Civics: need modification?

[Holistic]

Irony on the internets is difficult without smileys (which I probably should use more often). Unless you were ironic too, sorry 'bout that.

Regardless. I didn't notice you had moved Organized Religion off Monotheism. While Priesthood probably makes more sense (it is rather difficult to "organize" a religion without a clergy), I'd recommend moving it back to Monotheism. Priesthood is already quite useful for Oracle-tech grabs, and moving Organized Religion and its production boost off the "pure" religion-branch of the tech tree would perhaps devalue the branch more than is "reasonable". This might make deliberately holding off discovering Masonry & Monotheism (for using Great Prophets to grab Civil Service) all the more viable strategy. Then again, OR costs a lot of upkeep and it's not the "key"-civic or anything. Just a thought.

Other options than Priesthood or Monotheism for Oligarchy-enabling techs would be Currency (since accumulation of wealth often "creates" oligarchs), Bronze or Iron Working (rise of the warrior caste/class).

By the way, have you considered adding a commerce-yield bonus (of say, +34%) from trade routes to Laissez-Faire? This would encourage the use of this civic in conjunction with open borders, since this would make the -10% commerce less noticeable. Oh, and the upkeep should probably be changed to No upkeep (since the government presumably does not interfere at all with the economy).

 

[akeaneau]

Civilization needs to look more at governments that could happen as well as ones that have...Don't know if anyone's already mentioned this, but a couple of good ideas for government civics are:

Direct Democracy - this could replace universal suffrage because its alot more distinct from representation. This is where people all come together and basically have a referendum on everything, like the ancient Athenians. It could have similar bonuses to universal suffrage but I imagine there would be penalties as the civilisation got larger (or perhaps just a high upkeep) because it would be so hard to control and count the voting of everyone everywhere - this penalty could be mitigated by the internet. The Greeks would have this as a favoured civic.

Kytocracy - Rule of the state by the legislature. Judges are in charge. No new laws are made, but they could always reinterpret the current laws.. Now that'd be an original government. Maybe one effect could be to increase the bonuses from the legal civics.

There's a great list of forms of government at wikipedia, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government

 

[ToV]

Holistic, I was not sure if you were ironic or not, but either way, I did find the situation a bit humorous.

You make a good point about Organized Religion. Please remember that my sence of balance is questionable at best.

Other options than Priesthood or Monotheism for Oligarchy-enabling techs would be Currency (since accumulation of wealth often "creates" oligarchs), Bronze or Iron Working (rise of the warrior caste/class).

By the way, have you considered adding a commerce-yield bonus (of say, +34%) from trade routes to Laissez-Faire? This would encourage the use of this civic in conjunction with open borders, since this would make the -10% commerce less noticeable. Oh, and the upkeep should probably be changed to No upkeep (since the government presumably does not interfere at all with the economy).

1) I already have two extra trade roughts. Is that not enough?
2) No Upkeep sounds too overpowering, unless I add in some really nasty things.
I'm nor sure about bronze or iron working, but currency sounds good.

 

[ToV]

akeaneau , those are some original ideas. I'll take a look at the link and what I can find.

 

[ToV]

Here is my latest list. Look it over.

New Civic Ideas

Government:
Despotism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest cites
+25% distance maintenance (“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2> (Who want&#8217;s to do back to despotism?)

Hereditary Rule
Monarchy
High Upkeep
+1 happiness per military unit in city
+25% commerce in capital

Oligarchy
Currency
Low Upkeep
-25% City distance maintenance (A step up from despotism)
+25% City number maintenance (The elite clash for the highest position)

Representation
Constitution
Low Upkeep
+3 science per specialist
+3 happiness in 6 largest cities

Police State
Fascism
High Upkeep
+50% military unit production
+2 experience to new units
+2 happiness per military unit in city (Secret police keeps order)
-50% war wariness
<Anarchy Length 2>

