Civics: need modification?

[Aussie_Lurker]

Korn, that sounds MOSTLY right, but I feel certain that Oligarchy and Monarchy had more penalties. Even if it is correct, I think that attempting a SMAC-like 'perfect balance' to each civic choice is not neccessarily ideal-as their are what have been described as 'situational' bonuses/penalties-such as the ones I mentioned above-as well as the upkeep and city maintainance costs associated with them.
That said, if your analysis of the governmental civics is accurate, do you think they are FAIR? If not, how might you suggest I go about changing them to make them more so? Yours is an opinion I value most highly (along with DH_Epic, Optimizer and Colonel Kraken) and would thus be VERY interested in hearing your thoughts.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Here is another thought, Korn, you could also make Fascism have a building associated happiness bonus-like forced labour camps and jails-and use Python to ascribe a Fascism or Police State specific wonder like The Gestapo/Secret Police.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[korn469]

Aussie,

I know virtually nothing about python, and that's why I haven't used it yet. However, I'm quickly learning how to use xml. I think you're doing a great job, and I don't want you to stop! However, I disagree with the way you assigned values to your governments. I think that you gave each government too many modifiers, and that most of the modifiers aren't strong enough to clearly differentiate the various governments. Right now Oligarchy looks like the strongest government, because it doesn't have any downsides, and the rest of the bonuses are basically in line with the other governments. Police States can build military units a little faster, and Parliamentary Democracies will get great people slightly quicker, but with such low modifiers players would barely miss out on any benefits by remaining in Oligarchy.

I too want to give the player interesting choices (with some grounding in reality but that would always come second to gameplay), so hopefully we can collaborate. I'd love to do a universal civics mod. I'm just afraid that I will probably differ with most people because I don't really see a need to add tons more slots (either by new categories or lots of new choices in each existing category). Maybe six by six block at most (as opposed to the five by five block we already have). Right now civ4 has 3125 unique civic settings counting defaults, or 1024 unique civic choices not counting defaults. Even if people tried twenty unique settings per game not counting defaults, it would take them about 50 separate games to use everything. I would like a system that avoids having tons of almost indistinguishable differences for a system that has fewer well defined choices.

So I think adding one more category is a good thing, but adding more than that is a bad thing. One more choice per category could probably be a good thing, but we might have problems coming up with unique stats, especially considering the limitations forced on us by the editors. How does that sound so far?

 

[korn469]

Aussie,

We cross posted, but I had already thought of adding a Secret Police Wonder that would give fascists governments +2 happiness from jails. I just hadn't thought of how to implement it yet. So we're on the smae track.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I confess that I have over-estimated the value of the various percentages-especially those relating to worker rates and free military units. Its funny that I didn't see the imbalances until after you displayed them to me in that format. I plan to finish up the ideology side of the civics tonight, after which I will return to the governments. Thanks for the input though.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I have been looking over all the bonuses and penalties, and have decided to make the following modifications. What do people think, will this be more balanced?

Dictatorship
tech: writing
cost: low

Bonuses
+20 percent military production
+10 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage 
+10 percent hammers
-20 percent war weariness
specialists +3 gold
-10 percent city number cost
Workshops +1 Hammer
Farms +1 Food

Penalties
-2 happiness in largest cities
+10 percent city distance cost
-2 health in every city
-20 percent worker speed
specialists -1 research

Oligarchy
Tech: Priesthood
Cost: Medium

Bonusues 
+10 percent military unit production
+5 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
draft 1 units per turn
-10 percent war weariness
+1 trade route
+10 percent food in every city
specialists +1 gold
specialists +2 culture
plantations +1 commerce
villages +1 hammer

Penalties
+10 City Number Cost
-10 percent Gold Commerce in every city
-1 Health in every City
-10 percent Worker speed

Monarchy
Tech: Monarchy
Cost: low

Bonuses
+10 percent great people points
+10 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
draft 1 unit
+1 happiness in largest cities
-10 percent war weariness
+1 trade route
+10 percent commerce in every city
specialists +3 culture
Pastures +1 food
Winery +1 commerce


Penalties
+10 percent City Number Cost
+1 Gold per Military Unit
+10 percent City Distance Cost

Republic
Tech: Constitution
Cost: Medium

Bonuses
+10 percent great people points
-10 percent city number cost
+1 health in every city
+20 percent worker speed
+10 percent military production
+2 happiness in largest cities
+2 trade routes
+10 percent hammers in every city
specialists +3 gold
can gold rush
quarries +1 hammer
towns +1 commerce

Penalties
+10 percent city distance cost
+1 gold per military unit

Police State
Tech: Fascism
Costs: High

Bonuses
-10 percent city distance cost
+30 percent military production
+20 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
draft 2 units per turn
-2 percent war weariness
+5 percent food in every city
+10 percent hammers in every city
specialists +3 research
mines +1 hammer
plantation +1 food

Penalties
+10 percent city number cost
-3 health in every city
-10 percent worker speed
-1 happiness in largest cities
-1 trade route
-10 percent commerce in every city
specialists -2 culture

