Civics: need modification?

Thank you very much, DH. I really appreciate your input on this matter.

City States
This was definitely in my consideration when building the various columns. I tried to remain generic enough to keep from stating specific government types per se and allow for more variations on the same theme. Thus, "Federalism" can incorporate the notion of City States (if given the proper other Civics choices!) and can also incorporate a Confederate States of America type system as well. This was my goal: flexibility.

Decentralization: Default
The default of which column?

Imperialism
I don't see this so much as a form of government as it is a manner in which you choose to use your governmental power. Thus, many of the systems I have set up (possible combinations) could indeed become "Imperial" and would definitely lend themselves as such.

Nationalism
Nationalism is in my list. :)

Globalization

Excellent point! I had been thinking about eliminating up to 3 religions and using those three to represent the spread of different ideals. This would make a great one! The "tech" for it would come in the Industrial Era, of course. Can you think of a way it should propogate itself? What would be the benefits? What other "ideals" could be added in place of a couple of the religions?


Thanks for your help! I'd love to continue to bounce off ideas with each other.
 
To me, it's a question of scope. The 'glue' that holds together a civilization is key and has always changed things. It's not the government. It's not the political system. But it's the very ideology of the civilization itself "What ties these cities together to be considered part of the same system?"

Ancestry: No bonuses from a very vague social glue. (Default)

City States: +2 hammers in all cities. Low Maintainance. (Good early civic for builders.)

Imperialism: Replaces maintainance distance costs with distance related unhappiness. High Maintainance. (Good early civic for expansionists.)

Feudalism: +2XP for all units, +2 gold from all cities. +20% defence to all cities. Low Maintainance. (A alternative civic for the medieval era.)

Nationalism: +25% war weariness for all nations. Can draft units. Losing a city generates free units. Low Maintainance. (A mid game turning point. Turn the tide against the aggressor by hitting them with war weariness and cities harder to take.)

Globalization: +2 unhappiness in all cities. +% gold in all cities based on how many cities in the world share your civics. e.g.: you control 30% of the world, Caesar controls 30% and shares 50% of your civics, and Khan controls 40% of the world with but 25% of your civics. That's 30%+15%+10% = 55% extra gold. High maintainance. (If you can afford the happiness hit, you might be able to offset the maintainance costs and turn this into a roaring economy.)

It's not what each civic does on its own, but how each stands in relation to one another. It's the choices they present between one another. The way Nationalism becomes the 'safe' civic once it comes along. The way imperialism gets hit the hardest by Nationalism's war weariness boost. The way globalization is only an option if you can handle the maintainance and unhappiness, and it requires diplomacy to take full advantage. The way feudalism, city states, and imperialism offer differing approaches to everything.

The goal of these civics is to really reflect the impact of these ideologies. Nationalism really is one of the top 3 social movements in all of history.
 
I'd like to see the civics options reinforced with Religion Types. For example (in no particular order):

Pluralism - Resembles religions that had multiple gods, dedicated to various aspects of life. Examples of such religions would be the many ancient Mediterranean belief systems (Greek, Roman, Egyptian...) and many of the native American Indian religions.
Culture +1, Happiness +1 - Comes from the rich legends and traditions surrounding the mythologies.

Mortal God - Religions that worshipped the Emperor as a God. (Japan, Incas, Egypt...)
City Production +25% - The fear of the ruler makes people more obedient and work harder.

Philosophical Ways - Represents cultures where a philosophy became the way of life and took the place of actual religion. Confucianism and perhaps Taoism as well would fall under this category. (many Far Eastern and South Asian cultures)
Culture +2, War weariness +50% - Such cultures were often culturally very rich and also rather peace-inclined.

One True God - "Modern" monotheistic religions that swear in the name of a single, immortal god. (Christianity, Islam)
Religion spread +20%, Happiness +1, Happiness -1 from Non-State Religions - These type of religions often have strong missionary traditions but easily conflict with other religions about being the only right one.

Atheism - Self-explanatory. Though not an actual religion, many nations have endorced or enforced atheism as their "state religion". (many Communist nations)
Science +1, Culture -1 - Endorses scientific facts over religious beliefs.

These, and especially the values given, as just examples and may or may not require more careful thought and balancing for optimal gameplay. But the point is that these would allow the simulation of the differences between the religions without insulting anyones feelings. It would be up to the player to decide how to practice his religion.

EDIT: Note that these would form a new civic category of their own. It is possible, as shown here.
 
DH_Epic and Excel, thank you very much! Great stuff. I'll have to ponder things a bit and come back with some more ideas. Most excellent.

A couple of questions:

(1) Do any of you know if it's possible to add a 6th column to the civics choices to give us more versatility?