Universal Suffrage
Democracy
Medium Upkeep
+1 hammers and commerce from towns
Doubles growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages


Organization:
Village
Low Upkeep

City State
Polytheism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 1 unit per turn?
-25% city maintenance costs (Cities take care of themselves)
-25% culture per city (To slow border growth so cities are more isolated)

Imperial
Monarchy
Low Upkeep
+10% production in capital
+2 happiness from palace
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities

Vassalage
Feudalism
High Upkeep
+2 experience to new units
Free units <+6 base, +20% pop>

Federal
Paper
Medium Upkeep
+2 happiness in largest cities
-25% city maintenance costs

Nationhood
Nationalism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 3 unit per turn
+2 happiness from barracks
+1 culture from specialists
-1 happiness per 25% foreign nationality (xenophobia, anyone?)


Legal:
Barbarianism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities (&#8220;Under barbarism, the strong take what they want from the weak&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2> (Who would volunteer to go back to this civic?)

Decree
Writing
Low Upkeep
+25% culture
+1 happiness from palace

Bureaucracy
Civil Service
High Upkeep (Bureaucracy becomes corrupt and inefficient over time)
+60% hammers in capital
+60% commerce in capital

Jurisprudence
Constitution
Medium Upkeep
+25% culture
+10% science
+1 happiness from courthouses and jails

Freedom of Speech
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
+100% culture
+ 50% Great People birth rate (The government does not suppress ideas)
+ 50% war wariness (There would not have been protests during the Vietnam War if the public had not seen all of those nasty war images)


Labor:
Tribalism
Low Upkeep

Slavery
Bronze Working
Low Upkeep
Can sacrifice population to rush production <2 unhappiness per pop rush>
+1 hammer for quarries (Where slaves commonly worked)
+1 commerce for plantations (Where slaves commonly worked)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Serfdom
Feudalism
Low Upkeep
Works build improvements 50% faster
+1 commerce from farms (feudal lords squeeze out every penny from their serfs)
-50% growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages (urbanization isn't encouraged)
-1 happiness from castle
<On a side note, a modder should also make the castle slighly better>

Caste System
Code of Law
Medium Upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists, and merchants in cities

Emancipation
Democracy
Low Upkeep
May spend gold to finish production
Gives Civs without Emancipation unhappiness <400>


Economy
Decentralization
Low Upkeep

Mercantilism
Banking
High Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
-50% distance maintenance (Many European colonial empires ran mercantilism, so this seemed a better place for the bonus)
+25% commerce from markets, grocers
+1 commerce per specialist

Natural Monopoly
Economics
Low Upkeep
+2 trade routes (Many business incentives)
+20% production and -1 happiness from forge, factory (Factories are worked overtime to increase production- and profit)
-6 health (Industrialists do not care about the environment. They see it as something to be used and abused)
-15% commerce (The corporation takes more for themselves)

Regulated Market
Industrialism
Medium Upkeep
+1 trade route per city (Some business incentives)
+10% production from forge, factory
+1 commerce, production, and science per specialist (Some government investments)
+3 Health

State Property
Communism
Low Upkeep
+1 Free Specialist (Investments can be directed to specific ends)
+1 Food from watermills, workshops
-25% Commerce trade yield (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)
-(1 or 2) Trade Routes (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)

Environmentalism
Ecology
High Upkeep
+6 health in all cities
+25% production from recycling plant (Nation recycles as much as possible)
+1 happiness per extra health (Citizens pride themselves in keeping the environment clean. In game terms, there is now a logical reason for all of the extra health)
+1 food from all tiles already producing food <if not possible, +1 food from farms and watermills> (Hydroponics offer larger yields)


Religion
Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Monotheism
High Upkeep
Can build missionaries without a monastery
Cities with State Religion construct buildings +25% faster
+1 extra happiness in cites with state religion