Parlimentary Democracy
Tech: Democracy
Cost: High

Bonuses
+20 percent great people points
-10 percent city distance cost
+2 health in every city
+20 worker speed
+10 percent cottages to towns growth rate
+2 trade routes
+10 percent food in every city
specialists +3 research
can gold rush
farms +1 commerce
towns +1 food

Penalties
+10 percent city number cost
-10 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
+1 gold per military unit
+10 percent war weariness

I should point out that the major factors that would impact on the decision to go monarchy, oligarchy or dictatorship will be war/peace status; Number of cities vs. distance between the capital and provinces, the importance of science over culture/gold and the size of your treasury-as oligarchy as more expensive to maintain than either dictatorship or monarchy.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[korn469]

Dictatorship v Oligarchy

Dictatorship
cost: low

+10 percent hammers in every city
+10 percent military production
+10 percent Science Commerce in every city
specialists +2 gold
Farms +1 Food
-20 percent city number cost
-10 percent war weariness
Workshops +1 Hammer
+5 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage

Oligarchy
cost: medium

+2 happiness in largest cities
+1 trade route
+1 health in every city
+10 percent food in every city
specialists +1 research
specialists +2 culture
villages +1 hammer
draft 1 units per turn
-10 percent city distance cost
+10 percent worker speed
plantations +1 commerce

 

[Optimizer]

I think we should try to keep down the number of effects from each civic to 3 or less.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK then, so what 3 effects do you think I should keep Optimizer-and do you mean 3 total, or 3 bonus and 3 malus? Thanks for your input, it really does mean a lot !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[korn469]

I agree with optimizer we should use a small number of modifiers. Something like 2-4 positive effects and 1-2 negative effects. I used two positives and one negative for the most part in my mod. Also I think that all percentage should be ten percent or greater so we can really notice a change.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You're probably right-that was certainly the original plan in my 'Broader_Civic' spreadsheet. I think I just got carried away.
So, my thoughts are that-at the most basic-government civics should effect the following: maximum efficient city size (health/happiness), efficiency of city production in gold, hammers, food and commerce (not specialist commerce-that should be an ideology thing I reckon) and the ability to raise and maintain an army. The thing is, should I retain the government effects on terrain improvements, or is that just excessive?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Dictatorship
tech: writing
cost: low

Bonuses
+20 percent military production
draft 2 units
+20 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
+10 percent hammers in every city

Penalties
-2 happiness in largest cities
-2 health in every city
-20 percent worker speed

Oligarchy
Tech: Priesthood
Cost: Medium

Bonusues
+10 percent military unit production
+10 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
+1 trade route
+10 percent food in every city

Penalties
-10 percent Gold Commerce in every city
-1 Health in every City
-10 percent Worker speed

Monarchy
Tech: Monarchy
Cost: low

Bonuses
+10 percent great people points
draft 1 unit
+1 happiness in largest cities
+1 trade route
+10 percent commerce in every city

Penalties
-10 percent science commerce
+1 Gold per Military Unit
+10 percent distance maintainance cost


Republic
Tech: Constitution
Cost: Medium

Bonuses
+10 percent great people points
+10 percent worker speed
+2 happiness in largest cities
+20 percent commerce per city

Penalties
+10 percent city distance cost
+1 gold per military unit
-10 percent military unit production

Police State
Tech: Fascism
Costs: High

Bonuses
+30 percent military production
-1 gold per unit
+20 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
-25 percent war weariness



Penalties
-2 health in every city
-1 happiness in largest cities
-1 trade route

Parlimentary Democracy
Tech: Democracy
Cost: High

Bonuses
+20 percent great people points
+2 health in every city
+10 Science Commerce
+2 trade routes

Penalties
-10 percent free military unit upkeep population percentage
+1 gold per military unit
+10 percent war weariness

So, does that look a little better?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

I agree that most civics should try to have three effects, and no more. I know this is a niche mod for really keen players like myself... but there's a certain finesse to game design.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Right, here we go guys, we now have Civic_Mod v0.000000002 . This time I have gone back and made all the changes to the Government civics AND added all the Ideology civics. As always, if you have any suggestions to improve it-or are having technical problems with it-then please let me know. Here is a quick rundown of what the different ideological effects are-in a similar format to the one used earlier by Korn. Enjoy

Survival
tech: None
cost: None

Bonuses
-20 War Weariness
+1Food, +1 Hammers from Camp

Penalties
-1 Happiness per City

Plutocratic
Tech: Currency
Cost: low

Bonuses
+20 percent Commerce per city
+1 Trade Routes
Unlimited Merchant and Artist Specialists
+1 Happiness from Markets

Penalties
-10 percent Food per City
-10 percent Culture per City

Feudalist
Tech: Feudalism
Cost: Medium

Bonuses
+10 percent Food per City
+10 percent Military Production
+1 free trade route per City
Unlimited Priest Specialists
+1 Happiness from Castles

Penalties
-1 Health per City
-10 percent Science Rate per City
-1 Happiness in 6 Largest Cities

Militarist
Tech: Metal Casting
Cost: Medium

Bonuses
+20 percent Military Production
+2 Free Experience
-25% War Weariness
+1 Happiness from Barracks