(2) Is it possible to give negative food/commerce modifiers to a civic choice, just like Civ3 did for the starting governments? I assume it's just as easy as adding a negative integer instead of a positive one . . .
 
Excel, I REALLY like your Religion Types ideas. I'll have to mix and match them with what I already have.

Currently, I have 7 civics in each of the 5 categories. Would it be too much to have 8 in each category? Is 7 good? Should there be less? I like more choices! :D
 
DH, your ideas are kind of like a national, social ethos. Very interesting. I do have a question: Isn't Globalization more of a national policy than a social "glue"? I imagine it could be considered both: you (society) believes their ways are the best and should be spread around the world. Instead of gaining gold from those who share your civics under Globalization, shouldn't you get happiness --as it's more of a social mentality than a national/economic policy. I don't know. I'm just playing with ideas.

I will mention again that I really love the idea of spreading certain social ideals (like Free Speech, Universal Suffrage, Emancipation, Democracy, Communism, etc) via the religions. There would still be 4 main religions (I think that's plenty) and use the other 3 for some social "glue" type force that may spread across the world.

What do you think of this?
 
It is possible to add an entirely new civics column. See this thread. I would put the Religion Type civics to that new column, so they'd complement the current Religion civics and not replace them.

I do believe that you can add negative modifiers to the civics. The vanilla system uses mainly bonuses, but iirc there is a negative modifier against war weariness already in place (Police State?).
 
Exel said:
It is possible to add an entirely new civics column. See this thread.

This is good news!

DH, your ideas are kind of like a national, social ethos. Very interesting. I do have a question: Isn't Globalization more of a national policy than a social "glue"? I imagine it could be considered both: you (society) believes their ways are the best and should be spread around the world. Instead of gaining gold from those who share your civics under Globalization, shouldn't you get happiness --as it's more of a social mentality than a national/economic policy. I don't know. I'm just playing with ideas.

The way I see it is it's not just the social glue but the expansionist glue. To kind of explain things. Forgive me, because I'm trying to find ways to articulate it as I go along. The words don't always match up entirely to what I'm thinking.

Maybe the column should be called "Expansionism":

Ancestry: A primitive notion that we basically expand by giving birth and planting settlers. Represents the ancient age mentality, of settlers and so forth.

City States: We expand by setting up diplomatic relations between city states who share common goals and offer support to one another. A more coordinated system than ancestry, and nearly as peaceful.

Imperialism: We expand by killing or imprisoning foreign leaders, and planting our own governors and army. The definitive expansionist civic.

Vassalage: We expand by a series of military agreements. Rather than kicking your ***, you agree to be my b****. You pay taxes and supply military units. In exchange, you get protection under our larger army. Less involved than imperialism, but also less dominant.

Nationalism: Nationalism is almost intrinsically anti-expansionist. I can tell we're from the same nation because we dress similar, have the same language, the same values, or maybe the same religion. This idea fractured huge empires, and formed ferocious unity among citizens. This civic becomes more and more mandatory once it comes along.

Globalization: We don't expand officially. Our borders might not shift very much at all. We expand by spreading our way of life, our ideas around the world. Kind of like an ideological vassalage: you change your civics to ours, we form stronger diplomatic and economic ties, and we promise not to kick your ***. (For the USA, this is the Free Market. For the USSR, this is Marxism. For Osama Bin Laden, this is Islam. They don't want to conquer other nations, but merely persuade them to their way of life.) This is the civic for a dominant superpower who can afford to focus on international change, instead of domestic concerns.

Anyway, sorry to keep bombarding you with long strings of information... but my point -- Globalization moves you away from national concerns. To some degree, you start neglecting your own people because you become wrapped up in trying to change the world. Hence, a nation that switches away from Nationalism to Globalization should only do so because they think they're powerful enough to afford it. The way I represented this was that a Globalist loses happiness, but might make up for that if they have a dominant ideology in the world. USA and Europe can be said to be Globalists and are benefiting greatly from it with all the internal dissent it causes. Cuba cannot afford to be globalist, although at one time perhaps they were. This is the tension I want to create -- between Globalization and Nationalism.

Again, the civics stand in relation to one another. Of course, this puts realism and historical simulation first, and gameplay second. Ultimately, these would have to be balanced with gameplay in mind, otherwise the game could become really unfun. But the basis is history.
 
LOL

I did have another thought. There's an alternative to imperialism and cooperative city states. That's the notion of family rule, which fits into this column.

I differentiate it from the idea of monarchy -- rule by one person, usually a king. It's more the expansion / social glue thought -- your cities are governed by close family members, and you might even make important diplomatic deals through agreements like marriage!