Theocracy
Theology
Medium Upkeep
Halts the spread of non-state religions
+2 exp in cities with state religion
+10% military production with state religion (Easier to recruit a Holy Army)
-1 happiness per non-state religion (Self-explanatory)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Pacifism
Philosophy
No Upkeep
+100% Great People points in cities with state religion
+1 gold per military unit
+100% war wariness (Self-explanatory)
Less free military units <-5 base, -25% pop>(Increased military costs have more effect)

Freedom of Religion
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
No state religion
+1 happiness for every non-state religion in a city
+25% science
-10% culture (The &#8220;Morally lax&#8221; society described in the Civilopedia)

Credit to Armandeus, Aussie Lurker, Holistic, korn469, JBG, Dubmetender, TheJopa, and Dryhad
for their ideas.

 

[Holistic]

(I'm not sure my ideas are new...)

1) A penalty for Universal Sufferage.

Remove the gold rushing ability, give it to Emancipation instead. If you do this, increase upkeep to Low for Emancipation.

2) Perhaps something else for representation

Nahh. While not perhaps very realistic, the civic is very "balanced" and offers one of few (perhaps the only) alternatives to commerce-based approach to teching. Only change this civic if you find another way of doing this.

3) Decide: Unitary or Imperial. I think that Unitary is a better description (One state, no devisions, the opposite of federal).

Well, the main difference would be that Imperial implies rule over other countries, which Unitary does not. Also, Nationhood somewhat covers unitary states (albeit at a later stage in-game).

4) I would like this civic to give even more war wariness after Mass Media is researched. Is this possible?

Hm... I really don't know, but there appears to be a setWarWeariness() function, so it might be doable even without the SDK.

5) Serfdom, I changed the -1 happiness from farms. I need a replacement. (A building)

I'd suggest castles -- if they were of any use (well, other than for defense and very little culture). Courthouses perhaps?

6) Something else for Caste System, if appropriate.

If you really want to change Caste Systems, the functionality of certain free specialist classes should be retained. The only civic for which it would make better sense than CS is -- State Property. Perhaps, instead of a free specialist, add this functionality to the civic, and make the upkeep high. Horribly unbalancing? Just might be. Also, this would make the unlimited specialists appear much later in-game than otherwise.

Moreover, I have no idea what to give Caste System instead. Perhaps a "No upkeep" (social conventions serve to uphold the order) and +75% Great People Points regardless of religion (more leisure time for the upper castes)? This, in turn, would require the Pacifism GPP-bonus to be reduced to +75%. Horribly unbalancing? Nahh. This would of course increase the overall GPP-bonus from civics, but would mean "only" two-three extra great peoples (or something to that effect). With longer anarchy periods, a change of two civics to achieve +150% GPP just might not be worth it.

7) I really want a different name for Lassie-Faire. Corporatism did not work, but I want a name that suggests the corporations being in control of the economy.

It's Laissez-Faire, and good ol' Capitalism just might do the trick. Well, one without antitrust laws. Natural Monopolies, if you feel Capitalism is too loaded to use. Given that it's State Property instead of Communism/Socialism, NM:s just might be a better suggestion.

 

[ToV]

Remove the gold rushing ability, give it to Emancipation instead. If you do this, increase upkeep to Low for Emancipation.

Seems OK, but I would then need something to replace it for Universal sufferage, and a real-life justification for moving it to Emancipation. Until I find both, I will leave it as is.

I'd suggest castles -- if they were of any use (well, other than for defense and very little culture). Courthouses perhaps?

Calstes might work.

It's Laissez-Faire, and good ol' Capitalism just might do the trick. Well, one without antitrust laws. Natural Monopolies, if you feel Capitalism is too loaded to use. Given that it's State Property instead of Communism/Socialism, NM:s just might be a better suggestion.

Good a name as any. Although, I did find something intresting looking at the Thesaurus. A synonym of Monopoly is Cartel. Interesting coincidence...

Finally, just forget I said anything about Caste System.