Penalties
-10 percent Culture per City
-10 percent Science per City

Socialist
Tech: Communism
Cost: High

Bonuses
+20 percent Hammers per City
+2 Health per City
+1 Happiness in 6 Largest Cities
+1 Happiness from Hospitals

Penalties
+10 percent # of Cities modifiers
-10 percent Culture Commerce

Fascist
Tech: Fascism
Cost: High

Bonuses
+10 percent Culture Commerce
+2 trade routes per city
+10 percent Science Commerce
+1 Happiness from Jails

Penalties
No Foreign Trade
-3 Happiness in 6 Largest Cities

Theocratic
Tech: Theology
Cost: Low

Bonuses
+2 State Religion Happiness
+20 percent State Religion Production
Unlimited Priest Specialists

Penalties
-1 Non-State Religion Happiness
-20 percent Science Commerce

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Aussie, I will certainly be giving this a look over when I get the opportunity. Thank you very much, sir!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, from my consideration of the Legal and Economic Civics changes I want to make, it occurs to me that there is SOMETHING missing-and that is <TradeRouteCommerce>. They have <TradeRouteYields>, which will prove very useful to me, but it doesn't seem like it would have been too hard to have implemented a similar schema for trade routes to add directly to wealth, culture and/or science. I think this may have made Mylon's job a lot easier too .

Oh and, have a look at this dictionary definition of Mercantilism

mer&#183;can&#183;til&#183;ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m&#251;rkn-t-lzm, -t-)
n.
The theory and system of political economy prevailing in Europe after the decline of feudalism, based on national policies of accumulating bullion, establishing colonies and a merchant marine, and developing industry and mining to attain a favorable balance of trade.

That just doesn't seem to fit with the in-game effects of Mercantilism (in fact, it would make more sense applied to State Property IMO). If anything it would suggest more foreign trade routes, not less, and possibly greater gold yields from workshops, mines and quarries. I would be very interested to hear what you guys feel should be the in-game representation of Mercantilism.


Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Holistic]

The way I understood Mercantilism was that it was based on the theory that there was a limited amount of "wealth" in the world, and that nations must try and accumulate as much of it to themselves as possible. Hence the need to have favorable balance of trade (and many colonies). No foreign routes makes "sort of" sense as a way to represent mercantilism in-game. Though, would (almost) equally well apply to the Soviet project (maybe State Property and Mercantilism got mixed up somewhere along the line?).

Your civics-system looks quite promising, although as others have noted, a bit over-complicated.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I certainly wouldn't expect a huge uptake of my mod by the general population, but I hope the more 'fanatical' amongst us will find it acceptable. Plus, remember that it is still nothing more than a 'work in progress' .

To reiterate, I feel that each civic category will achieve a certain thing over everything else. i.e.

Government-effects city size and efficiency, and ability to raise armies and fight war.

Ideology-effects the kind of specialisation you have and what makes your people happy.

Organisation-effects distance and # of city maintainance, as well as the yield and commerce modifiers of your cities (Capital vs. Non-Capital in particular)

Legal-effects happiness and city maintainance costs, and the commerce yields of your specialists.

Rights-effects the health of your cities and the growth rates of surrounding improvements and-like government-can effect both city and specialist efficiency.

Labour-effects worker speed and the yields of certain terrain improvements.

Economy-Primarily effects city commerce and Trade Route Yields.

Religion-obvious really, what is the nature of your state religion (if any) and how does your nation relate to other faiths.

So long as you keep these in mind, then understanding my civic system should be quite easy.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[RED DIAMOND]

Well modded Civics have revitalized the game for me. I set it up for 9 civics per category. I tried to make it so you get a couple of choices when tech opens civics. for instance Salvery is abhorent to me, so I added the less abhorent civic share cropping. The great thing is to see certain AI's going for the new civics while others are mixing and matching for the moment much more.

I was stoked when Chairman Mao switch to my new Wartime civic and a turn or two later proceeded to kick Ghandi's butt all over the place. I let him take a couple of cities then bribed him to get him to lay off Ghandi. He promptly switched his economic civic after the war. I love the open way the game is made and the way it is so easy to mod in great stuff like civics and have the AI react.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

That just doesn't seem to fit with the in-game effects of Mercantilism (in fact, it would make more sense applied to State Property IMO). If anything it would suggest more foreign trade routes, not less, and possibly greater gold yields from workshops, mines and quarries. I would be very interested to hear what you guys feel should be the in-game representation of Mercantilism.


Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Good point, and I made the exact same one earlier in the thread. Seriously, though, I had thought the best way to represent mercantilism would be to increase the revenue from mines and plantations. No foreign trade routes simply does not make sense. Mercantile nations worked hard to make sure their goods sold abroad.

But, actually, you can still trade off excess resources. So, in effect, you can still gain "bullion" for your goods. Maybe cutting off the "automatic" trades simulates having very tight control on guilds and the economy in general (which mercantile nations did!). Interesting stuff!

In game terms, it may very well make sense to increase gold from mines and such, not allow foreign trade routes, but still gain favorable trades (gold per turn!) from excess resources!



Btw, that sounds great, Red Diamond!