4 civic, but this one is done differently. As I said earlier, in its current form its best used only temporarily. Maybe that should change.

I'm not sure that a science slider beyond 100% is a good idea

How come? It'd have to be temporary, or you'd have to be stealing a lot of gold via pillaging and blockading. I'm not sure you could possibly steal enough gold to keep it going, anyway.

I think this one should be part of the "Government part"

I disagree, because "Free Cities" in government doesn't tell you how the cities are ruling themselves. Do the cities have elections? Are the cities ruled by the God King's servants, but with great independence? Do the free city's churches pick their own bishops to rule theocratically?

WHO in the free city is in charge of each city?