 

[Dryhad]

Natural Monopoly
Economics
Low Upkeep
+2 trade routes (Many business incentives)
+25% production from forge, factory (Factories are worked overtime to increase production- and profit)
-2 health (Industrialists do not care about the environment. They see it as something to be used and abused)
-10% commerce (The corporation takes more for themselves)

I've tested this and it's too powerful. AIs are dropping their favourite civics to use this. Even without the + production, it's still too good.

 

[ToV]

I've tested this and it's too powerful. AIs are dropping their favourite civics to use this. Even without the + production, it's still too good.

My sence of balance is about zero, so thanks for pointing this out. What do you suggest instead?

 

[Dryhad]

My sence of balance is about zero, so thanks for pointing this out. What do you suggest instead?

Not sure. Perhaps extra unhealthiness. I'll fiddle around with the drawbacks and see.

 

[Holistic]

The reason why I suggested moving gold-rushing to Emancipation, ToV, is that it is the only labor civic that suggests paid labor as the norm. Slaves and serfs are not paid in cash, and it doesn't in itself "follow" from Tribalism nor Caste System either. Also, this would rid the game of the potential, paradoxical choice between gold- and pop-rushing.

Regarding the balance of Laissez Faire/NM, the +2 trade routes "should" stay (although it can be rather overpowering). The SMAC equivalent SE-setting had a penalty to the Police-category, which would translate to unhappiness and/or extra war weariness.

Another suggestion, which involves many changes, would be for forges, factories and coal plants to give one unhappy face each under NM (workers' rights and well-being are low on the list of priorities), balanced by a corresponding happiness bonus from said buildings, from either Emancipation or a sixth, "Unionized", labor civic. This would render the unhealthiness-penalty somewhat redundant, though.

Terminology-wise, I (also) suggested "Oligopoly" earlier, which might be a still better term than Natural Monopoly. Then again, it (perhaps needlessly) repeats the "Olig" from Oligarchy.

 

[ToV]

Thanks, Holistic. Your points sound sound. I do not have a chance to change anything right now, but I will change it as soon as I can.

 

[Dryhad]

The reason why I suggested moving gold-rushing to Emancipation, ToV, is that it is the only labor civic that suggests paid labor as the norm. Slaves and serfs are not paid in cash, and it doesn't in itself "follow" from Tribalism nor Caste System either. Also, this would rid the game of the potential, paradoxical choice between gold- and pop-rushing.

Perhaps the cottage growth thing should switch to Universal Suffrage in that case? Just to give it something extra.

Regarding the balance of Laissez Faire/NM, the +2 trade routes "should" stay (although it can be rather overpowering). The SMAC equivalent SE-setting had a penalty to the Police-category, which would translate to unhappiness and/or extra war weariness.

I think unhealthiness is an appropriate drawback. The war-weariness in SMAC was justified by rebelious workers because it was a "POLICE" penalty and not technically a war-weariness modifier, so it will be difficult to use the same justification. Unhealthiness makes sense and has a bigger effect that the SMAC equivalent.

 

[ToV]

Perhaps the cottage growth thing should switch to Universal Suffrage in that case? Just to give it something extra.

Of cource! Why didn't I think of that! I have know posted my changes above.

 

[Holistic]

I think unhealthiness is an appropriate drawback.

Oh, I meant the "Police"-penalty in addition to the unhealthiness. Then again, unhappiness from particular buildings have pretty much the same effect in the end.

 

[Dryhad]

Oh, I meant the "Police"-penalty in addition to the unhealthiness. Then again, unhappiness from particular buildings have pretty much the same effect in the end.

Yeah, the thing is I think there are enough drawbacks already and we should probably work on making them harsher rather than adding more. Otherwise the whole thing will be drawbacks with just one (albeit powerful) advantage.