I can't help but get carried away, but if I were to give examples of each of the civic choices:

Decentralization: The default. Early civilizations.

City States: Ancient China. Ancient Greece. (I rule Dallas, you rule Houston, but we cooperate when need be.)

Family Rule: Classical China. England, off and on. (My brother in law, the Prince of Houston, will follow me towards Christianity because we are kin.)

Imperialism: Classical Rome. The Ottoman Turks. Genghis's Mongolia. Hitler's Germany. (Install a governor in Houston, and tell those Houston bastards to pledge allegiance to me!)

Vassalage: Medieval Europe (for the most part). Medieval Japan. England, on and off. (Tell the Duke of Houston that if he pledges his sword to me, we will see to it that he will never be vulnerable to the filthy Cubans!)

Nationalism: Most modern nations, from America to Vietnam. (We all pledge allegiance to the Texan flag, and ensure that Texas can exist independent, strong and free!)

Globalization: The USSR. USA since 1950. Modern Europe soon, and maybe even China soon. (We believe that the whole world needs to be a bit more like Texas, but we have no interest in conquest.)

Okay okay, I keep ranting. I think that might be the last one. for a while, anyway.
 
Very intriguing thead, Colonel Kraken-I only wish I had sufficient time to read through everything. Having played a number of games, though, something has come to mind in relation to the economic civics. The first is that switching to Mercantlism is really ONLY a genuine option if you are alone or surrounded by Xenophobes, yet you don't get ANOTHER economic civic choice until Economy comes along-thats a HELL of a long wait-if you ask me.
Another point is that I was once told about 'opportunity costs' in regards to the civics choices-as opposed to the flat bonus/penalty system of SMAC's SE. I am beginning to see this after playing a few games-though a few obvious ones come to mind. For instance, Freedom of Speech is GREAT if you have lots of Towns, and Representation is great if you have plenty of specialists in your cities-and if you ever end up at war in this case, then the choice to switch to police state can be an incredibly gruelling one-because of 'lost opportunities'. That said, though, I do think that the maintainance costs of these civics are fairly unbalanced-and could be the best place to balance them out. For instance, democratic governments are great for encouraging economic growth and science-but all of those politicians and their staff-not to mention constant elections-are VERY expensive, thus these two should have a medium to high maintainance cost IMO.
Freedom of Speech is fine for the most part, but there should definitely be a war weariness penalty for this civic, because the flip-side of free speech is the possibility of angry protests when wars start.
That said, I also see nothing wrong with adopting a SMAC approach to civics either-though Civ4 definitely has WAY more concepts that Civics interact with, making the process more complex.

It may interest people to know that I have begun a long-term attempt at creating a mod based on the ideas I outlined in my 'Broader Civic System' spreadsheet and thread. If people want, they can check it out here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130020

BTW, does anyone here know if you can make civic systems DIRECTLY impact the level of UNHAPPINESS in a city (i.e. + or - UNHAPPINESS)? I really want to be able to impact this rather than simply being restricted to happiness alone.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Awesome! I was wonder when the great Aussie_Lurker was going to grace this thread. ;)

Thanks, sir. This is exactly the type of interaction that can lead to great mods! :)
 
OK, just a quick summary. In terms of Government-the key differences I see are these. In Dictatorships, Despotisms, Monarchies and Republics, you are effectively 'entrusting' the rule of the nation in the hands of an individual, wheras in Oligarchies, Collectives, Democracies and Juntas power is more in the hands of a group. Each I feel has its benefits and penalties. The former are good for 'whipping the people into shape' (figuratively or literally) and 'getting the job done), and they are betteron average-for going to war. The downside is that the individual ruler tends to stifle original thought and debate and, to a greater or lesser degree, has a harder time holding together larger nations-without setting up the neccessary underlying infrastructure. The latter, OTOH, are less effecient, due to conflicts of personalities-though this does lead to greater debate and imaginative new ideas. They are also better at maintaining a larger number of high growth cities. Obviously, each of the governments differ in various ways but-at their core-I might venture that 'Single Rule' states might get, on average, greater work rate, lower war weariness, and greater yields from merchants and engineers, but higher 'unhealthiness' and/or 'unhappiness' and/or maintainance costs and lower yields from artists and scientists. 'Collective Rule' states might get, on average, lower worker rates, higher war weariness and lower yields from merchants and engineers, but enjoy better yields from Scientists and artists, and a better starting level of health, happiness and maintainance costs. Note that this is merely a BASE position-and doesn't account for any yield changes for tile improvements or the like.
Anyway, when I get a chance, I will next look at 'Ideology/Philosophy'.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
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