 

[ToV]

This is why I increased the health penalty to -6. (This may be too much)

 

[Dryhad]

This is why I increased the health penalty to -6. (This may be too much)

I tried it with -5 and that seems pretty balanced. At least, Mansu Musa, Tokugawa, and Mao Zedong weren't adopting it in favour of their prefered civics this time. The other civs waited a little before adopting it as well. I'd say -5 is balanced.

 

[Buckets]

I've found this thread inspiring and thought i'd post my own take on the civics. I've tried to take a less is more apporach (only added one civic) and only changed what i thought was non-intuitive or unbalanced.

The main principles i've been trying to acheive are: balance within the categories, lateral synergies, and intuitive (historically relevant) effects. Not to mention overall game balance. Any feedback is appreciated.

General game changes are:
- trade routes now give 25% food and hammers by default (ie - for every 4 coins in a trade route, you also get 1 hammer and one food.)
- draft unhappiness penalty is now reduced to one. It's harsh enough you lose 2-3 pop, along with having to be in nationhood (giving up other benefits).
- low and high civic upkeep has been modded to .5 medium and 1.5 medium, respectively.
- gold hurrying is increased 33%

Civic categories are all the same. Default civics are as-is, (low upkeep). Religion civics are all as-is.

Government civics:
Hereditary Rule: Monarchy (medium upkeep) +1 happy per military unit, unlimited priest
Representation: Philosophy (low upkeep) +3 happy in largest cities, +3 sci per specialist
Police State: Fascism (high upkeep) -50% war weariness, +50% military unit production
Universal Suffrage: Democracy (low upkeep) +100% town growth, +50% food from trade routes (i feel this rightly represents an inflow of immigration)

Legal Civcs: (I view this category as "rights & freedoms", so i did not think bureaucracy really fits in.)
Vassalage: Feudalism (medium upkeep) +2 xp per unit, free units (same as before)
Citizenship: "A Legal system in which peoples rights are earned through wealth or service to the government" Civil Service (low upkeep) +1 free specialist in all cities, +50% city distance cost
Nationhood: (as-is) Nationalism (low upkeep) +2 happy from barracks, can draft 3 units
Free Speech: (as-is) Liberalism (low upkeep) +100% culture, +2 commerce from town

Labour Civics:
Slavery: (as-is) Bronze Working (no upkeep) can hurry by whip!
Serfdom: Feudalism (low upkeep) +100% worker rate
Caste System: (as-is) Code of Laws (medium upkeep) unlimited merchant, scientist, artist
Emancipation: Constitution (high upkeep) gold hurry, penalty for civ without (half default)

Economy Civics:
Mercantilism: Banking (medium upkeep) +100% food from trade routes, no foreign routes (this in effect gives all cities a 2-3 food boost, more depending on distance & size, and harbours. I feel this represents a colonial economy, being especially useful to new far-flung cities.)
Free Market: (as-is) Economics (low upkeep) +1 trade routes
State Property: (as-is) Communism (no upkeep) +1 food at workshop & watermill, no distance costs (actually it's -100%, so combinded with citizenship (+50%) it's effectively 50% of the original cost)
Globalization: "3000 mile salads, cheap third world goods, and cheap distribution." Combustion (Medium upkeep) +50% hammers from trade routes, -2 health per city.
Environmentalism: Medicine (high upkeep) +6 health, +1 happy from forest & jungle, +25% science

There you have it. As you can see, i was very interested in building a trade based economy option. It may be too much, in which case i'll probably end up modding industrial/modern production costs up a bit. Again, thanks for the inspiration!

 

[ToV]

Buckets , your ideas seem OK, although there are a few points I would like to address.
1. Unlimited Priests make more sence under organized religion OR theocracy.
2. Emancipation should not be high, because what is the government paying for? Nothing! There is nothing to pay upkeep for! (Realistically, not in game terms)
3. Globalization would fit better under another tech, such as industrialism, or corporation.

The rest seem OK, althought they may need a little improvement. In particular, I like the +25% science under environmentalism. I guess that represents investments into alternative energy, ext.